Neoforcer Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) First, let's be honest... if SWGEmu is to get ANY degree of traction outside of the original player base there's going to have to be blatant piracy of Sony/Lucasfilm/Disney IP (i.e. the original game). It doesn't matter if they discontinued it, its still piracy and something Disney would have to come down on like a ton of bricks because of the sheer value of the Star Wars IP. They already got a go ahead from both Lucas and SOE prior to Disney IP in 2006 as long as they do not charge sub fees or make people buy the game then both Lucas and SOE said go ahead. So Disney now has to hold to that since Lucas/SOE said yes before Disney. So no piracy one bit since it is open source development of new code. By taking donation there not breaking an agreement made with SOE and Lucas arts. i just checked and they contacted Disney already and got a canned email back from them. So i don't think Disney cares about open source code of SWGEMU one bit Edited January 16, 2015 by Neoforcer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 ravagergate is much more specific to this drama:D RaveGate. Says it all, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I don't think any of that ideally matters though. Disney own the IP and unless SWGEmu has some sort of binding contract with Lucas prior to that then anything SOE and Lucas said means pretty much nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I don't think any of that ideally matters though. Disney own the IP and unless SWGEmu has some sort of binding contract with Lucas prior to that then anything SOE and Lucas said means pretty much nothing. They do i just looked into it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) First, let's be honest... if SWGEmu is to get ANY degree of traction outside of the original player base there's going to have to be blatant piracy of Sony/Lucasfilm/Disney IP (i.e. the original game). It doesn't matter if they discontinued it, its still piracy and something Disney would have to come down on like a ton of bricks because of the sheer value of the Star Wars IP. IP Law requires Disney to enforce its trademarks and copyrights or lose the protection offered by IP law. Selective enforcement is one of the easiest ways to lose your claims to protected IP which would allow anyone to make Star Wars related items without having to pay them a dime. Unless the operation is so small as to be beneath their notice (ex. they can't be expected to hunt down every last Star Wars fanfic and art project in the dark crevices of the internet) or falls under fair use laws (i.e. they are reproducing only a small portion of the material for certain ends such as news stories, reviews or various derivative works) then they HAVE to come down on it with cease and desist or other more serious action. They are not going to risk losing a multi-billion dollar investment because some gamers want to play a discontinued Star Wars video game. They can CLAIM reverse engineering and having no control over who accesses their server-side client, but that doesn't actually matter. What matters is... 'at $400 an hour for legal representation, how long can you afford to fight Disney's army of lawyers who can afford to drag the proceedings out for years just to make an example of you?' IP law is SERIOUS BUSINESS for those involved in it. You tread on it at your own peril. I'm not sure what point your trying to make here, but I certainly think it is sensible to say that Disney could shut it down at any time. I agree with that. They have not and likely will not do so.....and nor will Sony. They are both CLEARLY aware of the game's existence and the requirement to purchase or possess the original full game, combined with the lack of an official server seems to have given them the consideration to let it slide....for now. They did not approve the product officially, but put forth terms that the emulator (and all emulators for the discontinued game) would have to follow in order to avoid sanction (though they reserved the right to change their minds in the future)...and that included no subscription, no profit, no dramatic changes to the actual game files, and it could not be a copy of the most recent modern build. Also folks would have to own a copy of SWG. I don't see that changing any time soon unless there is some explosion in players....which I doubt. Edited January 16, 2015 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigredo Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 wow... at this point the conversation should switch to power vs main stat augments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 wow... at this point the conversation should switch to power vs main stat augments! Pshaw! +Presence augments all the way. But you have to put them on your companion or they won't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigredo Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Pshaw! +Presence augments all the way. But you have to put them on your companion or they won't help. ..ohhhh /bow that is rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 There are no parallels between your "examples" and this situation. You call it a harmless act, I call it obvious exploiting to gain an advantage. As to a differing opinion on cheating...really? You take advantage of an unintended bug to gain rewards from an ops boss you didn't earn, and you don't consider that cheating? There isn't a gray area here, it's black and white. To even think that there is a possibility that this isn't cheating is amoral as hell. And appropriate action is whatever EA/BW says it is. My opinion on that is just that, an opinion. My opinion was stated some pages back considering the likely actions against accounts. But saying people are defending cheaters for some altruistic reasons? That's ludicrous. There aren't many people who will defend exploiters out of the kindness of their heart, which means most of the defenders of the exploiters have a stake in this somehow, be it they themselves cheated or they are afraid their raid team will disappear because most of them cheated or some other similar reason. To say you are defending people who broke the rules because you have some high minded sense of justice looks like a smoke screen. Advantage? Earn? It's a game -- as long as you're not taking things directly from other players or gaining in unfair advantage that removes the fairness of a direct confrontation, there's no such thing as cheating, just as there's no such thing as cheating in a single-player game. Morality is about the impact your actions have on others -- no harm, no foul. The parallels between the other situations and your continued insinuations and statements that those who are skeptical of many reactions must be "cheaters trying to hide or deflect" are quite clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Thank you for bringing some proper perspective here. ETA: Yes, I remember this from the first thread as well. Guess we know where people's priorities still are. Yeah... I find it so strange that there are long-standing PvP cheats (and PvP is where such things are actually cheating, because there's a clear advantage gained in what's supposed to be a fair contest between players), the chats are ongoing cesspools with outbursts of garbage so moronic ignorant and offensive that I have a special chat tab call "No General Chat" on all my characters, harassment and griefing are ongoing issues, there are poachers everywhere, there are bugs that haven't been fixed since release... ... and some extra not-BIS gear and some extra mats getting into circulation is what ENRAGES some players to the point where some of them are demanding sweeping punishments, willing to see the innocent snatched up to get the "guilty", and at least one poster would rather see the game go down in flames than let a single person who used the exploit even once get away with it. I just don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopperLord Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Interesting how some people here don't see any issue with looting a boss chest whilst not actually being in the raid that killed said boss. For me that's a fundamental principle of raiding - that you get a reward for contributing to the kill. Perhaps times have changed and it's now all about getting as much "phat lewtz" rather than enjoying the shared experience and to hell with the wider consequences. What's certain is that the game will be the poorer for it if this sort of behaviour is seen to be tolerated. I don't see any issue in looting a boss I didn't kill if that's what is happening by everyone else for weeks. I'm still upset that you guys didn't let me in on this when it started. I'm all about the phat lewtz!!! the more the merrier, and right now I'm not merry at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babanathie Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Advantage? Earn? It's a game -- as long as you're not taking things directly from other players or gaining in unfair advantage that removes the fairness of a direct confrontation, there's no such thing as cheating, just as there's no such thing as cheating in a single-player game. Morality is about the impact your actions have on others -- no harm, no foul. The parallels between the other situations and your continued insinuations and statements that those who are skeptical of many reactions must be "cheaters trying to hide or deflect" are quite clear. That's not the definition of morality. Morality is a system of values or rules of conduct held by an individual or a society. In addition, there can be an impact. Two players, equally skilled, want to join a progression raiding team. One cheated and has maximized geared; the other did not cheat and only has decent, but acceptable, gear. Which member gets invited to the progression group? Impact in a social game does not have to revolve around direct confrontation; any system relying on social interactions, which is a focus of a MMO, is more complex than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 That's not the definition of morality. Morality is a system of values or rules of conduct held by an individual or a society. In addition, there can be an impact. Two players, equally skilled, want to join a progression raiding team. One cheated and has maximized geared; the other did not cheat and only has decent, but acceptable, gear. Which member gets invited to the progression group? Impact in a social game does not have to revolve around direct confrontation; any system relying on social interactions, which is a focus of a MMO, is more complex than that. in some cultures "if you arent cheating, you arent trying". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 just as there's no such thing as cheating in a single-player game. There is not? Why then do almost every site/magazine that has published them for as long as I can remember call them cheats then? Cheats - cheat codes. I remember often back in the days of when gaming was much harder than it is now and I was but a child/teenager looking up cheats or buying magazines solely for the cheats section. Seems your definition is just that ... your definition. Don't take my word for it though - try a dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cheat You've done a lot of that though in these threads, try to put your flawed view across as though it were fact ( witch hunters being people wanting to punish cheats and the people that cheated as not actually being cheats at all ). Morality is about the impact your actions have on others -- no harm, no foul. Again, completely wrong. Have a read again: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/morality Sure in YOUR morals such actions might be perfectly acceptable but to many others in this thread it is not just as by you saying they aren't cheats and there are no moral issues we would question your actual lack of morals or what value there are in your morals. Yeah... I find it so strange that there are long-standing PvP cheats (and PvP is where such things are actually cheating, because there's a clear advantage gained in what's supposed to be a fair contest between players), the chats are ongoing cesspools with outbursts of garbage so moronic ignorant and offensive that I have a special chat tab call "No General Chat" on all my characters, harassment and griefing are ongoing issues, there are poachers everywhere, there are bugs that haven't been fixed since release... ... and some extra not-BIS gear and some extra mats getting into circulation is what ENRAGES some players to the point where some of them are demanding sweeping punishments, willing to see the innocent snatched up to get the "guilty", and at least one poster would rather see the game go down in flames than let a single person who used the exploit even once get away with it. I just don't get it. I tried to further the PVP cheating subject - fact is the community just doesn't care or it's not as big of an issue as you and the other people who keep trying to equate this issue to the PVP win trading would have us all believe. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=790316&page=3 I got a few posts in response on the subject and was otherwise ignored yet here we have well over 300 pages of posts on this subject. It's like comparing apples to oranges and quite frankly it's not starting to come across as nothing more as deflection of the issue. People care more for this issue, they feel it does effect them, get over it and move on if you don't think so and if you did nothing wrong ( which you won't say one way or the other - which is out of curiosity or will you not say? ) then there is nothing of interest to you here. Go to the above topic and start bringing the PVP cheating to the forefront for season 4 as I tried to since you seem to think it's such a big deal that must affect you personally? Otherwise all this nonsense defending the exploiters and attacking those who want to see justice is nothing short of trolling as it would seem you have no interest in benefiting the game - you just want to fight with people on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolunart Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Yeah, I thought this was called Exploitgate I vote for LockedGate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) I don't PvP and I can count the number of Ops I've run in the two years I've played SWTOR on one hand, so neither is a personal issue to me. I'm not even sure I know where the entrance to Ravagers is... pretty sure it's on Rishi since there's a terminal near the Imp landing pad with that mission (I think). The reason people keep bringing up the PvP issues is that those issues are actual cheating, not just short-circuiting the precious grind cycle. So far, no one can explain why using the exploit was wrong, other than some vague hypothetical "harm" resulting from some raid leader somewhere making a gear-based choice, that many other raiders have blown off as silly. Most of the arguments about why this is supposedly wrong come down to "It's wrong because it's cheating and cheating is wrong because it's cheating and cheating is wrong." In fact, the more people try to explain why this is such a big deal, the less of a big deal it seems. Edited January 17, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babanathie Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 in some cultures "if you arent cheating, you arent trying". I wasn't siding on either side, even if it seems that I did pick a side. The poster used an grossly incorrect definition of morality. I was mostly posting to correct that. The part about a possible impact is... less theoretical from experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blurch Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Let me say; yes, I am one of the people who did the exploit. I know, shame on me. Here's my feelings on it. First of all, I paid to get early access to 3.0 for a working expansion. What I got was laggy and broken. Half the quest/dailies on Rishi were broken to the point were you can't complete them or restart the game during them. Yavin wasn't much better with missing items on the maps. Mobs would reset during fighting and final battles and were broken to the point were a fight couldn't be completed. I die at least a dozen times before I give up on only to find out that it was glitched. The topper on the cake was n Sunday when I found out that Tuesday was going to be the beginning of the free training. So, after spending millions of credits on repairs and training only to find out I could have gotten training for free. I never received an apology from EA/BW. Would have been different if they gave us some sort of compensation. With the 3.0 I had to finish leveling, but I was unable to because everything was so badly glitched. I had to revert back to the old one just to get to level 60. I had to do that with a few characters until they were able to get the stuff fixed a week later. When I did do the exploit, which was only twice, on the few 60's I have, it was under hard mode so all I got was 192 gear instead of the 198 gear. Which put me back to where I was gear wise before 3.0. What I did do didn't hurt anyone or interfere with their gaming. I used the gear for my characters and didn't RE anything because I needed it all. Nor did I sell the mats because I also needed them when for when I will RE the stuff after I gear up my characters. If EA/BW touches my account or takes any action against me I'm canceling my account. With them taking no action on the previous exploits and releasing an extremely broken expansion, I feel they took my money and ran. I really don't care about there TOS anymore. Another thing that has me rather upset is how the game looks like Star Wars meets Pirate of the Caribbean with the new armor. They did the same thing with the Gree when it came out, but it was Tron based with basically Mouse ear hat, since Star Wars was bought by Disney. I signed up to play Star Wars and not Star Wars meets Disney. Like I said before, its no excuse for the exploit, but after they way EA/BW treated us early assessors, I really don't care. Between how they treated this cluster and what EA has done before with other games, I'm very hesitant about buy another EA/BW game again. I'll be more than happy to give my money to someone else with a working product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeDeatH Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) i don't pvp and i can count the number of ops i've run in the two years i've played swtor on one hand, so neither is a personal issue to me. I'm not even sure i know where the entrance to ravagers is... Pretty sure it's on rishi since there's a terminal near the imp landing pad with that mission (i think). The reason people keep bringing up the pvp issues is that those issues are actual cheating, not just short-circuiting the precious grind cycle. So far, no one can explain why using the exploit was wrong, other than some vague hypothetical "harm" resulting from some raid leader somewhere making a gear-based choice, that many other raiders have blown off as silly. Most of the arguments about why this is supposedly wrong come down to "it's wrong because it's cheating and cheating is wrong because it's cheating and cheating is wrong." in fact, the more people try to explain why this is such a big deal, the less of a big deal it seems. this x1000000000000 Edited January 17, 2015 by TimeDeatH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryancuster Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 While we are at it lets ban everyone that runs around mobs in FPs and then gets the boss loots. These paths were not intended and are therefor an exploit. You are getting loot without doing the designed work just like ravagers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 So far, no one can explain why using the exploit was wrong, other than some vague hypothetical "harm" resulting from some raid leader somewhere making a gear-based choice, that many other raiders have blown off as silly. Most of the arguments about why this is supposedly wrong come down to "It's wrong because it's cheating and cheating is wrong because it's cheating and cheating is wrong." It's wrong because BioWare says it's wrong. They get to make the rules, and when someone tries to circumvent those rules then that is considered cheating. Doesn't matter who it does or does not affect. If I don't follow the rules when playing Solitaire, I am still cheating even though no one else is affected by my actions except for myself. Whether you want to consider something cheating or not is irrelevant. Those who makes the rules get to decide that, as does the general society who decides to accept those rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 It's wrong because BioWare says it's wrong. They get to make the rules, and when someone tries to circumvent those rules then that is considered cheating. Doesn't matter who it does or does not affect. If I don't follow the rules when playing Solitaire, I am still cheating even though no one else is affected by my actions except for myself. Whether you want to consider something cheating or not is irrelevant. Those who makes the rules get to decide that, as does the general society who decides to accept those rules. I agree, they make the rules, and they get to decide what they mean, and how and when to enforce them. However, in all cases, "the rules" and "morality" are not a matched overlapping set. I know that some don't agree with this at all, but, unless you're in a solitaire contest against other people, nothing you do in solitaire is cheating. It's a game, it's meant to enjoyed, and that's all. Whatever floats someone's boat. No harm, no foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theeko Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I agree, they make the rules, and they get to decide what they mean, and how and when to enforce them. However, in all cases, "the rules" and "morality" are not a matched overlapping set. I know that some don't agree with this at all, but, unless you're in a solitaire contest against other people, nothing you do in solitaire is cheating. It's a game, it's meant to enjoyed, and that's all. Whatever floats someone's boat. No harm, no foul. Solitaire also contains no eula or Tos to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghistwelve Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) ...So far, no one can explain why using the exploit was wrong, other than some vague hypothetical "harm" resulting from some raid leader somewhere making a gear-based choice, that many other raiders have blown off as silly... Max, I think you're being a bit too unfair. Most are attempting to come at this game from the perspective of gamesmanship, because well it is a game and gamesmanship is the very definition of in-game conduct. In it's purest form, gamesmanship _IS_ the practice of winning a game or contest by doing things that seem unfair but that are not actually against the rules. The key thing is this game does have rules and exploiting is against them. So, on it's face exploiting is against the rules and therefore out of bounds as a method for trying to win while playing it. I think that's where nearly everyone you describe in your circular reasoning example is coming from. I will take a slightly different attempt; I could give a crap about the morality that may be involved. But then, I acknowledge that containment through secrecy is one of the most powerful defenses a game developer may have in fighting exploits so I think one of the absolute worst classes of people are the ones that communicated the exploit. Call it the "snitches get stiches" position. Exploits are bad for us all, because it circumvents the game's designed, planned, executed, and intended life cycle. MMORPG's are a highly competitive market, and SWTOR, to tremendous media coverage is in that competition. MMORPG's stem from a long history of digital RPG gaming; in fact this very game has been marketed as the thematic, if not direct 3rd through 10th sequels to a single-player RPG KotoR. There are several things that differentiate mmorpgs from single-player rpgs; it's all there in the letters. This game is online. There is an ongoing need to pay the bills. This game doesn't involve a single-purchase and install. It requires a tremendous infrastructure to support. That's where we get to the lynchpin of mmorpgs: the content cycle. Like it or not, what drives success in mmorpgs is a steady stream of content; this is the tradeoff. People pay to support the game -- beyond a single boxed purchase. And so, people expect a continued return. Broken content cycles fail games. What an exploit of this nature does is artificially expedite that content cycle. The outlier is the coordinated hardcore raider. They are progressing in content most nights, and then as they clear and formulate strategies, repeat with their Alts. They drive the end-game, and "beat" it quicker than most. They gear out main toons in completing and quickly gear out alts because they've mastered the strats and all are coordinated. In the case of the beginning of this exploit, there was only one team -- one team in game that had the achievement. Not everyone was at that point, and so all raiding teams were striving to get to that point and earn the rewards. That takes work. It's fun, it's exciting to clear progression. It is one of the major play styles that this game caters to, like it or not. Not every team is so coordinated to clear lockouts for the whole group on 2 or 3 or 4 alts a week. So, the natural cycle to even progress, and clear bosses, and then gear up an entire team is a natural duration. Then comes the gearing up of alts that extends this natural cycle further. What the devs do then is target the content cycle for when most of the regular -- not the top raiders in the world -- teams complete the content. What the exploit does is shorten that cycle. Then once people have won, and won on all the toons they feel they want to. They will leave the game until the next content -- IF a new bright, shiny object hasn't taken their attention first. This game has experienced that cycle, and to all our detriment. Why does this matter to anyone? Because there's another important letter: the "m" for multiplayer. If everyone leaves -- or as people have said, if everyone is banned for breaking the rules -- then there won't be any game to play at all; or rather the play experience for likely everyone would be impacted. Take another approach: end-game raiders share a greater than average percentage of subs, which is one the most desirable revenue stream EA wants for its recurring predictability. If 10%-15% of the player base up and leaves from boredom or rules enforcement actions, YOU and I are likely also be impacted by that result. Edited January 17, 2015 by Genghistwelve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Solitaire also contains no eula or Tos to use. then the people complaining about "morality" are completely off base. this has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with bw deciding you had broken their rule. the sad thing is this has left bw looking more inept as the days go by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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