Ravagers Exploit Action Update

[Andryah]

The TOS is not law, it is an agreement that has been drafted by attorneys to protect EA from claims, and minimize any potential damages, but it is not infallible.

 

Correct, it is not law. It is also not meaningless paper either. It binds two parties in a legal terms and conditions agreement. Players need not agree to it but if they don't, or they violate it, they don't get access to the game either.

 

It is a civil contract, which the player agrees to in order to access the game. Either party can breech a contract and the other party may, or may not, have a claim of standing. Even if there is a claim, it may be trivial and therefore not something a court would agree to accept. "Small fish" contract breeches are frowned upon by courts when parties want to litigate them in court.

 

I agree with you that nobody here can predict exact outcomes of any given contention between parties. Please explain that to the person I responded to. k thanx.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Andryah

[ivanhedgehog]

Many if not most of the people who exploited are subscribers, many have subscribed for 2-3 years. They are people who play all parts of the game, augment their gear, and min/max. Remove them and you are left with mostly casuals in unaugmented comm gear who have never read a strategy guide in their life and get carried through all content. Removing them from the game, makes the game worse.

 

Then there's manpower it would take to punish every player. BioWare can't do something as simple as drawing up a few new icons for Mission Discoveries, but they have time for this? They're going to remove crafting materials that people already sold or used to craft? They're going to remove gear that already had it's mods stripped and placed into Cartel or Legacy armor? They're going to remove schematics they learned if they learned it from RE an exploited item, but they can't take away the credit charged to other players to craft the items. They aren't going to remove any crafting crit bonus items that were created and sold from materials gained from exploits. And who is making the decisions? Some clown who makes $9 an hour? Some person who doesn't even play the game? Let's be honest. BioWare has a bare bones stafff. This past expansion is proof of that.

 

now its time to hold BW to a higher standard. they have the manpower to do this, then they can take care of a lot of the bugs that have slid by for 3 years. no more messages from CS telling us they cant track what loot was supposed to drop. no more excuses.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

If you get banned then you can file a dispute with your credit card company for items you have purchased (CM) and BioWare would have the burden of proving you knew you were breaking the ToS to justify you not having access to your purchased goods. Since BioWare didn't speak up until the damage was done I feel that they are in a tough position to ban anyone without receiving several credit card disputes. If you took advantage of the exploit after BioWare's announcement then you're SOL IMO.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

And yet you object to the terms "witch-hunter" and "fanatic" being used to describe a subset of the people calling for punishments.

 

Listen to yourself -- accusing anyone pushes back against the cries of "DOOM" and "GAME RUINING!" and the demands for all who used the exploit to be found and harshly "dealt with", of being one of the cheaters.

 

Salem called, they want their witch trials back.

 

Not at all, some people probably are deserving of the title but you sir fail to really put anyone individually into it and choose to just try lump everyone who are more or less "anti cheaters" into it on the assumed basis of trying to justify your actions in the game or defend the stand point that you aren't quite such a cheat after all.

 

You first tried to justify it as being the people who were calling perm bans etc. I clarified this point on my own behalf as not being my standing yet you still persist with this rather dull concept of belittlement.

 

If you want to think of me as a witch hunter for wanting to see punishment dealt to cheaters in the means I feel they deserve I won't lose any sleep of it. In fact I welcome criticism from the likes of people like you who happily exploit a game, try turn it around on the innocent players and still feel they've done nothing wrong and can't just take their punishment in a respectable manner. If it means I'm not like you then more the power to me.

[Agurk]

I hope that this will befall those who are the original culprits who normally find these exploits and use then but don't let it known. Because this has been like a brushfire in the game and to prevent brushfires in the future you need to hit the people who start it in the first place not just the people who jump on board, but as you stated previously you normally keep it quit and fix it so it doesn't spread which gives the impression that its ok to use them as long as you don't let to many people know.

[Andryah]

If you get banned then you can file a dispute with your credit card company for items you have purchased (CM) and BioWare would have the burden of proving you knew you were breaking the ToS to justify you not having access to your purchased goods. Since BioWare didn't speak up until the damage was done I feel that they are in a tough position to ban anyone without receiving several credit card disputes. If you took advantage of the exploit after BioWare's announcement then you're SOL IMO.

 

They do not have to prove the player knowingly broke the ToS. They only have to stipulate, with reasonable grounds/proof, that the player broke the ToS (stipulating exactly the same statements to the CC company that they provide to the player when they are notified). Any harm to the player comes from the player in this context. I'm sure a company the size of EA has established process with credit card companies as to how to go about handling these things. They don't just have to roll over for the consumer.

 

Tens of millions of players play MMOs and other games using their credit cards. Stop pretending that credit card companies are not fully aware of the issues that arise between players and game companies, and know how to deal with them on the credit card side of things.

 

Warranty claims... which some have tried to press here as well.. separate discussion, and even less ground for the player to stand on.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Andryah

[Kunovega]

Because it is/was just that easy right? HM anyway, you make it sounds like a cakewalk yet had it not been exploited over 99% of those running in 198 gear wouldn't be.

 

and this effects you how? its not even going to be top end gear for long. nightmare is coming.

 

Whilst unlimited is an exaggeration of sorts perhaps they meant unlimited in the sense the only limit was the amount of level 60 characters you had. That means you undergeared crappy alt toons that are no good for ops can get the gear they would have otherwise never had a chance to get and then share that back to the main or whatever else you want to do with it ( RE etc. ).

 

and ? you can also just take all your mains gear and legacy it to anyone else. i have 16 characters, they share 6 sets of legacy gear. they all wear the best, no crappy undergeared alts

 

it still doesnt effect you or anyone else, so why do you care?

 

Based on your vitriol in your post we'll put you in the "cheater and angry got caught doing it" category then?

 

 

hey genius, let me tell you how i was introduced to it:

 

"hey come get this lockout"

 

"ok, ill come help end of raid"

 

"hey, theres just a chest here?"

 

"yea loot it, we killed the boss already"

 

"oh, dont we normally share lockouts than kill the boss?"

 

"this time you dont have to"

 

....

 

How many people got invites from friends/guild without knowing they were doing anything other than sharing a lockout like all the other times a lockout was shared?

 

I've been asked to come in the end of a raid or to come in and do a last boss lockout for guild wide conquest points almost weekly

 

Sharing lockouts is a pretty routine thing; I know a lot of people who got given this without even knowing what they were being given until they were inside

 

I did it on one more character just to see if it was passable as easily as it appeared. After that? I didn't need to, I realized we werent getting the set bonus pieces from the other bosses and would rather just do the op the normal way

 

That boss? Is not hard. He was only hard for the first week when he was freaking broken. Now he's downed in hard mode within hours of reset every week

 

You seem to fail to see the point where the mechanic of actually beating the boss was removed entirely. Not that I bother exploiting the lockout work around either but as I understand it you would have to complete the content with say 15 players with the 16th able to hold open the lockout to bring in another 15 players to TRY beat the boss.

 

See, thats the ineffecient way.

 

No, you want to share a lockout: you take 16 people to the final boss, than you break up the ops group. Now each one of those 16 people invites 15 other people to come in and kill the final boss

 

Thats 16 people who do most of the op and 16x16 who end up completing it. This is how guilds hand out conquest points for ops to players who dont normally do ops but are willing to do 1 boss fight.

 

So yea, 1 ops completion can be given to 256 people for conquest points and loot. And thats the normal lockout sharing that happens every week in this game and has been going on for months

 

This version quite litterally only changes 1 aspect: you save the few minutes killing the last boss would take

 

Stop pretending he was hard, he isnt

 

Now are you going to tell me normal lockout sharing is an exploit? because its still going on with no end in sight

 

How many people should be punished for being invited to the so called "exploit" version when they didnt even know what they were being invited to?

 

In terms of HM I think you would be hard pressed to have found 16 people to begin with let alone bringing in another 15 and basically every single toon everyone who chooses to cheat has at level 60.

 

You clearly are not in an end game conquest/raiding guild. We have nearly 1000 members spread between 2 guild tags (because the cap is 500 per guild). Every member has at least 2 level 60's, many of us have 16 or more characters (all of my close friends have 16 to 20 level 60s)

 

We don't lose at conquest, we've beat every op in the game and continue to do so every week.

 

Keep pretending that level 60s are rare and that no ones doing hardmodes, you are clueless

 

But by all means down play it and act like the ones thinking you cheaters are in the wrong are the idiots if it helps you sleep at night.

 

I'm not saying it shouldn't have been fixed. Of course it should be fixed.

 

But it wasnt the end of the world, the economy wasn't trashed by it. No one character could do this 1000 times.

 

You want to know whats really pathetic? Bioware was made aware of this problem during the revan expansion beta and never fixed it. They pushed it live and left it open for weeks. Now they want to talk about punishing people? Some of whom didnt even know what they were invited into doing?

 

Get bent. Im tired of the threats and the macho BS posturing. If they were going to punish people they should have punished the people who were spreading it the most and charging money for it and they should have done it weeks ago.

 

This is biowares mistake and now they are going to try and take away a subscription and in game items that we've paid real money for? Not gonna happen without a fight.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Tens of millions of players play MMOs and other games using their credit cards. Stop pretending that credit card companies are not fully aware of the issues that arise between players and game companies, and know how to deal with them on the credit card side of things.

 

Yes one would think it better for the credit card company to annoy a few cheating players by not honoring a refund or charge back than it would be to go against an entire development house by trying to charge back funds that were arguably never deserved to be charged back to the buyer.

[LordArtemis]

I just wanted to remind everyone that the forum community members are not the ones deciding what punishments, if any, will be doled out for this "exploit". Bioware will be making that decision.

 

It seems that some folks are unaware of this absolute fact.

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program "The SWTOR community has collectively lost their minds", now in progress.

Edited January 15, 2015 by LordArtemis

[ZETA_SCORPII]

They do not have to prove the player knowingly broke the ToS. They only have to stipulate, with reasonable grounds, that the player broke the ToS (stipulating exactly the same statements to the CC company that they provide to the player when they are notified). Any harm to the player comes from the player in this context.

 

Tens of millions of players play MMOs and other games using their credit cards. Stop pretending that credit card companies are not fully aware of the issues that arise between players and game companies, and know how to deal with them on the credit card side of things.

 

How would BioWare prove that the consumer knew they were taking advantage of an exploit prior to the announcement? BioWare willfully released a broken product so the paying customer's have grounds to dispute actions taken towards their accounts.

[Andryah]

I just wanted to remind everyone that the forum community members are not the ones deciding what punishments, if any, will be doled out for this "exploit". Bioware will be making that decision.

 

it seems that some folks are unaware of this absolute fact.

 

Indeed.

 

But the discussion continues to evolve.. we now have alleged exploiters roll playing alleged legal beagles proclaiming Bioware/EA cannot do anything to players and that they will sue if they do.. yada yada yada.

 

It just keeps getting funnier and funnier.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Indeed.

 

But the discussion continues to evolve.. we now have alleged exploiters roll playing alleged legal beagles proclaiming Bioware/EA cannot do anything to players and that they will sue if they do.. yada yada yada.

 

It just keeps getting funnier and funnier.

 

The only funny thing here is that you presume to know everything.

[LordArtemis]

Indeed.

 

But the discussion continues to evolve.. we now have alleged exploiters roll playing alleged legal beagles proclaiming Bioware/EA cannot do anything to players and that they will sue if they do.. yada yada yada.

 

It just keeps getting funnier and funnier.

 

I have to say it is one of the most mind boggling, yet very entertaining forum meltdowns I have seen in quite some time.

 

Reminds me of the whole "Wizard" incident.

[Kunovega]

They do not have to prove the player knowingly broke the ToS. They only have to stipulate, with reasonable grounds/proof, that the player broke the ToS (stipulating exactly the same statements to the CC company that they provide to the player when they are notified). Any harm to the player comes from the player in this context. I'm sure a company the size of EA has established process with credit card companies as to how to go about handling these things. They don't just have to roll over for the consumer.

 

Tens of millions of players play MMOs and other games using their credit cards. Stop pretending that credit card companies are not fully aware of the issues that arise between players and game companies, and know how to deal with them on the credit card side of things.

 

Warranty claims... which some have tried to press here as well.. separate discussion, and even less ground for the player to stand on.

 

Try proving this was even an exploit.

 

This was using a game mechanic: sharing lockouts; that has been present in the game for years

 

It allowed you to reach the end point of an operation (as you always could) and complete it: 1 time per week before being locked yourself

 

You could not repeat it, you could not duplicate items. From a purely game mechanics viewpoint: you could do everything you normally would

 

The only difference was where the lockout point was placed: after the boss fight instead of before it. How is this the players fault?

 

Now lets dig deeper: Bioware had been told about this during Revan beta testing. This was known for months, it went live and stayed live for weeks

 

They knowingly released this content and allowed it to continue being used

 

Then retroactively decided to start threatening people who used it?

 

No hacks were used to cause this, no alteration of game code was used to cause this, no real glitch was even used

 

Quite literally an in game mechanic that was always present was used; it was just aimed at a timing point they decided to change; after the fact.

 

One could argue from a legal standpoint this was bad design, not an exploit. They designed an operation with a lockout point after the boss instead of before the boss. No player made this, bioware did. No hacks or cheats were used to cause this. An in game mechanic was used, one thats been around for years.

 

Players should not be punished for bad design; nor should they be punished for biowares decision to launch the expansion with this design present or their decision to leave it knowingly in the game for weeks

 

They want to punish players because they designed something wrong?

 

When do we get to punish them for the bugs we have to cope with. Broken content, broken recipes, the horrible server performance and a million other things.

 

Hey bioware: Stop trying to punish players for your mistakes and fix your dam game, its still broken.

[Andryah]

How would BioWare prove that the consumer knew they were taking advantage of an exploit prior to the announcement? BioWare willfully released a broken product so the paying customer's have grounds to dispute actions taken towards their accounts.

 

You are not listening. They don't have to. They only have to substantiate that the player did so. Ignorance has no standing in a civil contract except in very special circumstances. There is a reason the ToS/EULA documents are written the way they are.... they permit action for violations... and the consumer can do nothing about it if they in fact did violate (knowingly or unknowlingly). And I'm not suggesting that companies deliberately target unknowing players who only did something one time for action.. just that under the terms they can if they choose to.

 

But let's be practical for a moment.. OK? The people getting severe ban-sticking will be those that log data clearly shows did it over and over and over again. Most people probably will simply get items and credits clawed back and short term suspensions.

 

I find it very entertaining though that offenders are trying to bargain away the ToS as unenforceable.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Andryah

[LordArtemis]

The only funny thing here is that you presume to know everything.

 

ipsa scientia potestas est, perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim

Edited January 15, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Andryah]

The only funny thing here is that you presume to know everything.

 

Ah yes.. time for some ad hominem I see.

 

I only comment on things I DO know about. Things I do not know anything about I pass on the conversations.

[LordArtemis]

I find it very entertaining though that offenders are trying to bargain away the ToS as unenforceable.

 

The Kubler-Ross model indeed.

 

I wonder what depression will look like?

[ZETA_SCORPII]

You are not listening. They don't have to. They only have to substantiate that the player did so. Ignorance has no standing in a civil contract except in very special circumstances. There is a reason the ToS/EULA documents are written the way they are.... they permit action for violations... and the consumer can do nothing about it if they in fact did violate (knowingly or unknowlingly). And I'm not suggesting that companies deliberately target unknowing players who only did something one time for action.. just that under the terms they can if they choose to.

 

But let's be practical for a moment.. OK? The people getting severe ban-sticking will be those that log data clearly shows did it over and over and over again. Most people probably will simply get items and credits clawed back and short term suspensions.

 

I find it very entertaining though that offenders are trying to bargain away the ToS as unenforceable.

 

So if someone shares a lockout with me at the weekly boss and I accept their invite, I am exploiting, right?

[ivanhedgehog]

I would like to see everyone who didn't exploit get a legacy title to show that they didn't exploit.

 

Then we can see how many people didn't exploit.

 

as long as they has purchased sor prior to the patch and were subscribers

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Ah yes.. time for some ad hominem I see.

 

I only comment on things I DO know about. Things I do not know anything about I pass on the conversations.

 

So you know the ins and outs of credit card disputes?

[Andryah]

So if someone shares a lockout with me at the weekly boss and I accept their invite, I am exploiting, right?

 

If the company in their review determines that A) you exploited, and B) it was severe enough to warrant action... then guess what... you get an action.

 

You don't have to like it.. but they are within their rights under the terms YOU agreed to in order to play THEIR game.

[Kunovega]

Agreed, the expressions on the peoples faces in that courtroom would be priceless...

 

"Well you see your honor, it all started when i got caught cheating in a video game..."

 

That's just it. You can't even prove this was cheating.

 

This was actually by design. Someone created the operation and set the point of lockout after the final boss.

 

Players used an existing game mechanic: sharing lockouts to enter that point of the operation.

 

This is a mechanic that has been present and usable in the game for years.

 

Players have no control over the lockout locations, bioware does.

 

No hacking was done, no special exploits were used, no cheating of any kind was actually done.

 

Players used an in game mechanic to reach a lockout point where it was designed to be.

 

Mind you: bioware had been told about this issue during revan beta testing. They not only allowed it to go to the live servers, they left it up for a month.

 

Later they decided to change the location of the lockout point in the operation timing.

 

Retroactively they are now threatening players who used their original design.

 

Legally, what was the cheat? We used the product we were given that contained tools that were present within the game for years.

[Frybert]

Thanks for that information. How though would they though deem the contract to be illegal per se? Like which part of it? If there is a clause stating any use of exploit will result in a ban thus paid time being revoked how is that exactly illegal?

I imagine it's ideally stating that you are provided a product "as is" and this product is to be used in X manner and you need to agree to this if you wish to continue to use this product as it remains the intellectual property of BW/EA thus by exploiting something within their game do you not breach the contract to begin with also?

 

It would be an interesting one to see in court. I would absolutely laugh my *** off if someone punished over this took it to court and we got to read about it. It will never happen of course because people are generally full of hot air when it comes to actually taking action.

 

The simplest way to put it is this: If the law says they have to reimburse, but the ToS says they don't, the law is going to win and they are going to be required to reimburse.

 

You can't just put whatever you want into a contract and still expect it to be legally enforceable. If there is a law that precludes part of a contract, then that part of the contract is void. If California law does indeed state that BW can not charge for a service it did not rendered, then it doesn't matter if the ToS says it can. Then if someone in California paid for six months, they either get six months, or their money back for the remainder of the time they didn't get.

 

As far as it being funny if it went to court: People go to court (and are taken very seriously) for the silliest of things every day. That being said, BW would not let it go that far. Not for the $80 it would take them (at most) to give the refund.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

If the company in their review determines that A) you exploited, and B) it was severe enough to warrant action... then guess what... you get an action.

 

You don't have to like it.. but they are within their rights under the terms YOU agreed to in order to play THEIR game.

 

First off, don't assume that I partook in the exploit. 2nd, there is a grey area here because BioWare allows you to skip bosses and go directly to the weekly boss or any boss for that matter via lockouts. The fact that they KNEW about this all along only tells me that no action will be taken. The damage is done though, several people I know have un-subbed due to BioWare's absolute ignorance in handling this issue in a timely manner.