Ravagers Exploit Action Update

[ZETA_SCORPII]

I am opining.. along with every other person tossing opinions into the discussion. As are you. Why do you want to run a double standard here?

 

Don't like it.. too bad. Put me on /ignore then.

 

I'm only asking because in a lot of your responses you appear to gain great satisfaction by belittling others. No worries though, I'm just as guilty.

[Andryah]

Sorry, wrong.

 

So you are a lawyer... and giving advice to strangers in a gaming forum? I see. Ethics?

 

Well.. I make no claims to be a lawyer.. because I am not. I do have opinions, inside an opinion thread in an opinion forum.

 

I have worked extensively with lawyers during my career, so I am not absent of understanding of consumer protection laws and how companies comply with them.

[BuriDogshin]

Wow, from working for Intel coding to being a lawyer also ( if that was the implication ). Impressive and somewhat diverse resume ( not being sarcastic either ).

Thanks. I've had a long and interesting life, with much more to come, fate willing.

[LordArtemis]

It can happen. I took my legal advice from an episode of Boston Legal once, it didn't end well.

 

[Andryah]

I'm only asking because in a lot of your responses you appear to gain great satisfaction by belittling others. No worries though, I'm just as guilty.

 

Disagreeing with someones opinions, explaining why, and discussing those disagreements is in no way wrong or improper.

 

If you feel I am in violation of forum rules.. by all means report me.

 

I don't tell you what and where to post... so please return the favor in kind.

 

Can we stop making the topic about me now?

Edited January 15, 2015 by Andryah

[Andryah]

No -- if someone sinks real money into a bad case, they can lose both that money and suffer losses under the final judgement.

 

Absolutely agree.

 

I'm not the one encouraging people to sue over this. The opposite in fact, because I really do not see grounds to sue anyone here... not even players who exploited (which some folks have claimed has ruined their game).

Edited January 15, 2015 by Andryah

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Disagreeing with someone opinions, explaining why, and discussing those disagreements is in no way wrong or improper.

 

If you feel I am in violation of forum rules.. by all means report me.

 

I don't tell you what and where to post... so please return the favor in kind.

 

Can we stop making the topic about me now?

 

Did I ever say you were violating the forum rules? No. I was simply making an observation that you seem to thrive off being some sort of forum vigilante. Given your vast knowledge and expertise, don't you have better things to do?

[Andryah]

Did I ever say you were violating the forum rules? No. I was simply making an observation that you seem to thrive off being some sort of forum vigilante. Given your vast knowledge and expertise, don't you have better things to do?

 

I am not a forum vigilante. You have me confused with the pitch-fork and hand grenade crowd here.

 

I also do not enter every discussion. When I do, I do so sincerely and I do not do so lightly. That is my style. Anything worth discussing is worth discussing well, even though doing so puts me at odds with some peoples views and opinions. I make no apology for that.

 

back to the topic....

Edited January 15, 2015 by Andryah

[MeNaCe-NZ]

So you are a lawyer... and giving advice to strangers in a gaming forum? I see. Ethics?

 

Fairly sure he was the one dissuading anyone over trusting anything in any thread on this topic ( or entire forum ) as being sound or even reasonable legal advice. I've seen a fair bit of opinion, something you have gone on about for a few posts now though ... nothing that would constitute advice per se.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

I am not a forum vigilante. You have me confused with the pitch-fork and hand grenade crowd here.

 

I also do not enter every discussion. When I do, I do so sincerely and I do not do so lightly. That is my style. Anything worth discussing is worth discussing well, even though doing so puts me at odds with some peoples views and opinions. I make no apology for that.

 

back to the topic....

 

Is using the guild ship transport function to bring others to a datacron an exploit? I'm curious as to what your opinion is on this.

[DrewFromPhilly]

they released a crap expansion that players are still seeing repercussions from in terms of lag and ability delay, and a bug in this op was apparently one more thing they made a mistake with. One more thing in their long, sad history of incompetence that goes all the way back to the game's development.

 

The correct course of action, would have been to realize this and quietly prevent the exploit from happening in the future and doing absolutely nothing to those who used it.

 

any moral high ground or professionalism they had went out the window a long, long time ago. What little is left is diminished every time they break something else, or miss an earlier statement promising content, or go another inexcusably long period with no updates at all. BioWare's handling of SWTOR has been pathetic. If they choose to actually target and punish the continually diminishing player base for finding a mistake they themselves should have caught that would be the final straw for me and I imagine a substantial number of other players as well.

 

No, i never used this exploit. But I have absolutely nothing against those who did, and to be honest I would even commend them for doing so.

 

instead of seeing this as something abhorrent that needs to be punished and dealt with, they should see it as a signal that they need to do a better job. A better job with the content they do release, a better job testing to make sure exploits (but far more importantly, bugs) do not exist, and of course a better job communicating with the player base. Threatening the players keeping this game alive despite the lack of content is a terribly stupid and unprofessional idea

Edited January 15, 2015 by DrewFromPhilly

[ron_harmeling]

As I see it is no different to products that say "don't tamper with this or you will void your warranty" and you tamper with and then try and get refund/repair under warranty. It happens with gaming consoles that people alter, rooting of cellphones etc. etc. So as I see it by exploiting the game you've breached the ToS in the same manner and given up any legal right you had to a refund etc.

 

Not quite. The word here that bothers me is "tampering".

No one tampered with any part of the game.

Worse, I would see it more like a car builder constructing a faulty car, shutting their mouths about the defaults, and fixing the issue after it goes public.

It makes them liable for what happened / happens in the future.

 

Or see it like this. I give you the keys to my house and the code for my vault. I tell you how you can open it.

You do so, I go call the cops and have you punished for burglary. I called the cops after I locked the room and reprogrammed my safe codes of course.

BioWare published that there was an exploit on Ravagers last boss, but fixed it only a week later. All while announcing people that used it would get punished.

Unfair in a way ....

 

Given it is an error of design, and THEY HAD KNOWLEDGE about it (if not since the beta, it was reported by several people before Christmas and ignored), you would be entitled to a refund.

 

On top, if they have the data about who did what and gained this and that, they should have acted before.

 

And....Who got 37 barrels / hilts / enhancements / mods for his toons from GTN lately ? Or bought some Transmatter Substantiators / Exonium for crafting ?

Will those items be revoked if they came from a schem gained through an exploited item ? Cause, a buyer that knows OR COULD HAVE KNOWN an item comes from an illegal action is an accessory to the crime and should be punished as well.

 

If they go through with punishments, they should punish all. Or they should punish no one that hasn't been spreading / selling the "exploit".

 

And like people said, lockout sharing is a reality, and it is was happened right here.

Except the boss was already dead -> lockout checkpoint set after the boss instead of before.

So....Lockout sharing is not an exploit, unless the boss is dead ??? Oddest thing ....

 

For those who talk about legal action : I can prove in several ways that this product is NOT answering to going market standards atm. Under European law I can ask for a full refund of ALL money invested in the product over the last 12 months.

Not answering to market standard : The lag, FPS unacceptably low, and a certain number of bugs reported to BW and unsolved after 5 weeks.....Apart from this bugs in-game for 3 YEARS that have been reported and never solved.

 

ToS is nice for them, as the company that writes it NEVER will violate it. Since it is a one-sided dictation on what the user has to do. It does NEVER EVER describe the obligations of the author. NEVER.

Hence consumer law and consumer protection will come into play (at least in EU / UK).

Edited January 15, 2015 by ron_harmeling

[ZETA_SCORPII]

And like people said, lockout sharing is a reality, and it is was happened right here.

Except the boss was already dead -> lockout checkpoint set after the boss instead of before.

So....Lockout sharing is not an exploit, unless the boss is dead ??? Oddest thing ....

 

Unless lockout sharing is classified as an exploit, no one has actually exploited anything IMO.

[ron_harmeling]

Unless lockout sharing is classified as an exploit, no one has actually exploited anything IMO.

 

Exactly my point being. And since I don't know a single player in game that hasn't profited from a lockout in flashpoints or operation, servers are gonna be very quiet in the near future.

Actually, they can close them, as all deserve permabans (this is some of the carebear's opinion here).

Edited January 15, 2015 by ron_harmeling

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Not quite. The word here that bothers me is "tampering".

No one tampered with any part of the game. Worse, I would see it more like a car builder constructing a faulty car, shutting their mouths about the defaults, and fixing the issue after it goes public.

 

But that's the word used in my example of warranty ( again only stating my point of view here, nothing factual ) where as in this games ToS it states not to basically exploit any bug or content you find. I believe it encourages people to report the bugs etc. not continuously sit there gaining gear over and over and over.

 

you would be entitled to a refund.

 

For SoR? Good luck with that if you had completed the content to get to 60 in the first place. One would argue you got what you paid for and this was a bug as part of that whole "as is" statement as per the ToS.

 

You can try the refund angle though if that's your intention, be interested to know what response, if any, is given.

 

On top, if they have the data about who did what and gained this and that, they should have acted before.

 

I agree with that completely. Still no justification for continuing to exploit a bug though.

 

And....Who got 37 barrels / hilts / enhancements / mods for his toons from GTN lately ? Or bought some Transmatter Substantiators / Exonium for crafting ?

Will those items be revoked if they came from a schem gained through an exploited item ? Cause, a buyer that knows OR COULD HAVE KNOWN an item comes from an illegal action is an accessory to the crime and should be punished as well.

 

Again you are quite right and all that gear by rights could be removed also though proving anyone knew something was gained illegally when you bought it from the GTN ( using the game strictly as BW intended in that case ) would be tough for them to prove and that really would get the ire of the community up. It's more about punishing/correcting those that knowingly exploited a bug and anyone repeatedly doing it in their logging/db can be assumed to be exactly that.

 

I would assume then that anything that was sold etc. will be let slide. Whether or not credits made by the seller are revoked is another story I guess.

 

If they go through with punishments, they should punish all. Or they should punish no one that hasn't been spreading / selling the "exploit".

 

I think if it's someone who ran it once or twice then beyond removing their gear they gained there hsould be no further punishment. Anyone beyond that can probably be lumped into the spreading the exploit function.

 

Watching it spread through my guild you could argue all were guilty of spreading it because everyone was encouraging everyone else to do it.

 

And like people said, lockout sharing is a reality, and it is was happened right here.

Except the boss was already dead -> lockout checkpoint set after the boss instead of before.

So....Lockout sharing is not an exploit, unless the boss is dead ??? Oddest thing ....

 

apparently it's not though personally I would love to see them close that loophole and should have done so when people got up in arms about it during the early conquest stages. Maybe this will prompt them to do so.

 

Still getting loot from a boss you never killed is kind of obvious. More so when an achievement pops up saying you killed a boss you never killed.

 

For those who talk about legal action : I can prove in several ways that this product is NOT answering to going market standards atm. Under European law I can ask for a full refund of ALL money invested in the product over the last 12 months.

Not answering to market standard : The lag, FPS unacceptably low, and a certain number of bugs reported to BW and unsolved after 5 weeks.....Apart from this bugs in-game for 3 YEARS that have been reported and never solved.

 

ToS is nice for them, as the company that writes it NEVER will violate it. Since it is a one-sided dictation on what the user has to do. It does NEVER EVER describe the obligations of the author. NEVER.

Hence consumer law and consumer protection will come into play (at least in EU / UK).

 

As with all debate on this it's all speculation. Until at least someone actually tries to do this and succeeds or fails and can report so.

[BrianDavion]

they released a crap expansion that players are still seeing repercussions from in terms of lag and ability delay, and a bug in this op was apparently one more thing they made a mistake with. One more thing in their long, sad history of incompetence that goes all the way back to the game's development.

 

The correct course of action, would have been to realize this and quietly prevent the exploit from happening in the future and doing absolutely nothing to those who used it.

 

any moral high ground or professionalism they had went out the window a long, long time ago. What little is left is diminished every time they break something else, or miss an earlier statement promising content, or go another inexcusably long period with no updates at all. BioWare's handling of SWTOR has been pathetic. If they choose to actually target and punish the continually diminishing player base for finding a mistake they themselves should have caught that would be the final straw for me and I imagine a substantial number of other players as well.

 

No, i never used this exploit. But I have absolutely nothing against those who did, and to be honest I would even commend them for doing so.

 

instead of seeing this as something abhorrent that needs to be punished and dealt with, they should see it as a signal that they need to do a better job. A better job with the content they do release, a better job testing to make sure exploits (but far more importantly, bugs) do not exist, and of course a better job communicating with the player base. Threatening the players keeping this game alive despite the lack of content is a terribly stupid and unprofessional idea

 

Don't let the door hit you on your way out

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Exactly my point being. And since I don't know a single player in game that hasn't profited from a lockout in flashpoints or operation, servers are gonna be very quiet in the near future.

Actually, they can close them, as all deserve permabans (this is some of the carebear's opinion here).

 

If they allow lockouts in their game then they can't punish anyone. They should just let it go, improve their QA department, and let this whole thing blow over because 198 gear will become obsolete in the future.

[AdeiphoVH]

How would BioWare prove that the consumer knew they were taking advantage of an exploit prior to the announcement? BioWare willfully released a broken product so the paying customer's have grounds to dispute actions taken towards their accounts.

 

How did Bioware not completely shut down the instance, even after they made their post, if it was such a big deal and if people are going to be banned over this, why is there no accountability on there part for not doing there due diligence?

[Spamfritter]

It's funny watching people sweat in game now.

 

People who used the exploit had no reason to believe they would be punished for using an exploit. BioWare has allowed NiM EC, Dashroode, Bestia, and Nefra exploits (just to name a few) to go on for weeks and even months and never once talked about "taking action" against anyone so publicly. ToS be damned BioWare has set the precedent that they won't punish anyone for using these exploits and that they are either too lazy or incapable of fixing serious errors in their own game code.

 

People who never used any of the above exploits used the Ravager exploit because they've seen people go unpunished for YEARS. And BioWare wants to come down on people all of the sudden? Why do you suppose that is? Probably because they look like a bunch of idiots for not taking action sooner.

 

As I have said before, the launch of SoR (3.0) has been the worst update since TFB was introduced and BioWare would rather punish people now to save a little face than fix the game's actual problems. BioWare probably counted on people's honestly to keep the exploitation they knew about from the PTS to a minimum. Here is a shocker, people are opportunistic. You give them a way to get something for free, without paying for it, working for it or without perceived consequences and they will take what they can get nearly every time. (Especially when there isn't prison time attached to the act.) It's a game and people don't always associate the same morality that governs them in real life to a VIDEO GAME. After all you can execute NPCs with impunity in SWTOR but you wouldn't do it in real life.

 

BioWare is lying when they say that this wasn't widespread, they are probably lying about the depth of the data they've collected and are probably developing ways to gather such data now as a reactionary measure. Trust me they weren't proactive enough to develop the level of oversight they claim to have now in the past.

 

BioWare is like everyone in America these days. They won't accept personal responsibility for their mistakes and instead BioWare want to pass blame onto the players even though they set the expectation that there would be zero consequences for this type of behavior. BioWare is damned if they do and damned if they don't. They can attempt to punish exploiters but most of them were subscribers. Those are the people paying SWTOR staff's salaries and bills right now. Alienate them with too harsh a punishment and they lose subscribers and money. If they don't do anything, or aren't harsh enough the pitchfork crowd may have people who will unsubscribe. (Though I suspect the pitchfork crowd is smaller than the crowd who did the exploit if Harbinger is any indication.)

 

You have bosses that reset when they are about to die.

You have bosses that you can't loot when you kill them.

You have people who exploit bolster bugs in PvP routinely.

You have content that can't be cleared because you tuned it wrong. (NiM mechanics in SM Calphayus anyone?)

You have rampant annoying ability lag and server latency.

You nickel and dime people to death with the Cartel Market. The best armor, weapons and game features are literally Cartel Market exclusives every time. This to some degree lessens the enjoyment people with less disposable income can potentially get out of the game. (Sure they can craft a bunch of **** or do dailies until their eyes bleed to earn credits of course, but players with real life money don't have to.)

You have poorly optimized gear you have to win several times just to optimize your gear. You shove stats down our throat we don't want and have proven are worthless.

You constantly balance classes out of viability and over power others to keep people switching character classes just to remain competitive.

Current commendations gear is virtually useless further increasing the gap between hardcore raiders and casuals.

 

There is also some irony to this whole situation which seems lost on many people here. Finally there is a bug that actually BENEFITS the players and you want to punish them for using it?

 

On a more serious note BioWare has never punished exploiters before and wants to punish them now? BioWare wants to punish people for doing something their code allowed? It wasn't as if the Ravagers exploit required external software or software modification to make it work. It isn't the same as a speed hack or something like that in PvP.

 

Exploiters knew that there was some possibility of action being taken against them, but deemed the possibility remote as BioWare has a lengthy track record of apathy in this area. BioWare needs to take some responsibility for that. Most exploiters I know will take a week ban or some sort of consequence that lets them come back and continue playing the game as they have before without any complaints because they know what they did was technically wrong.

 

The Pitchfork crowd better get ready for some disappointment because BioWare knows that harsh corrective action against subscribers is not a solid financial move. This is the company that sells you the most basic features of a game in micro transactions and the genius who came up with this go to sleep having wet dreams thinking about all the money being earned while he/she/they sleep. Several of these subscribers pay $100-$200 a month buying Cartel coins in addition to their subscriptions. The average probably isn't that high but all my guildies tend to buy a Hypercrate or two each month. And dropping a bunch of subscribers due to a permaban or overly harsh corrective action isn't going to benefit the pitch fork crowd in the long run as this very well could effect the game's bottom line. That bottom line is that it needs to make money. EA needs it to make money. Less money than it's making now is probably not really acceptable in the long run.

 

Finally I offer a suggestion for dealing with this issue:

 

Personally I think BioWare could have fun with this. Place a forced legacy title on exploiters so that everyone can see who used the Ravager exploit. Leave it in place for two weeks or so, but it shouldn't last for longer than a month. Place a debuff on them that makes the content harder. Since they got 198's make the debuff effectively set their gear at 192's or 186 level for the duration. Think of it as an inverse NiM Pilgrim buff but worse.

 

In future content it would be awesome if NPC dialog would acknowledge that you are cheating scum and aren't to be trusted.

[ron_harmeling]

Mind you, I wouldn't be able to predict how it would finish. I just know laws over here are way more consumer friendly then US laws.

 

For example. If ToS would state it is written under Californian state law and can only be attacked in the State of California, European law supercedes this and renders it null. My country's consumer law states that I can choose to attack ToS and/or product faults under this country's law. Not the Californian one.

 

Consumer law in Europe states furthermore that IF a product doesn't answer to a reasonable expectation of the consumer, he can ask for a full refund.

And this applies also to immateriazed products (software and services).

 

Law supercedes ToS (or any contract for that matter), the AS IF clause in the ToS is hence null and void under European law.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

If they allow lockouts in their game then they can't punish anyone. They should just let it go, improve their QA department, and let this whole thing blow over because 198 gear will become obsolete in the future.

 

Question then.

 

If they don't punish anyone and ignoring how hard it may or may not be for them to do the following ( assume it's none of our business ).

 

Are you for or against them at least being able to remove everything that was illegally gained from anyone who gained it? Including any shells they may have put mods etc. into as a small form of punishment to those that took extra amounts of say 198 mods/enhancements? I.e. you lose the shell you got from CM because you put illegal gear in it - moral of the story don't continuously e xploit something you know is a bug.

 

No bans, no suspensions etc. just that ... opinion?

 

Just to me to claim to do "nothing" seems as extreme as perm banning everyone.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

How did Bioware not completely shut down the instance, even after they made their post, if it was such a big deal and if people are going to be banned over this, why is there no accountability on there part for not doing there due diligence?

 

It truly baffles my mind. I just hope they learn and improve. Many of my friends have un-subbed and my days are numbered. I may or may not come back. Endgame raiding was the biggest thing keeping me here, but that part of the game is clearly not up to par.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Question then.

 

If they don't punish anyone and ignoring how hard it may or may not be for them to do the following ( assume it's none of our business ).

 

Are you for or against them at least being able to remove everything that was illegally gained from anyone who gained it? Including any shells they may have put mods etc. into as a small form of punishment to those that took extra amounts of say 198 mods/enhancements? I.e. you lose the shell you got from CM because you put illegal gear in it - moral of the story don't continuously e xploit something you know is a bug.

 

No bans, no suspensions etc. just that ... opinion?

 

Just to me to claim to do "nothing" seems as extreme as perm banning everyone.

 

BioWare should apologize and that be the end. The damage is already done, as many raiders have left voluntarily.

[Theeko]

It truly baffles my mind. I just hope they learn and improve. Many of my friends have un-subbed and my days are numbered. I may or may not come back. Endgame raiding was the biggest thing keeping me here, but that part of the game is clearly not up to par.

 

Blame that on the exploit, free gear for nothing

[Andryah]

Is using the guild ship transport function to bring others to a datacron an exploit? I'm curious as to what your opinion is on this.

 

Generally: I prefer to let the game devs state what is/is-not an exploit.. seeing as they are the only ones that can actually enforce players in this regard.

 

Specifically: I'm not a datacron seeker, so I am not close enough to the facts to opine on this one.

 

By comparison: Is it an exploit that I can use my Stronghold to quickly port from a planet, work with inventory and the GTN and then port right back to where I was? Not in my opinion.

 

Besides... player opinions as to what is/is-not an exploit is what has this thread and the other one truly wrapped around the axle of rhetorical discussion.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Andryah