Pagy Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 More ad hominem. Stop using your opinion about him or the information he has shared as grounds to attack him. Pick apart the talking points, by all means, if you like.. but do so without making it personal. Here's a novel concept.... agree to disagree. i prefer to agree with the actual definition of "ad hominem" personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Ad hominem, for anyone who wants to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Ad hominem, for anyone who wants to look. I read his biography once. Cool chap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharathos Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'll be impressed if Bioware even bans one single player for this exploit. It is all big talk from Bioware. Hell there are players on my server who do nothing but abuse the living hell out of everyone for no reason and one particular player who enters PVP matches to just sit there and do nothing but abuse the team for being "****ters" with the irony being his scores are always the worst and even when he actually plays, he is still the worst pvper on the server. NUMEROUS tickets have been logged by many many people against said individual and yet no suspension let alone bans have occurred to him and day in and day out, he continues to insult and ruin PVP for anyone unfortunate to be in a team with this waste of space. So no, all this talk about bans?? Not going to happen. Suspensions?? Highly unlikely as well. Maybe gear removal might happen but I think at the end of the day given the state of the game with it's numerous bugs since 3.0, Bioware will just move on and do nothing about the exploiters (After all they knew about the exploit back when 3.0 was in PTS but still let it go live). If they accept player behavior like the example i provided previously then exploiters have nothing to fear as bad behavior be it insulting/harassing or exploiting in game is perfectly fine in Bioware's eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theeko Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'll be impressed if Bioware even bans one single player for this exploit. It is all big talk from Bioware. Hell there are players on my server who do nothing but abuse the living hell out of everyone for no reason and one particular player who enters PVP matches to just sit there and do nothing but abuse the team for being "****ters" with the irony being his scores are always the worst and even when he actually plays, he is still the worst pvper on the server. NUMEROUS tickets have been logged by many many people against said individual and yet no suspension let alone bans have occurred to him and day in and day out, he continues to insult and ruin PVP for anyone unfortunate to be in a team with this waste of space. So no, all this talk about bans?? Not going to happen. Suspensions?? Highly unlikely as well. Maybe gear removal might happen but I think at the end of the day given the state of the game with it's numerous bugs since 3.0, Bioware will just move on and do nothing about the exploiters (After all they knew about the exploit back when 3.0 was in PTS but still let it go live). If they accept player behavior like the example i provided previously then exploiters have nothing to fear as bad behavior be it insulting/harassing or exploiting in game is perfectly fine in Bioware's eyes. Guess the ToS means more to other MMO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscount Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 WOOT! The great witch hunt is almost up to 1500 posts... No where are those cupcakes? I think around page 105... made me hungry for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nGAGE Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I hope this won't be taken too lightly. You can't just walk into a bank-vault and grab some cash just because it was open (in some cases multiple times and with groups) and claim it was accidental. Even if you were to blame BW for it to exist in the first place, a lot of people didn't just happen to stumble upon it by accident, but actually organized or participated in grouped exploiting. That part is the actual crime that needs to be punished. Deliberate exploiting = Organized in-game crime... Serious punishment is in order! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscount Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) I hope this won't be taken too lightly. You can't just walk into a bank-vault and grab some cash just because it was open (in some cases multiple times and with groups) and claim it was accidental. Even if you were to blame BW for it to exist in the first place, a lot of people didn't just happen to stumble upon it by accident, but actually organized or participated in grouped exploiting. That part is the actual crime that needs to be punished. Deliberate exploiting = Organized in-game crime... Serious punishment is in order! I'm sorry... I laugh when I read this post like many others. It's VIRTUAL PIXELS in a game and not actual RL money or a RL Car that belongs to someone already. When it was exploited it didn't remove that from any other person in the game. Let the witch hunt continue and lets round up 'em "Gangsters" now... Edited January 13, 2015 by dscount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nGAGE Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'm sorry... I laugh when I read this post like many others. It's VIRTUAL PIXELS in a game and not actual RL money or a RL Car that belongs to someone already. When it was exploited it didn't remove that from any other person in the game. Let the witch hunt continue and lets round up 'em "Gangsters" now... You make up any excuse you want for yourself. It only surfaces the type of character people are, pixel or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) You've brought up Wildstar several times now, and you've focused exclusively on it's attempt to attract the hardcore crowd when discussing it's failure. I'll agree that by focusing on that segment, its devs clearly narrowed its market appeal. But I would argue that there are two other factors that weighed against its success significantly enough that attributing its failure solely to the focus on hardcore players is misleading. First, the devs chose to create new IP rather than build off of an existing one. While I personally appreciate new worlds, the (IMO) unfortunate reality is that an appropriately chosen existing IP generates more initial interest. Initial interest directly influences the number of initial subscribers, and thus (regardless of the % lost after launch) the number of "long term" subscribers. Second (and IMO, the most important of the three), the devs chose to go with a "love-it-or-leave-it" visual style that was (for most reviews I read) extremely off putting to the target audience. Namely, the choice to attempt to appeal to the old-school crowd with a graphic style more suited to children's programming than the demographics of the paying customers. Basically, they targeted a niche group (hardcore players) and offered them a world that would visually appeal to a different niche (children's games) with no possible connections to anything that might bridge the gap (such as an existing IP). Not a recipe for success. Edit: FYI, I was initially interested when I heard about it [being targeted to a harder core audience than swtor], but the look and feel made it a complete nonstarter for me. Sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'll never know because I won't eat the filthy ... I agree with the additional factors you presented. They blew it in a number of ways for sure.. but the persistent theme if you watch the forum chat now is.. they have no model to attract new players... which worries the core players who are loyal and there for the end game hardcore. Players log in to try the game and are faced with deserted content. They inquire where everyone is.. and if they are on a PvP server they are told to immediately transfer servers. If they are the populated PvE server, they get told that everyone playing is playing at cap level. With nothing else to hold player interest... they log out and likely quit after their trial. I'm focused on just the hardcore raiding failure component of their business model precisely because it is a key aspect of the game that they constantly promoted in advance of launch and clearly DID put extensive development focus on it to go live with large raids in place. It also is raiding that is being debated as a sub discussion in this thread. The IP issue for Wildstar is similar to that of Rift. It simply carries no energy into the MMO, because the IP is unique to the MMO. So.. yeah.. when you make up an IP for an MMO.. the broad themes of that IP may appeal, but the nuances of it have no inherent player draw or loyalty from the broader audience. Then again.. the IP is free when you don't have to license it.. so it gives you more in terms of operating margins. There is absolutely no question that SWTOR benefited in it's dark hours by being an iconic and popular IP. Edited January 13, 2015 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscount Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You make up any excuse you want for yourself. It only surfaces the type of character people are, pixel or not. Laughing... laughing some more and since I play a Sith... evil laughing for those RP'rs reading this. I'm amazed at the sheer volume of outcry here and half baked comparison to "Real Life" scenarios (Car, Bank, etc). This entire post (IMHO) is a WITCH HUNT.. plain and simple. While I agree something should be done I'm going to leave that to BW to handle and hope they do what is "right" to fix things (Not some of the stupid draconian suggestions the WITCH HUNT mob mentality has called out). Everyone just needs to a take a chill pill and let BW do it's job and handle the situation as they have already stated they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I don't see the relevance of discussing percentages of raiders, hardcores, and the like. The only limit on how much of the player base could use the exploit was how many of them had bought Shadow of Revan and where either subs or bought an ops pass. You did not need to be a raider. You did not need the cooperation of a raider. Knowing a guildmate with a friend who had a guildmate who knew a raider with the lockout was easily enough. The exploit was a highly contagious virtual social disease, essentially. So there's no reason to think "casuals" who had never before entered an ops instance did not exploit the bug. They could have, and it seems likely some did. How many? Only BioWare knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I made unsubstantiated claims and conclusions based on false premises. I am guilty of the very thing I accused you of. There, i corrected that for you. Feel free to continue iceskating uphill if you wish. The difference is you don't like my opinions but stand by yours. Have a good night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 There, i corrected that for you. Feel free to continue iceskating uphill if you wish. The difference is you don't like my opinions but stand by yours. Have a good night. hehe.. pretty much, IMO. Being a forum chew toy is always fun and exciting isn't it LA? The tactic when someone decides you are their personal chew toy is to make them gag on their efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 hehe.. pretty much, IMO. Being a forum chew toy is always fun and exciting isn't it LA? The tactic when someone decides you are their personal chew toy is to make them gag on their efforts. Hehe, remember the days when I was reviled as a game hater? Some times I actually miss those days. Far too many folks seem to be challenged by my unimportant opinions lately. I can't seem to get folks to understand the very important point that my opinion equals squat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aehgo Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 If Bioware took this serious they would of patched it sooner....Posting officially about it on forums brought more attention to it and probably more people using it... Punishment?Nothing too severe,there are too many people using it...if they came down with a ban hammer on everybody the game itself would suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hehe, remember the days when I was reviled as a game hater? Some times I actually miss those days. Far too many folks seem to be challenged by my unimportant opinions lately. I can't seem to get folks to understand the very important point that my opinion equals squat. Heh.. well, expressing an opinion (any opinion) in a gaming forum is pretty much equivalent to dropping a catnip ball into a room full of cats. Much craziness will ensue.. no matter what. There could even be claw and bite injuries. :p:p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Second, I want to make it clear that the same studies that make certain conclusions about hardcore gamers also tend to mention how LOYAL those gamers are. Casuals tend to be VERY transient in nature, so even if it is a larger revenue stream it is not a very reliable one. <snip> I just wanted to clearly post my definitions of each player type. Oh I am having Deja Vu flashbacks now from another discussion in which this was brought up. OT for sure, but as mentioned, I think a lot of these definitions are a bit disingenuous to the gaming community. Hardcore gamers tend to be transient as well as they are continually trying out each new shiney as it comes down the block. Hardcore fans tend to be more loyal and spend more on the particular game that they are playing - that group of course can contain both "casual" and "hardcore" players. Quoting industry sources which state only a small portion of players actively participate in progression end game content is one thing, its quite another to spout off made up numbers claiming F2P casuals spend more on the game than subscribers who are active in group content. The big glaring problem I see with a lot of his posts is drawing the conclusion that very few players participate at all in end game content based on older data points from times and games where the vast majority of end game content was very exclusionary. Look at what SWTOR has done in the past year or so to encourage more group participation. From group finder to rewards systems to bolster to release of content such as tactical FPs, they have done a lot to encourage broader participation in all aspects of content. There are SM operations tuned for average player ability, then a harder difficulty for those wanting a bit more challenge, and an even harder difficulty for the hard core progression crowd. WoW has done much the same and now has four difficulties for every raid, a group finder feature which auto forms groups across servers for the easiest content, another tool which assists players in finding and forming groups across servers with flexible raid size for the middle difficulties, and a very hard difficulty set to a fixed size with no cross server grouping for the hard core crowd. So while the old 'very few ever participate in end game' content data points might still hold true with respect to the most difficult progression type content, I don't see anything which would support the conclusion that the vast majority do not participate in any way in end game content. If that were true, I'd think we'd see less and less development spent on such content rather than what we see, which is more and more development spent on such content. To add to what Andryah said in reply to this post, it may be true that SWTOR, among other games, has made the introduction to Raids a bit more palatable to the "casual" audience, but that does not mean any more of them are actually playing than would be the typical norm as evidenced by the recent studies and comments made by other developers. Is it likely, based on some of our anecdotal evidence? Certainly, but in no way does the evidence bear out a much higher number than is normally seen. Again, even the Raids in SWTOR demand a certain commitment that is generally not acceptable to the "casuals" playing the game. Development time is still spent on Raiding (though if you ask any SWTOR Raider, they'll tell you it's not nearly enough time - just like PvP) because of the still prevalent attitude that "endgame" is the reason to play an MMO and not the experience of the leveling game. That of course is because the "vocal minority" of the gaming community tends to be the ones who are more inclined to play that content, the non-vocal majority are content to play their preferred content while leveling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Hehe, remember the days when I was reviled as a game hater? Some times I actually miss those days. Far too many folks seem to be challenged by my unimportant opinions lately. I can't seem to get folks to understand the very important point that my opinion equals squat. It makes me laugh that I'm simultaneously seen as both a carebear and a complete troll / jerk... Edited January 13, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hehe, remember the days when I was reviled as a game hater? Some times I actually miss those days. Far too many folks seem to be challenged by my unimportant opinions lately. I can't seem to get folks to understand the very important point that my opinion equals squat. Well, this only helps to illuminate some of the prevailing problems that we are now experiencing in society today. But of course, that is waaaaay OT for this topic and forum. However, some of these posters bring to mind the following article I read a while back: http://winning-teams.com/recognizenarcissist.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 It makes me laugh that I'm simultaneously seen as both a carebear and a complete troll / jerk... You're a trolling carejerk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyVix Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 It makes me laugh that I'm simultaneously seen as both a carebear and a complete troll / jerk... No, just the later one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 No, just the later one. Then you haven't been paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'm glad I'm not seen as either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZETA_SCORPII Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) I agree with the additional factors you presented. They blew it in a number of ways for sure.. but the persistent theme if you watch the forum chat now is.. they have no model to attract new players... which worries the core players who are loyal and there for the end game hardcore. Players log in to try the game and are faced with deserted content. They inquire where everyone is.. and if they are on a PvP server they are told to immediately transfer servers. If they are the populated PvE server, they get told that everyone playing is playing at cap level. With nothing else to hold player interest... they log out and likely quit after their trial. I'm focused on just the hardcore raiding failure component of their business model precisely because it is a key aspect of the game that they constantly promoted in advance of launch and clearly DID put extensive development focus on it to go live with large raids in place. It also is raiding that is being debated as a sub discussion in this thread. The IP issue for Wildstar is similar to that of Rift. It simply carries no energy into the MMO, because the IP is unique to the MMO. So.. yeah.. when you make up an IP for an MMO.. the broad themes of that IP may appeal, but the nuances of it have no inherent player draw or loyalty from the broader audience. Then again.. the IP is free when you don't have to license it.. so it gives you more in terms of operating margins. There is absolutely no question that SWTOR benefited in it's dark hours by being an iconic and popular IP. Wildstar's biggest drawback was its "Rachet and Clank" graphics. Why would anyone take that game serious? Now, if Wildstar had "grown up" graphics like Star Citizen, well, grown ups would have stuck around and the game would have flourished. The devs simply thought that they could bring out the inner 8 year old in MMO players, which clearly wasn't the case. Edited January 13, 2015 by ZETA_SCORPII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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