regarding punishment for exploit

[mikebevo]

That's odd, I always see it as a negative when a company has to bride people to play their game. Do you buy a ****** car just cause you get a cool hat to go with it too?

People do it all the time. One word REBATES.

[Darkwords]

the player bases reaction to the exploits being discussed are a direct reflection of the general apathy many have right now to 3.0 and EA's dev team. I'm not surprised how many people used the exploit since its been known for at least a month. To be honest the general player opinion I've seen has been - I'm ready to move on....just give me a reason.

 

My feelings EXACTLY. Well said.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I think regardless of what happens with this the first and foremost thing they need to do is somehow remove the gear from people who didn't earn it ( almost everyone really ).

 

We really have no idea how any sort of logging on their end works or what not but it's quite entirely possible they've made up a script that can easily identify anyone who has gotten the achievement/gear from an actual boss kill vs a walk in.

 

That being the case they then have the choice of how to proceed and personally I would like them to take said list and delete any gear from all those players that contains the ill gotten level of modifications ( + the rest ) regardless of if it was the original item it came in or not ( so that 1 million credit+ chest you bought might go bye bye, punishment enough me thinks ). This would include the inventory, cargo, legacy holds and any GTN listings to do with said content also and also removing any known schematics.

 

As for the materials ... these really just need to be removed from everyone everywhere altogether to start fresh.

From what I gather those that could have gained it legitmately is a rather small list and one of the guilds that can do so seems to be the guild responsible for the whole issue in the first place ( if that's true I would love to see them disbanded and possibly a couple of perm bans thrown in but that will never happen with the buddy buddy system around here so wishful thinking ). To think that said guild still has the nerve to try sell legit runs for cash is rather humorous also.

 

Being such a small list maybe then offer up those that feel they had legitimate mats removed to contact CS for a review and to be given said mats back noting if you ask for a review and it turns out you had gained them illegally you would face further punishments for wasting CS time.

 

I know it all sounds like hard work but the general consensus I get from this thread is that BW have dropped the ball here so they need to do some hard work to restore some faith to the more honest of the community.

 

As for giving those of us who chose not to exploit gear ... no thanks, we shouldn't be rewarded for just not being tolls. That would also imply the gear would stay with those that did exploit meaning those that didn't still end up worse off if you are a raider/PVE player as we still don't have the gear to do content that exploiters do and will be excluded from content runs as a result. A mount or crystal isn't going to fix that.

 

As I see it the gear HAS to be removed because to not do so punishes the honest players too much. We would then not be able to do PUGS or possibly even guild runs because we won't have the gear that everyone who did exploit has ( and from what I can tell it's the majority of harbinger level 60's not a minority ) and thus will be passed over as a result.

 

The only other option is to give everyone in game equivalent gear ( that the exploiters got ) when they are or hit 60 and call this round of BiS gear a write off. That would be the easiest route for BW that at least doesn't punish the honest players and would keep on playing. The downside is it would remove the "progression" aspect of HM runs but at least that really only effects the minority of the community and possible hurts the possible cheating guild that started all this in that they won't be able to make as much money selling legit paid runs anymore since everyone would already have the gear.

 

Either way be interesting to see what happens and whether or not I keep playing or retire until the next big content update with new tiers of gear added ( at least all my bays of CM gear will be worth more by then and I won't ahve to spend an hour a day working through clearing it all ).

[AMulls]

I'm speechless.

 

No, really, this is my face (O.O)

 

If it makes you feel better, though, I'm a pvper primarily. I've never even set foot in TFB or either of the Oricon Ops, never finished S&V or EC, and only completed EV and KP.

 

So, I don't think you have worry about me taking your hypothetical spot in the hypothetical raid, so you don't have to put in any effort for joining a group or creating your own.

[GadgetDon]

Yesterday was the first day of official acknowledgement that it was considered an exploit (and even in that announcement they aren't saying what it is so in theory might be talking about something else). What is the point where strategically using game mechanics becomes an "exploit"? From what I've seen of what gets shut down as an exploit and what is allowed to continue, there's no thick black obvious line. The only way you know it's an exploit is retroactively when a patch disables it - there was one "exploit" where threads were removed and people banned for discussing it to have the devs later come in an say "No, it's not an exploit".

 

And no, everyone saying "it's an exploit" doesn't make it so. I've heard people say that stealthing is an exploit. I've even heard people say that crafting in conquest is an exploit.

 

And yet we've got a thread here of people calling for draconian punishments for people who have done something that has never been stated before yesterday to be against the rules.

 

I get the concern about "if we tell people that an exploit is illegal that brings attention to it and people will do it". It's a fair point. But the other aspect of that is that, until that announcement is made, it's legal and punishing people after the past just is wrong.

 

For the record, no, I haven't participated in this exploit. The only exploit I know I've participated in was luring the beast in the Athis flashpoint far from the platform so the adds don't spawn (and the only reason I know it was an exploit is because it was made not to work). But there may be others in the future.

[Khevar]

What is the point where strategically using game mechanics becomes an "exploit"?

There's a difference between using game mechanics and taking advantage of a bug.

 

Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the current situation being discussed. But if you do know the specifics of how it was accomplished, do you really think that anyone believed it wasn't a bug?

Edited January 8, 2015 by Khevar

[RiVaN_]

It's a videogame, not life and death.

Dig deal, who cares.

One way or another, who cares? Why care?

It's a game, just a game. It isn't your family, your dog, your friends, your beer, or whatever you care about. It is a video game,why does all this matter so much? Seriously, I have no idea why it is worthy of nearly 400 posts in this thread.

 

If you care so much about what happened in a video game to turn this thread in to 40 (***edit*** an additional 4 pages filled in while I wrote this post...) pages of bickering then maybe it is time to explore other avenues of entertainment.

Sure I play a lot and I post in the forums a lot, but ultimately I don't care nearly as much as all of you seem to care. No matter what happens, no matter what BW decides to do I'm gonna pay my sub, play a few hours a night and keep on keepin on.

 

Players think others are dirty cheaters, ok. People think SoR was a turd, ok.

BW will do whatever they wanna do, oh well, who cares. Keep playing or quit playing, in the end the only one who really cares about what you do and what you think of all this is you. bickering, calling people names and spreading hate does nothing but spread the hate.

 

Punishment, no punishment, who cares. It's a video game.

Now if someone hurt my Kids, my wife, my parents, my dog, my fish, took my beer or insulted my in-laws maybe I would care.... Well maybe it depends on what they say about my mother-in-law... The point is, everyone is all fired up over something that happened in a make-believe world and has no bearing on real life...

Edited January 8, 2015 by RiVaN_

[ArcTrooperElite]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7930312#edit7930312

 

Glad action is being taken, however I recognise that BW cannot afford to ban a host of players (especially if they are subscribers). So how about one of the following solutions:

 

- Provide a higher rated set of gear to all accounts that did not use the exploit (BOA naturally)

 

- Prevent those accounts that did use the exploit from accessing new Raid content when it is released for a period of 3 months.

 

Should have the desired effect.

 

Soooo you want to reward people who did not use an exploit to get gear they did not earn by giving them gear they did not earn....cough......hypocrit.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I get the concern about "if we tell people that an exploit is illegal that brings attention to it and people will do it". It's a fair point. But the other aspect of that is that, until that announcement is made, it's legal and punishing people after the past just is wrong.

 

From what I gather this isn't like other "exploits" where it's maybe twisting mechanics to make things easier than intended. This is blatantly getting gear etc. for something you are not entitled to. We all know we kill something we may get gear or achievements thus if you aren't killing something and getting gear and an achievement for saying you kill something you didn't then it's fairly clear it's a pure exploit and not just twisting fight mechanics etc. to suit.

 

Whilst I see your point this one is more of a common sense nature and no BW can't go announcing what it is. The rules are fairly clear on what can happen when one exploits content also and they don't have to tell you what is or is not an exploit before you go and do it for you to know if it was safe or not.

 

Even in your own example you admittedly did something you knew may have been not quite correct or intended so you run the risk of breaking that rule and suffering the punishment as a result. If they so chose to punish you for it you would have noone to blame but yourself.

 

I doubt there is a single person who has done this or many of the other "exploits" mentioned ( nefra for example ) that thought it was working intended ( though especially this exploit ) and thus by running that risk they have opened themselves to the full level of punishment by Bioware if they so choose to implement it.

[Pagy]

And what happens when a raid leader picks you over me because you have better gera you obtained by cheating?

its a good thing that bw gave us all the ability to start ops groups

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Punishment, no punishment, who cares. It's a video game.

 

If this is your general opinion why even bother posting? Go play the game or do something else because all you are doing is increasing the post count for no constructive reason to the original discussion. If you don't care then don't care, don't post about not caring, it wastes everyone's time.

[Max_Killjoy]

I didn't care at first, but the overblown outrage and the ridiculous demands for "death penalty" (Permaban! Strip them of all gear! Take away levels!) punishments have pushed me to be in favor if Bioware doing nothing at all to anyone who took part.

[captpickles]

Soooo you want to reward people who did not use an exploit to get gear they did not earn by giving them gear they did not earn....cough......hypocrit.

 

hmmm sounds fair to me. levels the playing field... or are you against something being fair?

[Zorvan]

I don't know how hard this is from a developer standpoint.. but why didn't they shut down all instances of the operation once they had knowledge there was an exploit (damage control?)

 

Because that would have required common sense and/or quick thinking. Neither of which EAware has demonstrated lately.

[Foambreaker]

Soooo you want to reward people who did not use an exploit to get gear they did not earn by giving them gear they did not earn....cough......hypocrit.

 

This is why they need to ban.

 

The fix is worse and makes them look stupid.

 

And they can't just turn the people who did not exploit into second class gear wise by doing nothing.

 

Of course most the people who used this exploit are also the arrogant elite so they all think the "casuals" should be second class

[Jerba]

What is the point where strategically using game mechanics becomes an "exploit"? From what I've seen of what gets shut down as an exploit and what is allowed to continue, there's no thick black obvious line. The only way you know it's an exploit is retroactively when a patch disables it - there was one "exploit" where threads were removed and people banned for discussing it to have the devs later come in an say "No, it's not an exploit".

Of course, the difference between a bug and an exploit is a blurry one, I myself have thought something a bug when the devs considered it an exploit, and vice-versa.

Wildstar once gave an excellent comment on this issue:

If you find a game system that seems to be providing rewards beyond what is reasonable, or can be manipulated to provide rewards beyond what is reasonable, it is your responsibility to report it to the CS or Community team and STOP using the exploit. [...]

 

“What is reasonable?” you may ask. While not every player is a game designer or a mathematician, most can understand the concept of risk versus reward. The more risky or challenging an endeavor, the better the rewards should be. The flip side of that is that the more rewarding an endeavor, the riskier or more challenging it should be. If something is very easy or quickly repeatable in a short time, but gives out substantial rewards, it’s probably not working as intended.

Of course, EA's SOP would never allow for such a casual explanation of SWTOR's policy, but the spirit is the same here. In this case, just walking in and getting gear as well as millions of credits worth of mats just screams at an unreasonable reward for the time and effort invested and can under no convincing explanation be considered working as intended.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Jerba

[Foambreaker]

I don't know how hard this is from a developer standpoint.. but why didn't they shut down all instances of the operation once they had knowledge there was an exploit (damage control?)...

 

And punish all the customers not exploiting?

 

It (the exploit) was obvious, it was a choice.

 

It (the exploit) was a bad choice...

Edited January 8, 2015 by Foambreaker

[ArcTrooperElite]

hmmm sounds fair to me. levels the playing field... or are you against something being fair?

 

I'm not at all against it. I just think it's hypocritical to sit up on your high horse calling for punishment and then asking for the same reward for not doing it.

[Simcity]

Because that would have required common sense and/or quick thinking. Neither of which EAware has demonstrated lately.

 

Ah, makes sense

[XiamaraSimi]

I didn't care at first, but the overblown outrage and the ridiculous demands for "death penalty" (Permaban! Strip them of all gear! Take away levels!) punishments have pushed me to be in favor if Bioware doing nothing at all to anyone who took part.

 

I didn't start posting til -after- Eric made his post. My personal take is people need to be held responsible for their own actions, regardless if they are physical or virtual. We have seen over the years that people tend to start to do as they please when they aren't called to task.

 

Just look all the people who do and say deplorable/disgusting things in online communities. Maybe, just maybe if they are punished for behaving against the rules in one area, they just might -not- the next time an opportunity to do so again arises in the same or other areas.

 

Ignoring bad behavior gives the impression that there isn't anything wrong with said bad behavior.

 

"Oh I wasn't going to eat that sandwhich til lunch anyhow, so its ok that Herb from accounting stole it out of the work fridge and ate it on his 10 am break." Yeah... no...

 

So yes, I believe that people who cheat in a video game should be punished, just like people who cheat at casinos and the like, or at anything else in life that is doing something wrong.

Edited January 8, 2015 by XiamaraSimi

[Tsillah]

Eric said the following: In summary, we are aware of the exploit taking place and we will be taking appropriate action against those who have abused it.

 

Was that unclear or are we here discussing how we don't believe BW will do this the way we want it done ourselves?

 

Public executions are so middle ages....really...

[LordArtemis]

The people that "do not care" AND have no opinion on the matter are not posting in this thread....because they do not care and have no opinion on the matter.

 

If you are posting in this thread, you likely care, have an opinion on the matter or both. To try and claim otherwise is absurd.

[RandomXChance]

The people that "do not care" AND have no opinion on the matter are not posting in this thread....because they do not care and have no opinion on the matter.

 

If you are posting in this thread, you likely care, have an opinion on the matter or both. To try and claim otherwise is absurd.

 

Logic and common sense in a forum post? It bogles the mind!

 

Just stop it with such nonsense....

[Infernixx]

I'm just curious to see if BW comes down hard on their subscriber base. Because, to be blunt, most of those taking advantage of the exploit were subscribers.

 

And how many of those subscribers buy heavily from the Cartel Market?

 

There's a fine line here that needs to be carefully tread.

[AizaTalzin]

If they cop out and give light punishment just because "exploiters were subscribers" that would only breed more contempt amongst the player base and in turn breed an atmosphere for players to just go full throttle on the next exploit. If they do not come down hard on this exploit then the next big one will blow up in such a way that it will make this one look minimal in size of player abuse.

 

I want them to nail every exploiters hides to the wall and hold them up like a trophy kills.