Kurkina Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I have finally acquired 6 (192) pieces and am now trying to work out how to take advantage of the auto-crit dispatch after master strike. I have experimented with several ways of doing this: 1. Precision + Master Strike (under Zen) > Dispatch This gets the most out of the actual dispatch (because it is within the precision window and the Zen bonus applies to it), but it simply replaces clashing blast as the "clip" skill, and therefore might not affect overall damage. 2. Master Strike > Precison+Dispatch > Clashing Blast This gives a very stong Precision window with 2 auto-crits, but moves Master Strike out of the window, which is not ideal. 3. Precision + Master Strike (under Zen) > Clashing Blast > Dispatch CB and Dispatch will crit for a nice sequence of "bursty" skills, but Dispatch is out of the precision window and therefore will not do its maximum potential damage. Anyone have experience with these things, or better ideas? Edited January 7, 2015 by Kurkina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zadtro Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I have heard of players with a full alacrity build and they can just about fit in viscous throw.dispatch, devastating blast/crashing blast and the first 2 hits of ravage/master strike. That was with 30 stacks used though so it isn't good for a constant rotation unless everything falls right into place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkina Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 In that order? That doesn't make sense, as the Dispatch auto-crit procs after Master Strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapperlot Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 In my Opinion it´s not worth to think about it. A guaranteed Crit every 60 seconds Is more ore less useless in PvE. If you have acsess to the old 186 Set, take the old 4Piece Bonus + the 2 Piece Bonus from the new one. You lose 40 Strengh and some health but you get more damage from every MasterStrike and after Berserk a 5 second longer and 1% higher damage Bonus to all skills. Maybe on 198 when you loose 80 Strengh it´s better than the old one, but i don´t think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zadtro Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Well maybe not in that order but you could do master strike and 1 other, there has to be a compromise somewhere I suppose. Or they could un-nerf precision/gore and make it really good again, 4.5 secs duration. Don't see why they nerfed it :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollyonus Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Yo, that 3rd new bonus could be quite confusing and I tried to change my rotation gospel a little and it looks fine for me. 1st window under Precision - FL+Zen---ZS---PS---MS---D (3rd bonus on CD since this) 2nd window under Precision (mostly with VC) - Zen---ZS---PS---MS---CB and D if proc. This takes first 30s of fight. Windows without Zen (minimum) should priorize CB + D on procs ofc since MS is not priority in most of fights (hard moving) and is very situationable. This looks like most efficient usage of that bonus. Yes, you will reduce your burst dmg but not so much and I think advantage of higher sustained dmg is quite nice compensation of that. Still testing and if anyone has better idea, more than welcome. And ye, according me Precision should be 4s at least because of insane server lags and rightly because of appropriate usage of sentinel's gear bonus. Edited January 7, 2015 by Apollyonus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahadori Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 In my Opinion it´s not worth to think about it. A guaranteed Crit every 60 seconds Is more ore less useless in PvE. If you have acsess to the old 186 Set, take the old 4Piece Bonus + the 2 Piece Bonus from the new one. You lose 40 Strengh and some health but you get more damage from every MasterStrike and after Berserk a 5 second longer and 1% higher damage Bonus to all skills. Maybe on 198 when you loose 80 Strengh it´s better than the old one, but i don´t think so. I'm doing a good amount of testing right now towards this end. By inspection the 4 set is worse and the 6 set will only proc you a few thousand more damage on use with Dispatch every 60s as you said. Once all my testing between the old 4 set + new 2 set and the new 6 set is finalized i'll post my findings. From pure inspection i feel mixing the old and new will produce better DPS but again i need to finish testing before i stand behind that statement confidently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkina Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 And ye, according me Precision should be 4s at least because of insane server lags and rightly because of appropriate usage of sentinel's gear bonus. Makes me think ... with the various to-and-fro with regards to the reported length of Precision/Gore pre 3.0, perhaps the devs dropped the ball a little with the 6-piece bonus? What I mean is that maybe the 6-piece bonus was designed to work with a longer Precision window, making every third precision window: (Zen) Precision+MasterStrike > CB > Dispatch ... with guaranteed crits. This seems worthy of a 6-piece bonus. When the Precision Window was later shortened to 3 seconds, perhpas they just "forgot" that the 6-piece bonus will be out in the cold, or just didn't bother to change the bonus to something useful given the shortened window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dassem Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I'm doing a good amount of testing right now towards this end. By inspection the 4 set is worse and the 6 set will only proc you a few thousand more damage on use with Dispatch every 60s as you said. Once all my testing between the old 4 set + new 2 set and the new 6 set is finalized i'll post my findings. From pure inspection i feel mixing the old and new will produce better DPS but again i need to finish testing before i stand behind that statement confidently. I'd be really interested to know your findings on this as its been something that's been bugging me since 3.0 launched. Sadly I'm a slacker and haven't been able to get the gear to test, so I've just been hoping someone would look into it. My gut feeling is old 4pc + new 2pc is the highest dps but hey what does my gut know. Now just need to do some crit and alacrity testing of my own when I get better gear and time, oh what fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Pase Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Hi. Did anyone gathered experience with the six piece set bonus for watchmann? Is it really a dps gain to have merciless slash hit critical every minute? Or should i go with the old setbonus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardarell_Solo Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I did the "practical" math yesterday evening and new 6pc is actually a slight increase in DPS even for 192 gear for Watchman. It's a more substantial one for 198 gear obviously. Method I used: Took a 1 Million Parse done with old 2pc and new 4pc and calculated reduced Master Strike damage if I hadn't had old 2pc. Then calculated DPS increase by expected number of additional Merciless Crits (MH and OH) if I had new 6pc. That already gave a slight increase in total damage done (which actually surprised me). You then have to calculate 20 more mainstat from the 2 new 192 armorings over old 186s and then it's definitely an increase. I was really surprised by this, since old 2pc just "sounds" better then the new 6pc. As a matter of fact it's not, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkina Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 You then have to calculate 20 more mainstat from the 2 new 192 armorings over old 186s and then it's definitely an increase. In fact many people will actually be replacing 180's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardarell_Solo Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 In fact many people will actually be replacing 180's. In that case it's obviously a substantial DPS gain to go new 6pc, no questions asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapperlot Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I did the "practical" math yesterday evening and new 6pc is actually a slight increase in DPS even for 192 gear for Watchman. It's a more substantial one for 198 gear obviously. Method I used: Took a 1 Million Parse done with old 2pc and new 4pc and calculated reduced Master Strike damage if I hadn't had old 2pc. Then calculated DPS increase by expected number of additional Merciless Crits (MH and OH) if I had new 6pc. That already gave a slight increase in total damage done (which actually surprised me). You then have to calculate 20 more mainstat from the 2 new 192 armorings over old 186s and then it's definitely an increase. I was really surprised by this, since old 2pc just "sounds" better then the new 6pc. As a matter of fact it's not, though... I have to disagree a little bit. If you have access to the old 186 Set you have to take old 4 and new 2 Set. Than it isn´t that easy to evaluate. With that you have to include an 5sec overall (inkl dot´s) damage increase of 5% and additional 10 sec overall damage increse of 1%. Only a simple example: In my parses you will get max 4 Hits with a guaranteed Crit in a 3 minute + Parse. I say about 16K. Let´s say you have a 25% crit cance anyway then there a 3 guarantees left. 12K I do about 12 ravages in such a parse. 10k + additional 8% That are about 9.5K more in these 12 ravages. Lets say you do 4000 dps. (for the easy way) That´s around 10 Berserk in a parse. 10 Berserk x 5% overall damge increse x 5 sec =10K Additional 10 Berserk x 1% x 10 sec = 4K Lets say this Parse take 220 seconds. 12 K from these 3 guaranteed crits (6piece Set) / 220 sec = ca.50 dps 9.5k+10k+4k from the old 4 Bonus = ca 100 dps I know this example far too easy, but it matches with my experience. (If you can speak about realy good testing with all these Server Lags) But I would be very pleased if we can discuss such thing in game. In german it would be much more easy for me, my english isn´t very good:rolleyes: And i know only a few Mara´s to discuss such things, maybe i find you on the republic Side if your signature is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardarell_Solo Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Yeah I'm on T3-M4 so you can find me there. You're aware that 4pc old and new is the same? So for Annihilation the question is only between old 2 pc (bonus on Ravage) and new 6pc (Autocrit on Annihilate). Berserk has nothing to do with it, it's the same in both versions. I have to say that my method's always been to take actual parses and see what average overall damage values are in them and calculate gearing alternative from those practical values. I don't believe in pure theory crafted mathematics. Which is why I'm pretty sure about this (plus my PTS testing said the same). I've done about 100 parses with the combination of old 2pc and new 4pc. I will (probably) get the last item for 6pc tonight and then do 10-20 parses with it and see the comparison of median values and report here. We will know for sure then :-) Edited January 8, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapperlot Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I play on T3-M4 too, thats the reason why i startet about that even that you play the wrong side:D And the old 4set Bonus is in the english and german client 15s 4% and the new one 10s 3%. I apologize for my fault with the wrong %numbers. For some reason i had 5 and 4 Percent in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardarell_Solo Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I must admit I never checked the numbers on the new 4pc, I just saw "Zen, Berserk more damage blablabla" and assumed it was the same as the old one, my bad! Either way, I did intense testing yesterday and here's my assessment: - The new 6pc set bonus (plus one 198 non set armoring) has the highest damage potential, even if you've been 186 BIS before. - The old 4pc plus new 2pc hast the most reliable average damage. You might want to chose it for raiding, if you're 186 BIS. - Stay away from new 4pc plus old 2pc, that's definitely the worst setup. Except you're mostly 180... Simply said: New 6pc set bonus is best, if the automatical critical hits on Annihilate/Merciless do not fall on attacks that "would have critted anyway". This is oversimplifying the matter that the 6pc set bonus is only worth it, if you get more crits on Annihilate/Merciless than usual. If you do, DPS is highest. (My best parse was a 4865. But it had much lower overall Crit than my best parse with old 4pc plus 2 newpc which was 4878, so the parse with new 6pc is worth more...) If you're not full Dread Master, new 6pc is definitely the way to go. This is a result of doing 10 parses each in those different setups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkina Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Simply said: New 6pc set bonus is best... Have also tested in combat, and am getting higher avereage numbers with the 6-piece. Regardless of which way you choose to use the FIRST auto-crit Dispatch (see the first post), the key to getting the most out of this is NOT TO RUSH dispatch for the subsequent auto-crit windows. Notice the icon with the ticking timer: you don't always have to dispatch right away, save it for the next available Precision Window. Furthermore, after playing with this for a while, I'm sure that the devs original intention was to match the 6th set bonus with the old 4.5 second precision window, once a minute. That would give the aforementioned: (Zen) Precision+MasterStrike > Disp > CB ... which might be the burstiest attack in the game. Which kind of fits the combat sentinel concept, in my opinion. So with the change to a 3-second precision window, our 6-piece bonus got left out in the cold. A shame, but it is still useable with proper planning. Edited January 9, 2015 by Kurkina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skettitangles Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 192 6 piece set bonus in Carnage with 1 x alacrity enhancement, 2 x crit/surge enhancements and reusable proto nano-infused adrenal. TTK - 3:51 DPS - 4322 http://torparse.com/view.php?tid=3fea6b6a97f511e48b92002590d9d1b8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor_the_Bruce Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Well maybe not in that order but you could do master strike and 1 other, there has to be a compromise somewhere I suppose. Or they could un-nerf precision/gore and make it really good again, 4.5 secs duration. Don't see why they nerfed it :/ My only guess as to why they nerfed it to 3 seconds was because of the change to Alacrity. If they changed Alacrity and kept Gore at 4.5 seconds, just imagine how much damage a 33% minimum Berserk Carnage Maruader could dish out in that amount of time. The complaints on the forums would be endless! Calls for them to be nerfed would be all over the place. Alacrity reduces the GCD of your abilitiies, so you are able to use your Massacre's much much quicker (33% faster at least when Beserk is active) and also Alacrity changes the cooldowns of your abilities also so you get Ravage back quicker. Alacrity is a huge difference maker for Marauders and those changes to it were the reason why Gore was changed. Maybe if they tweaked it to 3.5 seconds it wouldn't be to severe of a damage output increase but 4.5 seconds would be overpowered as Alacrity currently is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarodx Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 192 6 piece set bonus in Carnage with 1 x alacrity enhancement, 2 x crit/surge enhancements and reusable proto nano-infused adrenal. TTK - 3:51 DPS - 4322 http://torparse.com/view.php?tid=3fea6b6a97f511e48b92002590d9d1b8 Hello, 4.3k damage white 192 gear is very low. In comparison with other classes is ridiculous. It is your best parser? Good job BW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skettitangles Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Hello, 4.3k damage white 192 gear is very low. In comparison with other classes is ridiculous. It is your best parser? Good job BW. That was just my first dummy parse in that mix of gear with 6pc set bonus. Haven't done any more since. Was a boost for me upgrading from 180 set bonus. My dps is about average for Carnage mara. I've heard of some peeps getting more like 4.6k in Carnage with worse gear so I'm keen to see more Carnage combat logs and posts on gear to be able to experiment and improve more. Even the best Annihilation parses I've seen have been well below the dummy parses for several other ACs. Either way, it's killing ops bosses that counts right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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