Disenfranchised AND Bored - A "2 for 1" PVP deal

[Thermisticles]

Hi guys,

 

I love Mercs - that simple. I have tried other classes, but always gravitate back to the Merc.

 

So when 3.0 came along, i tried out different options to optimize the class.

 

I quickly found myself apologizing (on a consistent basis) to the group, either 8 man or 4 man, because i knew i'd die, hard and fast, and not meaningfully contribute to the outcome.

 

But i persisted. Slowly, painfully, I've been gearing him up (many imperials on my team died on my behalf to make this happen) Currently half his gear is 176 gear.

 

So far, either 2 things happen.

 

I either get taken out quick by 2-4 opponents, rinse and repeat.

 

or

 

I am ignored and i put out 1st or 2nd top dps and get 0 assisted kills, 0 solo kills - even though i'm focusing 1 opponent and aoe'ing.

 

Healers, tanks, the odd sage and scoundrel, with that mix, im either incredibly bored or die - often. e.g. 9 - 12 times - which in itself, is incredibly disenfranchising.

 

Some might say 'l2p' issue - I am considered to be a good Merc player by my peers, and frequently have unsolicited invites from others wishing to group for pvp. Merc v's Merc, i usually win almost 3 in 4 engagements, and half the time v's marauders (who are at a similar gear level), so I regard myself as at least competent.

 

I am a 'founder', who left the game for 6 months initially (way too buggy back then) then came back and have been a sub ever since.

 

Yesterday, for the 1st time, i thought about leaving swtor for another game. Before you wave me goodbye (lol), i'd like to ask how i can rectify this issue.

 

My desire is it stay, and have fun - what can i do to fix the merc - ie, get kills on the board again <insert evil grin here>,

 

Thanks,

 

Thermisticles

Edited January 7, 2015 by Thermisticles

[emeraldon]

 

 

I am considered to be a good Merc player by my peers

 

hahahaha

 

My desire is it stay, and have fun - what can i do to fix the merc - ie, get kills on the board again <insert evil grin here>,

 

 

You can't really do anything to fix merc. Your class is getting the long shaft in ranked because of the class' poor defenisve cooldowns. It's not something you can fix or "do better" - any team focusing you will kill you unless they are hodor. Depending a bit on your group composition, you will be deaded first. It's up to BeeDubya to balance this out soonTM

[foxmob]

best advice for merc is to hang back. keep your teammates between yourself and your opponents. in solo rated and 8v8 and reg arenas, the opposing players will know that you have crappy defenses and will try to take you out first. you can use that to your advantage, much like cavalry running into a phalanx, you can use your own melee to cut them apart while you hang in back and simply...back up. that's right. you are the bait. as a merc, you should have no difficulty killing or at least kiting one opposing play (of any class).

 

basically, you buy time for your teammates to take out the other team, who get so focused on YOU that they just eat it form the rest of your team. I've done this successfully many times. it only works in yolo and regs, and only when you don't have a trinity comp. also...it never works against multiple stealth (usually sins). you can't see them coming, and they can easily slip by your teammates to get to you.

 

for kiting, you want to net (of course). but I'd save my instant buff (tech override?) for an instant cast concussion charge (combat mezz). obviously you have the punt and 4s stun at your disposal. Ideally, you can whittle down one player via kiting while your teammates bang on the other team. when they finally decide they have to fight your teammates, you get to stop. turn around and wreck them. remember that as you're running away, you can spam that terrible baby heal on yourself (used to be tied to rapid shots in heal cell). that will build your supercharger and help keep you up while your instant heal is on cd.

 

for trinity comps, you should more or less hold your ground. otherwise, you're as likely to los your healer or range your tank. so that limits your kiting capabilities, but with a guard and heals, you have much stronger defenses. you still want to be on the back line, but not the way you need to be in other formats.

 

I'm not the greatest merc/mando, but other than the checkmate that sins present, you can contribute. unfortunately, if 2 or more melee reach you, it's probably going to be a quick death. you can't punt the juggs or sins. if you recognize the mara, he can be controlled. iunno. gl. lol

[Thermisticles]

I have tried kiting, but it very little impact. Its usually a Jugg that will leap to me, or a operative/assassin strike from behind. Either way, they are in my face, and not going anywhere. The 'barrel roll/leap/sprint benefit of these classes negates kiting quite nicely, even when knocked back. The best I've been able to achieve is lOS (which now is a weaker mechanic in 3.0)

 

I took 'stabilized armor' for additional survivability, but frankly, the extra few seconds it buys me is a dubious benefit at best - yet to change it though.

 

Electronet doesn't seem as effective these days either - honestly found it most effective against Juggs, they seem surprised most often than not, not knowing how to respond. Assassins and Operatives are only caught if they don't have their cool-downs (obviously).

 

I used to be able to cast and run, but ditched that (since every class is more mobile than mine, didn't seem to be must point in trying to increase movement at all). Instead, i opted for a faster shield proc time, which whilst can be handy, suffers during to the inability to use it whilst stunned (which is why i also took stabilized armor).

 

In 8 man arenas, half the time i'm ignored, for the sole reason, i suspect, that they can heal through my dps, and when it looks like i'm making some headway, they can turn on me to take me out quick.

 

I make use of the stuns, to buy time, and at times, this does let my team pursue the objective, whilst i 'tie up' 3-4 opponents busy killing me, but this dosnt take very long typically, and leave me wishing that i'd listened to my mother when she urged me to test my force sensitivity at the Sith Academy.

 

The ticks of pre 3.0 don't seem to hold, so i need ideas to get my kills in the 10-12 range again - and actually contribute to my team. What am i missing?

 

Cheers,

 

Thermisticles

 

P.S. I refuse to believe that Bioware, or EA deliberately sought to ruin the gaming experience of any class, including the Merc - that just wouldn't make sense. I must be playing it wrong somehow - ideas?

[Coloneli]

Merc is weakest class in arena all i have to say

[Thermisticles]

Not true. : (

 

That's a lie!

 

Take it back!

 

Or i'll, i'll, get my sin buddy to kill you!

[Coloneli]

Not true. : (

 

That's a lie!

 

Take it back!

 

Or i'll, i'll, get my sin buddy to kill you!

 

This in a nutshell http://sv.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=lfqeo&s=8#.VKz0yCuG_oz

[alexsamma]

I have tried kiting, but it very little impact. Its usually a Jugg that will leap to me, or a operative/assassin strike from behind. Either way, they are in my face, and not going anywhere. The 'barrel roll/leap/sprint benefit of these classes negates kiting quite nicely, even when knocked back. The best I've been able to achieve is lOS (which now is a weaker mechanic in 3.0)

 

I took 'stabilized armor' for additional survivability, but frankly, the extra few seconds it buys me is a dubious benefit at best - yet to change it though.

 

Electronet doesn't seem as effective these days either - honestly found it most effective against Juggs, they seem surprised most often than not, not knowing how to respond. Assassins and Operatives are only caught if they don't have their cool-downs (obviously).

 

I used to be able to cast and run, but ditched that (since every class is more mobile than mine, didn't seem to be must point in trying to increase movement at all). Instead, i opted for a faster shield proc time, which whilst can be handy, suffers during to the inability to use it whilst stunned (which is why i also took stabilized armor).

 

In 8 man arenas, half the time i'm ignored, for the sole reason, i suspect, that they can heal through my dps, and when it looks like i'm making some headway, they can turn on me to take me out quick.

 

I make use of the stuns, to buy time, and at times, this does let my team pursue the objective, whilst i 'tie up' 3-4 opponents busy killing me, but this dosnt take very long typically, and leave me wishing that i'd listened to my mother when she urged me to test my force sensitivity at the Sith Academy.

 

The ticks of pre 3.0 don't seem to hold, so i need ideas to get my kills in the 10-12 range again - and actually contribute to my team. What am i missing?

 

Cheers,

 

Thermisticles

 

P.S. I refuse to believe that Bioware, or EA deliberately sought to ruin the gaming experience of any class, including the Merc - that just wouldn't make sense. I must be playing it wrong somehow - ideas?

 

I don't play merc/mando often, but when I do I find that the burst makes it very easy to kill people (esp. if they let me free cast, not that that happens often).

 

What spec are you playing, burst is actually one of the strong assets that mercs/mandos have, you should not have an issue killing people if you are free casting.

Edited January 7, 2015 by alexsamma

[AlrikFassbauer]

Go into PvE. There you can still have your share of fun. Edited January 7, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[foxmob]

I have tried kiting, but it very little impact. Its usually a Jugg that will leap to me, or a operative/assassin strike from behind. Either way, they are in my face, and not going anywhere. The 'barrel roll/leap/sprint benefit of these classes negates kiting quite nicely, even when knocked back. The best I've been able to achieve is lOS (which now is a weaker mechanic in 3.0)

a single jugg is not difficult at all to kite. the difference between him and a mara is actually pretty small in terms of kiting. killing, on the other hand, is considerably more difficult because of ED vs. UDR. for middle tree juggs, you just have to eat about 3/4ths of a ravage before you punt/stun/mezz. after that you can run out (if he pushes you or closes with a leap) via HO. the better maras and juggs will choke you when they see HO, but when the choke wears off, so does any CC immunity they have.

 

I play mostly the old pyro spec...now called something or other ordinance. if played well, you shouldn't have to hard cast anything while kiting (other than a heal when you get los). and the burst is for real.

 

I took 'stabilized armor' for additional survivability, but frankly, the extra few seconds it buys me is a dubious benefit at best - yet to change it though.

imo, you must be able to execute abils on the run for kiting (dur), so I'd go with the unload while running heroic and then the 30% DR while stunned and aoe. the aoe reduction is meh (I guess unless you're kiting a rage jugg/mara), but the DR while stunned is essential cuz you're going to be stunned...a lot. and you need to survive that first stun w/o a breaker.

 

Electronet doesn't seem as effective these days either - honestly found it most effective against Juggs, they seem surprised most often than not, not knowing how to respond. Assassins and Operatives are only caught if they don't have their cool-downs (obviously).

no. it's not as effective as it once was. but it never worked against unstoppable anyway. and that's where I really notice not having it. sins and ops are easily caught in the net. they just break it. a sin can break it with almost no repercussions because they can pop their version of saber ward that makes them immune to stuns for 12s. it's complete horsesheeit. but losing their breaker is of little consequence to them against most melee and mercs. if you do find yourself in that situation, they can still be knocked back, rooted, and (I think) snared, so use the root on rocket punch. don't try to mezz/stun. i also think you can net them with shield up and it will snare them.

 

I used to be able to cast and run, but ditched that (since every class is more mobile than mine, didn't seem to be must point in trying to increase movement at all). Instead, i opted for a faster shield proc time, which whilst can be handy, suffers during to the inability to use it whilst stunned (which is why i also took stabilized armor).

mobility is probably the greatest advantage of mercs. HO is awesome and on a relatively short cd. that said, most melee can sprint, roll, purge, or pop immunities to catch up to you. and you only have one true counter to that: enet. that's why I say you can only really kite 1 player. if you hit net at the right time, you can prevent the op from rolling or jugg from leaping or PT from popping HO. the other kiting utilities are more specific, but still very useful. no other ranged can burst on the move. they either rely on dots or have to hard cast.

 

In 8 man arenas, half the time i'm ignored, for the sole reason, i suspect, that they can heal through my dps, and when it looks like i'm making some headway, they can turn on me to take me out quick.

no one can face tank a merc. they're getting healed from another source or they're guarded. however, sorc and op healers can pretty easily survive one merc...but they have to move a lot and use all of their cds, so if they aren't dying, it's cuz your team has horrible focus. a free casting merc doesn't need much help, and the only help he needs is b/c of los.

 

I make use of the stuns, to buy time, and at times, this does let my team pursue the objective, whilst i 'tie up' 3-4 opponents busy killing me, but this dosnt take very long typically, and leave me wishing that i'd listened to my mother when she urged me to test my force sensitivity at the Sith Academy.

it's not easy, and there's little room for error. that's the biggest difference between merc and sorc. sorcs have a lot more room for error that they can recover from. a miscalculation on a merc is going to make you feel very very stupid. like...zero dmg for the rnd kind of stupid. and sometimes you're just facing better players or unfavorable comps. you need teammates to support you. every time I see a certain few shadows/sins, I know exactly what they're gonna do, and I warn my jugg to awe them asap or my sorc to rescue asap. sometimes they do. other times they don't. there really isn't much you can do in certain situations. you do need teammates who recognize your class strengths and weaknesses. but that's the price of yolos as opposed to grp.

 

The ticks of pre 3.0 don't seem to hold, so i need ideas to get my kills in the 10-12 range again - and actually contribute to my team. What am i missing?

not sure what you mean by ticks. but both dps specs for mercs are pretty brutal in terms of burst and sustained, really. stuff comes off cd very quickly. the main issue is that there's no answer to focus fire and the healing (even self healing) is a complete joke (i.e., you have to burn gcds on heals that are less effective that other classes who receive passive healing, and even your cast heals are on long [13s] cds).

 

edit: also remember to cleanse yourself. I think there's a utility in the middle tier that makes cleanse a 30% DR on dots for like 12s. I think that's worth it given all of the dots flying around from sorcs and sins.

 

pop chaff flares and laugh at snipers.

 

pop everything when AP PTs start firing rockets at you. (usually go chaff > shield > kolto, but if you can CC and get away instead, do that).

Edited January 7, 2015 by foxmob

[ForceWelder]

My focus in PVP currently is Commando / BH.

 

To the OP, I know where you are coming from as do a number of people who play these classes. They excell in PVE, but their survivability is extremely limited in PVP situations.

 

In 4 vs 4 arena matches, I am almost always the first to be focused on. Odds are the healer just can't keep me alive to survive the focus burst and I'm dead before I could so much as get a shot off. Thre have been matches where I have used every defensive cooldown in my arsenal and at most I survive 10 - 15 seconds. I'm so busy trying to save my $%# that I never even get one shot off in retaliation and my team mates are looking at me like ***.

 

We have no escapes, our bubble only mitigates a precentage of the damage, and we lack the ability to purge the DOTs from the overwhelming force user sided matches in PVP.

 

Honestly, there is no "fix". The class is what it is. I have come to terms with the understanding I am playing a PVE class in a PVP environment.

[Floplag]

My main is also a Merc, though i have found myself leaving him on the shelf in favor of my PT for any "serious" PVP.

 

In order to be viable in ranked, or even 4 man regs, we need help. we are focused even before healers much of the time as 1-2 intelligent stealth can burst us down before we can do much.

 

It would really be so very easy to fix them though. I personally do not understand why they are being ignored, at all. All that it would requires is a few simple tweaks to existing skills to make them useful and maybe one new one, an "oh crap" skill of some kinds that every other class has to make them at least think about shifting targets.

 

I feel the frustration, and its wholly justified.

[Thermisticles]

Some interesting replies,

 

Thanks one and all. I currently play arsenal spec. Today i played 2 very interesting and different Voidstar games. In one, I was guarded by a Jugg and healed. We won that match and i topped dps. I was covered by my team mates and didn't die once. In the other, I had no guard, and 1 healer. That, we lost,, and i had 13 deaths. You can look at this 2 ways. 1, that the team needs to 'carry' the merc to get any use out of him, 2 That the group needs to work as a team to win.

 

Either way, this is terrible for the Merc.

 

The reality is that most matches aren't premades, and nor should they, imo. Each class should be able to pull their own weight in pvp, without having to rely on others to forfill their function.

 

Issues concerning the Merc

 

Mercs continue to be the most immobile class in the game (relative to all other classes).

 

Not enough Burst damage. I came to this conclusion just recently. Healers can render my dps to 'fluff' status. This is a direct consequence of insufficient burst damage - my higest cri, has been 14k , and this has only occurred twice since 3.0. Channeling dps i.e. blazing bolts, is a waste of time, if the have a good healer topping up or if they are guarded.

 

Our DPS should, by far, outstrip the dps of other classes if we are not to have any 'hard' defences. It shouldn't be a contest - 2 blasters or lightsabers should double the damage - make it rude, especially since you're being focused anyways - or maintain current dps and provide a 'hard' defence (not simply percentage mitigation)

 

This price for all this OP dps you ask? I died 13 times - a price I'm paying anyway.

 

I refuse to PVE with this class. It's just as boring.

 

My current plan is to max out the class in 176 gear (almost there - 4 pieces to go) - fully augmented - and if it still doesn't perform, ill retire him and roll a sin for the win : D

 

Previous strategies discussed have been used, but against 2 sages and a dps vanguard,... hmmm, strange how they ignored everyone else and went for me,..consistently. Need a hard defence, pure and simple, or enough dps to shred a tank and pierce sorc bubbles etc.

 

Today was my 'Disenfranchised' day i suspect

 

Nerd rage rant concluded

Edited January 8, 2015 by Thermisticles

[AlrikFassbauer]

I refuse to PVE with this class. It's just as boring.

 

This is a point I don't quite understand, I'm sorry.

What is so boring regarding PvE with this class ?

Edited January 8, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Theodulus]

best advice for merc is to hang back. keep your teammates between yourself and your opponents.

I don't know which server you play on but there is no hanging out in the back where I play. People are going to have me targeted before I jump out of the gates. Stealthers are going to sneak past my team mates to single me out. Leapers are going to truck right through my team and leap to me. Maybe I should roll on a RP or PVE server so I also can hang out in the back?

[Thermisticles]

This is a point I don't quite understand, I'm sorry.

What is so boring regarding PvE with this class ?

 

 

Its so predictable,..pvp is very dynamic, pve,..i'll do it for story (and often not even that),..high level,..its just,..lacking.

[Evanouss]

What if they gave merc/mando massively reduced cd on electro net?

[doctor_]

What if they gave merc/mando massively reduced cd on electro net?

 

We dont need that, We need buff to our defence and HO

[TezMoney]

Not enough Burst damage. I came to this conclusion just recently. Healers can render my dps to 'fluff' status. This is a direct consequence of insufficient burst damage - my higest cri, has been 14k , and this has only occurred twice since 3.0.

 

That's a pretty low crit, I've seen most Mercs in 15-17k range. How much surge and crit do you run?

How often is you Advanced Targeting staying up? Not sure? Then download Star Parse, it has a neat function that tells you how often you procs are staying up.

[teclado]

What if they gave merc/mando massively reduced cd on electro net?

My sentinel is crying. :'(

[foxmob]

I don't know which server you play on but there is no hanging out in the back where I play. People are going to have me targeted before I jump out of the gates. Stealthers are going to sneak past my team mates to single me out. Leapers are going to truck right through my team and leap to me. Maybe I should roll on a RP or PVE server so I also can hang out in the back?

 

stealth are going to be trouble. and mercs are at a serious disadvantage compared to most classes in the solo queue. but for you to say "there is no hanging out in the back where I play" tells me this: "there really is no hanging back the way I play." because it is possible to hang back. sorcs are BS. sorcs can afford to be aggressive. snipers and mercs cannot. we can only be as aggressive as our teammates allow us to be. and yeah, it sucks big time, cuz we lack the self sufficiency of so many other classes. but you should only be getting global'd by stealth. if you see them coming, you do have some recourse.

[Saikochoro]

Some are a maps give you a better chance. There is no denying that mercs are worse off than sorcs or snipers even. But some of the same survivability principles apply. I agree with what fox on said. I'd save a charge of power surge (insta cast proc) for concussion missile (you get two charges if you're arsenal). Concussion charge should be insta cast anyway IMO. If the map is right I would stay on the top of something so I can knock melee off me and below. You'd be able to get some damage in as they try to come back up. Net is always good, but not enough. You need to do your best to kite. Problem is mercs are just the easiest focus fire target right now in ranked. Mercs need some sort of anti focus button. Not an I win button...just an anti focus button.

[Theodulus]

stealth are going to be trouble.

Indeed. But buffing stealth scan to cover a wider area and adding a root as baseline ability would help merc survivability against stealth.

but for you to say "there is no hanging out in the back where I play" tells me this: "there really is no hanging back the way I play." because it is possible to hang back. sorcs are BS. sorcs can afford to be aggressive. snipers and mercs cannot. we can only be as aggressive as our teammates allow us to be. and yeah, it sucks big time, cuz we lack the self sufficiency of so many other classes. but you should only be getting global'd by stealth. if you see them coming, you do have some recourse.

Unless I get stealth as an ability on my merc or use teleportation there is no way I can hang out in the back. If my team goes aggressive mode I can hang out in the back but that assassin and leaper is already on his way to own me. I can hang out in the back for around 4 seconds. I can prepare and pop kolto overload, shield, adrenal and pick every defensive utility there is but against 3 to 4 dps I'm going to be dead before the resolve bar is full. On my healer merc I can survive longer but being globaled is still a real threat.

 

The amount of work you have to put in on healer merc in solo arena just doesn't reward you. I should just get off my *** and get that sorc to 60 because according to streams I can keyboard turn, be a clicker and facetank everyone and still do better than the opposing healer merc and op.