I hate the chancellor

[wolfshadowhunter]

She slightly reminds me of Chancellor Palpatine in the way in which it seem she'll do what will get her more power or hold on to her power.

However good for Satele standing up for what was right against her and the end of Shadows of Revan ( Republic side ). I wish Mace had done this with Palpatine and the republic senate but no he just gave them what they wanted all the time including kicking poor Ahsoka out of the order.

[Ghisallo]

[quote=Darth_Wicked;8047500 /snip

Fin.

 

Wow a defensiveness there and a misunderstanding of "for all intents and purposes."

 

Another way to put it is "for practical purposes" and for that purpose the emperor was dead... he could do nothing... he could not even blink.

 

I already said what Satele did was straight UP going rogue... in another thread I believe. Imagine during the 2nd Gulf war... Iran fires on coalition troops. Without checking with any of the presidents or Prime Ministers of the Coalition Nations the theater Commander simply invades Iran in response. In real Historical context imagine in the Korean War McArthur NOT checking with Truman and just attacking China after the North Koreans fled into their territory. This is what Satele did. No "for all intents and purposes" about it.

 

So no... you don't understand the term. Give it up.

 

In the end you misunderstand history, misunderstand the success of Jingoism in historical terms and misunderstand how Politics work, especially in wartime. It's all good though... it's just a video game, a fantasy, and if this is your fantasy, have at it, regardless of the lack of a logical foundation because a fantasy doesn't need a logical foundation.

 

Sorry if I sound harsh but your complete avoidance of the realities (as "real" as things can be in a fictional world) of the situation is frustrating to say the least.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

She slightly reminds me of Chancellor Palpatine in the way in which it seem she'll do what will get her more power or hold on to her power.

However good for Satele standing up for what was right against her and the end of Shadows of Revan ( Republic side ). I wish Mace had done this with Palpatine and the republic senate but no he just gave them what they wanted all the time including kicking poor Ahsoka out of the order.

 

She doesn't want power that is the problem and what people miss. She wants the utter destruction of the Empire... period... everything she does is in light of that singular goal (unless something else is revealed later).

[Excise]

Everybody in the Republic thought the Emperor was dead. Malcolm and Satele were standing right next to Suresh during the announcement so it won't be entirely on her shoulders.

 

In any event, I'm not sure if the Emperor's return is even known to the general population. The troops on Yavin were only aware of rumours about Revan, let alone the Emperor. No telling whether the Emperor's voice over at the end was heard by a lot of people or just the heroes assembled, too.

 

That said, since the Classic story line the Pubbies seem to be losing their big advantage.

[Kjetil]

I don't think about her much, but it is impressive that she advanced her political power exponentially in a short amount of time. With the uneasy truce subsiding and the war back on, she campaigned for revenge instead of promising peace like her competitors. Republic worlds were falling and the people wanted a fight against the Empire. Saresh was the leader that promised to take them down.

 

Say what you want about her, but being where she's at given her actions seems logical.

 

Funny how this reminds of another politician who did something similar after another war, in another universe, he ended up being one of the most unpopular people in history.

[Darth_Wicked]

* snip *

 

You don't sound harsh, but rather clueless truth be told.

 

Instead of addressing what I said earlier, you insist on this idea of bringing up real-life examples, poorly contextualized.

 

NOT only that, but you have pretty much FAILED to bring up any material from the game itself, as a counter-argument. On the contrary, as also seen earlier, you went for the lazy RP / fan-fiction approach, which was laughable.

 

Ergo, for all intents and purposes, this is where you wanna go.

 

On my part, I'll stick to what the game shows, and retrieve stuff from it accordingly in order to cement my claims, something you are apparently incapable of doing.

 

My sentiments.

 

Everybody in the Republic thought the Emperor was dead. Malcolm and Satele were standing right next to Suresh during the announcement so it won't be entirely on her shoulders.

 

Issue being,

, Saresh would be unwilling from the start to establish any truce or alliance, even if for the greater good. In other words, regardless of the motive, she'd have no intention to make amends for her mistake.

 

Such was not the case with Satele. Plus, as seen

, the Supreme Commander also agreed with her.

 

That said, since the Classic story line the Pubbies seem to be losing their big advantage.

 

Saresh's hatred for the Empire, justified or not, sooner or later, will become a liability for the Republic. In my book, if the earlier State of the Galaxy blog entry is any indication, she comes across as an ineffectual fool.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Ghisallo]

You don't sound harsh, but rather clueless truth be told.

 

Instead of addressing what I said earlier, you insist on this idea of bringing up real-life examples, poorly contextualized.

 

NOT only that, but you have pretty much FAILED to bring up any material from the game itself, as a counter-argument. On the contrary, as also seen earlier, you went for the lazy RP / fan-fiction approach, which was laughable.

 

Ergo, for all intents and purposes, this is where you wanna go.

 

On my part, I'll stick to what the game shows, and retrieve stuff from it accordingly in order to cement my claims, something you are apparently incapable of doing.

 

My sentiments.

 

 

 

Issue being,

, Saresh would be unwilling from the start to establish any truce or alliance, even if for the greater good. In other words, regardless of the motive, she'd have no intention to make amends for her mistake.

 

Such was not the case with Satele. Plus, as seen

, the Supreme Commander also agreed with her.

 

 

 

Saresh's hatred for the Empire, justified or not, sooner or later, will become a liability for the Republic. In my book, if the earlier State of the Galaxy blog entry is any indication, she comes across as an ineffectual fool.

 

I find it humorous that you refer to me as clueless when the entire basis of your argument revolves around semantics (and even then you completely ignore or misinterpret what "for all intents and purposes:" means in my statements) and then for the rest essentially saying "no no no... why? because I said so" in a giant wall of text.

 

I didn't go for the "fan fiction approach" anymore than you did and it was in direct response to your theories. You first assumed the whole Galaxy was going to find out the Emperor returned. This is far from certain. It is more than possible that the only people who heard his voice were the characters in the cut scene. Everyone else involved would have just seen the light show. It is in Both Satele and Marr's interests to keep the Emperor's return "quiet" and NOT for political reasons but simply to maintain stability and order.

 

Even if it comes out... you claim that it would lead to the fall of the Chancellor. I simply claim that it could instead be turned to her advantage. Do we do so in a different style? Yes... you just give the plot outline, I provide a little vignette. If speculation is fan fiction then were are both guilty of it.

 

Your entire basis that Saresh is a fool is based on this (in large part.

 

they appear to be untenable in the long term. The Republic’s production capacities (particularly foodstuffs, energy, and war materiel) are already nearing their maximum capacity.

 

Thing is you ignore...

Supreme Chancellor Saresh continues to enjoy popular support in both the Senate and the public, and shows no sign of abandoning the aggressive policies that brought her to office...Despite the popularity of Saresh’s strategies, they appear to be untenable in the long term

 

This then specifically says she is very popular and whether it is because the people do not know the Republic's strategies APPEAR to be untenable in the long run, or because they feel that thus far being successful she will pull something out of her hat, the people trust her and cheer for her. I am not saying that things won't turn around but since the "state of the galaxy" report shows that she still clearly enjoys popular support there needs to be something to errode that support. The emperor's return will simply NOT be a "one shot" to that support because it is so easily spinnable into a motivating factor. It will take dramatic defeats to turn it around on her. May those defeats happen? yes... I don't think anyone denies that. The thing is THIS is not the dramatic defeat. It may be the first step in that chain of events BUT that is only the case if it gets out. I did more than a little work on these very topics when I was a History/Polic Sci double major in University. Yes it was many moons ago and I chose a different career path, but since my father is a retired academic on these very issues I keep my "feet wet" so to speak since he still acts like the college professor and poses questions for me to analyze when we are enjoying lunch or a drink together. It's one of the games we have played for over 20 years now.

 

As for the Supreme Commander agreeing with Satele... yes he did. technically he would be as guilty of out right disobedience as Satele was. Simply because malcolm agrees doesn't make it "all right." The Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff can't say "okay Attack"...that is the president's job. Rightly Malcolm should be going before a Courts Martial. The Republic is an elected Gov't. The MIlitary is answerable to the Senate and the Chancellor by law and the Jedi order has self-declared such loyalty. As such they both technically violated just about every rule possible in what occurred in the expac.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Beniboybling]

If the GenoHaradan was to be brought to the fold in a more meaningful fashion, they would still retain their secretive status.

I don't follow how this is "obvious" at all.

Comes SoR, and what happens in her watch?

 

The Grand Master of the Jedi Order establishes a truce or alliance with a Dark Council member, to prevent Revan from reawakening / resurrecting the Sith Emperor -- the same Emperor she claimed was dead, as part of an announcement to cover up what she considered to be a debacle, namely the Makeb crisis.

 

With all that said and done, what are her options exactly?

 

If she feigns ignorance after being informed of what happened, she's a weak leader, seeing her underlings and / or allies do their thing behind her back; if she doesn't feign ignorance and pretends to have known all along, then she has to admit she committed a GRIEVOUS ERROR, when she stated the Emperor was dead when it wasn't.

 

In addition to that, the truth about Makeb would probably come to the spotlight, not to mention its covering up.

 

Bleak picture.

I don't see how this is anything other than bleak for Satele & co.

 

For one it was her and her people who informed Chancellor Saresh that the Sith Emperor was dead, Saresh chose to believe them, they were wrong, the blame lies with them, not with Saresh. To make matters worse Satele & co. as you said went temporarily rogue and allied with the Sith, without consulting with the Chancellor or the Senate.

 

I'm pretty sure that's a violation of some conduct or what have you.

 

This all amounts to the Satele & co. losing a lot of respect and faith, with them inaccurately reporting the Emperor's death, and then allying with the enemy to attempt to cover up the mistake behind the Republic's back.

 

Nonetheless the galaxy at large doesn't need to know about this, and Saresh will not doubt happily keep it a secret, but she won't trust Satele & co. anymore, and she'll might even attempt to marginalize their power.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Darkelefantos]

For one it was her and her people who informed Chancellor Saresh that the Sith Emperor was dead, Saresh chose to believe them, they were wrong, the blame lies with them, not with Saresh. To make matters worse Satele & co. as you said went temporarily rogue and allied with the Sith, without consulting with the Chancellor or the Senate.

 

I'm pretty sure that's a violation of some conduct or what have you.

 

This all amounts to the Satele & co. losing a lot of respect and faith, with them inaccurately reporting the Emperor's death, and then allying with the enemy to attempt to cover up the mistake behind the Republic's back.

This sounds like you're setting up for Order 66.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Darkelefantos

[Darth_Wicked]

I don't follow how this is "obvious" at all.

 

How would it serve the GenoHaradan to come out in the open exactly?

 

I don't see how this is anything other than bleak for Satele & co.

 

For one it was her and her people who informed Chancellor Saresh that the Sith Emperor was dead, Saresh chose to believe them, they were wrong, the blame lies with them, not with Saresh. To make matters worse Satele & co. as you said went temporarily rogue and allied with the Sith, without consulting with the Chancellor or the Senate.

 

Last I checked, the Supreme Chancellor is called Leontyne Saresh, not Satele Shan. Hence, it fell to the former to make the decision to announce to the galaxy at large that the Sith Emperor was dead.

 

Not only was she in error when she decided to make that announcement, but said announcement was made in order to deflect attention from the debacle Makeb turned out to be.

 

I'm pretty sure that's a violation of some conduct or what have you.

 

Read what I said earlier, plus what I reiterated above.

 

This all amounts to the Satele & co. losing a lot of respect and faith, with them inaccurately reporting the Emperor's death, and then allying with the enemy to attempt to cover up the mistake behind the Republic's back.

 

Relaying to the Supreme Chancellor, privately, that the Sith Emperor is presumably dead is surely not the same as instigating said Chancellor to announce it to the galaxy at large.

 

Ergo, different things.

 

Nonetheless the galaxy at large doesn't need to know about this, and Saresh will not doubt happily keep it a secret, but she won't trust Satele & co. anymore, and she'll might even attempt to marginalize their power.

 

That's not point, but then again, one would expect you'd try to deflect the bigger issue.

 

The point is that Saresh comes across as an ineffectual fool, as stated previously. The debacle pertaining Makeb, plus the erroneous announcement of the death of the Sith Emperor to cover it up, is merely the tip of the iceberg.

 

The possibility she would be unwilling to compromise her fanatical views is what is most troublesome, especially in light of Darth Marr, a DC member no less, acquiescing to a truce. Speaks volumes about her.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Thepyrethatburns]

From a game perspective, taking the long way to setting Saresh up to take a dive is appropriate.

 

1) Good vs. evil: We expect the Dark Council to keep setting themselves up and be knocked down. With the Hutt Cartel, they are greedy and amoral which, for story purposes, is the same. When the leader of a good side has to be taken down, it's more of a twist. The effect of the twist is magnified if the ones taking her down are Havoc Squad or Jedi as opposed to an evil faction taking her out unless the evil faction has the blessing of representatives of the good side .

 

2) Subverting expectations: Because it's more of a twist, it can't be done as often. When we get a new expansion, we expect it to be taking evil out as opposed to finding out that the leader of the good side needs to be the one taken out. It is especially effective if the Chancellor is shown to be having good intentions and even qualities that the player agrees with but still is on the path of evil in the execution of her intentions. We've all seen Order 66 in play so recreating that would be too easy. Something like Bioshock 2 where I was set to kill Lamb for 1/2-2/3s of the game but, in the last third, it showed me some aspects of her plan and personal qualities which I found hard to dismiss as coming from anywhere but a sincere heart.

 

3) Expansion potential: I've mentioned that, despite screwing the pooch on the last Shroud mission, it does appear that Bioware would like to use the Shroud again. Taking out an information broker/spy/power player like the Shroud would be a perfect lead-in to an expansion to knock Saresh off the throne. Example: In the last cutscene, you're sifting through the fallen Shroud's files while talking to a higher-up (Satele, Malcom, maybe even Saresh herself) when you find something that visibly disturbs you. They ask if everything is wrapped up and you hesitate then say "All clear" while noticeably palming something. (WIth the Sith, it could be something along the lines of a slow smile and a comment "I think we just found the weapon to bring the Republic to it's knees" while palming it.)

 

Then you have a couple mini expansions like Section X/Black Hole where the reasoning doesn't always make immediate sense to the player as to why we're doing this. Example: The Trooper has decided to check out a warehouse for some reason but won't confide the full reason to their confidants. Maybe we come across an unknown faction of guards that have odd things like Isotope-5 powered weaponry or Revanite artifacts that were supposed to be secured just to throw in uncertainty as to who this faction is. End it with a couple flashpoints which leads to the expansion: Let's take Saresh out....together.

 

4) Game universe shake-up. Finally, it has more potential for a game-universe shake-up. The Sith themselves admit that they're doing evil so, when they get taken out by the forces of good or evil, the average Empire citizen is likely to just shrug and say "whatever". The average Republic citizen believes that their government is, while there are very few instances of corruption, the government is, on the whole, good. Knocking the head of state off would lead to a lot of interesting story ideas concerning the loss of faith in the government.

 

It could even lead to potential changes for classes. When the Sith Emperor was beat, I was kinda wondering what the employment prospects were for my Sith "Emperor's Wrath" Warrior. (Her ending indicates that Darth Marr recognizes talent.) If Havoc Squad has to take down Saresh, then the new administration might run very differently with Havoc Squad concerning their place in the military. If the Jedi do so, that could lead to schism with the Senate. Not Order 66 but enough of a schism to give the Sith an opening and the Jedi an obstacle. The Smuggler might find that the Republic just got serious about bringing her if for questioning.

 

The Sith would be a little more straightforward. Given that Darth Marr is being set up as a more pragmatic leader of the council, this could lead to a storyline where the Empire is regaining a lot of ground with a few variations. The Agent is used to dig deep into republic agencies that are having a massive shakeup with the chain of command. The Mandos might be obstensibly on the side of the Empire but they might see opportunities to restore the glory days of Mandalore the Ultimate.

 

 

 

In the end, there is a LOT of potential here but, unlike Dark Council members or Hutt Cartel leaders, taking down Saresh is a trigger that can only be pulled once. Thus, if Bioware is doing a setup, it makes sense for it to be a long-term setup as opposed to a quick "You take down Saresh. Someone else steps in. Everyone shrugs and moves on."

[Beniboybling]

How would it serve the GenoHaradan to come out in the open exactly

That's not what I'm saying, I'm questioning how the GenoHaradan would "retain their secretive" status if "brought into the fold". That appears at cross purposes, as being brought into the fold would entail stepping out of the shadows.

 

Indeed the only reason they are not "in the fold" is because they have chosen to stay in the shadows.

Last I checked, the Supreme Chancellor is called Leontyne Saresh, not Satele Shan. Hence, it fell to the former to make the decision to announce to the galaxy at large that the Sith Emperor was dead.

 

Not only was she in error when she decided to make that announcement, but said announcement was made in order to deflect attention from the debacle Makeb turned out to be.

So Saresh should be held responsible for Satele & co.'s mistakes?

 

That's one political spin that could be put on it, but it's not the truth.

A Jedi strike team confronted the Emperor during a recent attack on Dromund Kaas. Now a joint SIS and Jedi committee has concluded that the galaxy's greatest villain is gone forever.

 

--Satele Shan, Rise of the Hutt Cartel

 

Unless you have a record of this "private conservation", these are the facts to my knowledge. The Jedi and the SIS told Saresh that the Emperor was dead, they made the decision, and so Saresh decided to announce their findings.

 

The committee however was wrong, a committee comprised of the Jedi Order and the SIS, not Saresh. The only way Saresh can be faulted is in the respect that she is responsible for the incompetency of her subordinates, but in the end it was Satele & co. that made the false assumption and "grievous error" that the Sith Emperor was dead.

 

Saresh is therefore more than capable of deflecting blame to them, as she can hardly be faulted for believing them. And there remains the issue of Satele & co. circumventing the system of govt. and allying with the Sith, which can definitely be held against them. Such a move will/would no doubt prove unpopular with the Senate and the people.

 

Personally I do believe Saresh is on her way out, but not because of negative public opinion or some kind of political scandal, but because the evident friction between herself and the military/Jedi, which will only continue to escalate.

[Ghisallo]

I don't follow how this is "obvious" at all.I don't see how this is anything other than bleak for Satele & co.

 

For one it was her and her people who informed Chancellor Saresh that the Sith Emperor was dead, Saresh chose to believe them, they were wrong, the blame lies with them, not with Saresh. To make matters worse Satele & co. as you said went temporarily rogue and allied with the Sith, without consulting with the Chancellor or the Senate.

 

I'm pretty sure that's a violation of some conduct or what have you.

 

This all amounts to the Satele & co. losing a lot of respect and faith, with them inaccurately reporting the Emperor's death, and then allying with the enemy to attempt to cover up the mistake behind the Republic's back.

 

Nonetheless the galaxy at large doesn't need to know about this, and Saresh will not doubt happily keep it a secret, but she won't trust Satele & co. anymore, and she'll might even attempt to marginalize their power.

 

Well he misses that if one goes down they ALL go down. That is what happens, using the unrealistic assumption that with her high popularity simply the Emperor's return derails her administration. Just look at what happens when PM's get no confidence votes in parliments irl (for whatever reason), the new PM comes in, cabinets get changed etc. They would all go down.

 

As I said though it is completely unrealistic because even the "report" he keeps hanging his hat on speaks of how popular she is not only with the people but the Senate as well. They tried black mail and a host of other things. They all failed due to a combination of Genoharadan interference and likely the loyalty of those around her. Just the Emperor being revealed to have returned would NOT be enough to cause a no confidence vote. The war is still going on and before his death they had victories. In the short term it would only serve as a rallying call. For that to change in the medium to long term they would need reversals on the battle field. Which again the report he uses says

appear to be untenable in the long term

... appear being the key word. Thus in the medium to long term maybe the reversals happen... maybe they don't. We'll see.

 

He also is very good at ignore inconvenient facts. He used earlier the alleged "debacle" of Makeb (ignoring the Hutts providing warships and cash in place of what she expected to get from Makeb) and ignores the fact that on the same planet things are bad enough for the Empire when we land that Marr says

The Empire is losing this war. Barring the unexpected or the miraculous our total defeat will occur within the year.

 

This is due NOT to any technological disadvantage or the sort but, according to Marr, the power plays among the Dark Council and the infighting among the Sith at large. It is completely in his interests to see the Emperor's return concealed. If people at large knew the emperor returned the infighting would pick up as they jokey for his favor. The Emperor practically encouraged the in-fighting because so long as the Dark Council and Sith are busy stabbing each other in the back the chances of a coup are reduced.

 

yes things improved after the Makeb mission but the underlying weakness of the Sith infighting still exists and Marr has every reason to conceal the fact of the Emperor's return. As for "he could never cover it up. More than once in this game we have times where we are found "surprised" by the true state of events. personally I have found most of the instances unrealistic when you consider the holonet and everything else BUT the precedent is there for Satele and Marr to cover it all up. Even if they don't see my first point.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Excise]

The Jedi seemed pretty confident that the Emperor was dead. It doesn't follow for me that they would only tell Suresh that he was presumed dead and Suresh made the leap in logic to think he was entirely dead.

 

Not saying it's impossible, but it seems less likely than the simpler explanation.

 

Anyhow, I agree that Suresh wouldn't have gone for the Yavin alliance. Satele's probably a pretty good judge of character. "Being willing to work with the enemy" is a pretty standard LS/DS choice in SWTOR, and Suresh seems like a soft DS to me.

[Beniboybling]

Well he misses that if one goes down they ALL go down. That is what happens, using the unrealistic assumption that with her high popularity simply the Emperor's return derails her administration. Just look at what happens when PM's get no confidence votes in parliments irl (for whatever reason), the new PM comes in, cabinets get changed etc. They would all go down.

 

As I said though it is completely unrealistic because even the "report" he keeps hanging his hat on speaks of how popular she is not only with the people but the Senate as well. They tried black mail and a host of other things. They all failed due to a combination of Genoharadan interference and likely the loyalty of those around her. Just the Emperor being revealed to have returned would NOT be enough to cause a no confidence vote. The war is still going on and before his death they had victories. In the short term it would only serve as a rallying call. For that to change in the medium to long term they would need reversals on the battle field. Which again the report he uses says ... appear being the key word. Thus in the medium to long term maybe the reversals happen... maybe they don't. We'll see.

 

He also is very good at ignore inconvenient facts. He used earlier the alleged "debacle" of Makeb (ignoring the Hutts providing warships and cash in place of what she expected to get from Makeb) and ignores the fact that on the same planet things are bad enough for the Empire when we land that Marr says

 

This is due NOT to any technological disadvantage or the sort but, according to Marr, the power plays among the Dark Council and the infighting among the Sith at large. It is completely in his interests to see the Emperor's return concealed. If people at large knew the emperor returned the infighting would pick up as they jokey for his favor. The Emperor practically encouraged the in-fighting because so long as the Dark Council and Sith are busy stabbing each other in the back the chances of a coup are reduced.

 

yes things improved after the Makeb mission but the underlying weakness of the Sith infighting still exists and Marr has every reason to conceal the fact of the Emperor's return. As for "he could never cover it up. More than once in this game we have times where we are found "surprised" by the true state of events. personally I have found most of the instances unrealistic when you consider the holonet and everything else BUT the precedent is there for Satele and Marr to cover it all up. Even if they don't see my first point.

Well in the end the voting of a new chancellor isn't going to kill the Emperor, one could feasibly hold Saresh to blame for falsely reporting the Emperor's death, but hold her to blame for the Emperor's revival? Hardly, and the former seems insignificant in light of the latter "the Emperor is alive, lets deal with it" is all she'd needs to say.

 

Personally I'm not sure what the whole Makeb debacle is, as we referring to the Empire takeover? Is that not a secret from the Republic? Or the fact they failed to secure Isotope 5? As far as I'm aware they lost nothing, put a stop to the Hutts, and gained the support of the Cartel, I think that can easily be chalked up as a win.

 

If anything, the announcement of the Emperor's death was the cherry on top, not some kind of distraction.

 

Personally I feel increasing tensions of lack of faith/respect etc. between herself the Republic Military and the Jedi Order will be her downfall. I expect that her affiliation with the Genoharadan will be brought to light and Satele & co. will be more than happy to pursue it as a means of removing her and her ineffective strategies from power.

[Ghisallo]

The Jedi seemed pretty confident that the Emperor was dead. It doesn't follow for me that they would only tell Suresh that he was presumed dead and Suresh made the leap in logic to think he was entirely dead.

 

Not saying it's impossible, but it seems less likely than the simpler explanation.

 

Anyhow, I agree that Suresh wouldn't have gone for the Yavin alliance. Satele's probably a pretty good judge of character. "Being willing to work with the enemy" is a pretty standard LS/DS choice in SWTOR, and Suresh seems like a soft DS to me.

 

It goes beyond that actually. At the end of the JK story Satele herself says that you Killed the Emperor. Before the Rise of the Hutt Cartel the lead Story dev even said the Emperor was indeed killed in an interview. The fact he is alive now is a retcon. If you step away from the story and go "meta" the chances of the devs having the Emperor's return having political impact are pretty slim to none. Chances are, since he wants to eat the galaxy, he will become a bogeyman for both sides and it will be a "shadow" war of sorts.

[Leaveshill]

La la

 

 

 

Tbh it's very, very unlikely that they intended for the Emperor to die there. Going to go on about it now.

It's a reason Scourge says "He's weakened, but he's not gone" or something after you "kill" him", if you choose to do that. And it's a fact that it was the voice. I'm pretty sure that this mail has been in game since launch.

Had to head to youtube to find it, just fast forward to the middle

"Wrath, we have an important matter to dicuss. It is time you knew the secret of the Emperor's absence. While you silenced Darth Baras, the Jedi attempted the impossible feat of destroying the Emperor. Instead, they merely defeated the Emperor's true voice."

 

 

 

So well, it was always the plan that the Emperor was to return. And seeing as he wanted to devour all life from the start, I cannot see why they didn't think of him as a "final boss".

I'm sure this random dev said something "stupid" due to his lack of understanding of his own game, which well, happends if he's a computer-expert and not a lore expert, but that doesn't make it true. Unless someone can prove to me that this mail was brand new in march 2013, which I doubt, then yes, Bioware intended for the Emperor to return. And yes, it was only his voice that died. This is of course logical due to the fact that he has used various voices for a long time, and he has absolutely no reason whatsoever to use his "real" form at the moment.

 

 

 

Not to mention that the Revan book was released like, a month before SWTOR, and I'm 99% sure that they're also describing the redskin of the Emperor in that book, which is clearly made "in cooperation" between Bioware and the author. If not, then it'd not be released at that exact time.

 

 

And.

 

"Blood of the Empire also saw the first visual depiction of the Sith Emperor,[2] though some confusion arose from his appearance as a Human despite Drew Karpyshyn's statement that the Emperor was biologically a Sith Pureblood.[6] This contradiction was later resolved with the introduction of the Emperor's Voice, the host body that the Emperor possessed to preserve his true form" (Ik that this is just from the SWTOR: blood of the empire's wiki, but it's still correct.

 

 

While I agree that Saresh can't be held responsible for her minion's mistakes or at least shouldn't, one never knows. Anyways, it's still a fact that the Emperor was always intended to be a pureblood, and it was never intended for the Emperor to die like it appears. Satele says so because she doesn't know better, she doesn't know the Emperor, she doesn't know how about his power nor the dark side in general. She has no clue about what she's speaking about and assumes that the Emperor is just some "a bit over the top maniac"; while in reality he is "the maniac", at least for his era. That some developer with little to no knowledge about his own story says so doesn't change this, as a number of in-game content proves him wrong.

[Darth_Wicked]

That's not what I'm saying, I'm questioning how the GenoHaradan would "retain their secretive" status if "brought into the fold". That appears at cross purposes, as being brought into the fold would entail stepping out of the shadows.

 

Indeed the only reason they are not "in the fold" is because they have chosen to stay in the shadows.

 

Not really.

 

So Saresh should be held responsible for Satele & co.'s mistakes?

 

Reading attentively usually helps.

Relaying to the Supreme Chancellor, privately, that the Sith Emperor is presumably dead is surely not the same as instigating said Chancellor to announce it to the galaxy at large.

 

Ergo, different things.

^^ You are trying to sidestep the above.

 

Unless you have a record of this "private conservation", these are the facts to my knowledge.

 

Again, you are attempting to sidestep the issue.

 

As far as I can guess, it was surely not Satele who chose to move forward with the announcement that the Sith Emperor was dead, in order to cover up for the debacle that Makeb turned out to be.

 

That would be Saresh for sure.

 

If you have indisputable evidence showing otherwise, please share.

 

The Jedi and the SIS told Saresh that the Emperor was dead, they made the decision, and so Saresh decided to announce their findings.

 

You keep insisting she did so out of kindness or as a rally cry, when in fact she did so, as mentioned over and over again, to deflect attention from the Makeb crisis.

 

The committee however was wrong, a committee comprised of the Jedi Order and the SIS, not Saresh.

 

You are trying way too hard. The difference is that:

 

 

• Neither the Jedi nor the SiS were trying to compensate for something, namely the Makeb decable.

 

• Steps were taken, namely at Rishi and Yavin 4, to amend said blemish. Hence the truce and subsequent alliance.

 

^^ This has been mentioned by me earlier already. You seem to have ignored it altogether though.

 

The only way Saresh can be faulted is in the respect that she is responsible for the incompetency of her subordinates, but in the end it was Satele & co. that made the false assumption and "grievous error" that the Sith Emperor was dead.

 

You may try to discard it altogether, but again, it won't work.

 

Fact remains she went ahead with the announcement to cover up for what was, in her own words, a true debacle all along for the Galactic Republic.

 

Saresh is therefore more than capable of deflecting blame to them, as she can hardly be faulted for believing them.

 

Issue being, as stated several times, the military, the Jedi and the SiS, tried to make amends for their blemish. Saresh, on the other hand, would apparently allow the Republic to burn, if that forced her to an alliance with the Empire to fight a common foe.

 

And there remains the issue of Satele & co. circumventing the system of govt. and allying with the Sith, which can definitely be held against them. Such a move will/would no doubt prove unpopular with the Senate and the people.

 

I dunno which is worse though:

 

The Jedi and Sith uniting against a common foe, which has happened in the past, or allowing the galaxy at large to be destroyed by said common foe.

 

Were the truth to ever come out, the Jedi and the military acted, while Saresh allowed her fanatical views to get the better of her; that, in addition to covering up a blemish with another potential blemish, as the future came to exemplify.

 

Ineffectual fool, she is.

 

Personally I do believe Saresh is on her way out, but not because of negative public opinion or some kind of political scandal, but because the evident friction between herself and the military/Jedi, which will only continue to escalate.

 

Something that I did point out earlier. It is called "chain of events", her friction between the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, the SiS, and the Supreme Commander, being part of it.

 

Look it up.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Darth_Wicked]

Before the Rise of the Hutt Cartel the lead Story dev even said the Emperor was indeed killed in an interview.

 

The writer in question was not the lead writer for the SW story, not to mention RotHC, Empire-side, shows otherwise.

 

The fact he is alive now is a retcon.

 

It's not a retcon. You have been proven incorrect earlier already on that one.

It should be fairly obvious the Jedi Knight is not aware of the existence of the Voice of the Emperor, seeing it is never addressed or even brought up throughout the class story.

 

In other words, when it defeated the Voice on the Dark Temple, it immediately assumed it was the Emperor, not a vessel housing the Voice.

 

Edited February 24, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Darth_Wicked]

Personally I'm not sure what the whole Makeb debacle is, as we referring to the Empire takeover? Is that not a secret from the Republic? Or the fact they failed to secure Isotope 5? As far as I'm aware they lost nothing, put a stop to the Hutts, and gained the support of the Cartel, I think that can easily be chalked up as a win.

 

I'll leave

and

here:

Millions of hungry mouths to feed and nothing to show for it. You pledged Makeb to us, Shalim, and you knew it was doomed.

This is a debacle. We came here seeking resources to defeat the Sith Empire. Instead, we're walking away with debts and obligations.

Plus this:

Absorption of the bulk of the Hutt Cartel’s assets after the Makeb debacle brought only short-term gains, and only after the substantial expense necessary to bring those Cartel operations in line with Republic interests and legal codes.

The Cartel is in shambles. The invasion of Makeb can only be seen as a disastrous failure for Cartel interests, with all resources committed to the campaign lost and almost nothing gained.

- - - -

If anything, the announcement of the Emperor's death was the cherry on top, not some kind of distraction.

 

Nop. It was clearly a distraction.

 

Hence her need, as seen

, to change the subject rather hastily, lest she be forced to delve into what the earlier links show. That includes her insensitivity towards the people of Makeb. Edited February 24, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[SpaceMedafighter]

Personally I don't think Saresh is going to take the knock for this issue. It would be easier to spin this as someone else's fault. Saresh seems like far too skilled a politician (if a not so great a leader) to lose it all over this.

 

Satele seems to be in a more dangerous place politically and I think could easily be blamed for this. Add to that the "unilateral" action utilizing republic military assets and a questionable history (for a Jedi) with the Supreme Commander, and I think an average politician could spin this in their favour.

 

Personally I think having Satele fall from grace (so to speak) could be interesting from a story perspective, especially since it seems Marr's future looks bleak (in game). This could lead to some interesting and darker republic stories.

[wolfshadowhunter]

Like most politicians she ONLY care about her self. I'd be very surprised if any player actually liked her

[Excise]

Like most politicians she ONLY care about her self. I'd be very surprised if any player actually liked her

 

Be surprised, then :-) I like her as a character. Satele's got the LS covered, so it's good to have a DS leader as well.

[Kyrrant]

Be surprised, then :-) I like her as a character. Satele's got the LS covered, so it's good to have a DS leader as well.

 

Ibid. If anything, she reminds the players that the Jedi are needed in the Republic for a reason, to be its conscience, its guide to prevent it from becoming the Galactic Empire darker minds might push it to.

 

Saresh is one such dark mind, but not in a psychotically evil sense. She's a ruthless politician with legit reasons for her heartlessness, someone that needs Satele's guidance. I wouldn't want to be friends with Saresh, sure, but as a character in a piece of fiction, I think she's a good one.

[wolfshadowhunter]

Be surprised, then :-) I like her as a character. Satele's got the LS covered, so it's good to have a DS leader as well.

 

ok I'm surprised