howieloader Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 they really are exceptionally easy to control. give them heals and maybe a guard swap though...my oh my. as lethal as ever, imo. This is accurate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calamatiesend Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 It's good you're going to stick it out... As far as roots etc go... You do know every class is trying to deal with these same problems, especially melee, but ranged as well... Sure some may have a utility etc to help... But once you make them use it they are in the same boat as you... its all tactics... LoL keep talking tactics this and tactics that, this comment makes me realize you do not play a melee in pvp let alone a mara/sent. Lets see which melees have trouble with roots/ccs?? Sins/shadow nope root break/immunity on speed 15 sec cd as well as other DCDs that can cleanse PT/Van nope, HO on 25 sec CD that gives immunity and 75% super speed! Ops/Scound, nope evasion on lolroll as well as multiple ways to purge Jugss/Guards, nope unstoppable and root immunity/speed bonus in utilities. You can say tactics all you want, at some point when two players of exceptional skill go at it, you are handicapped currently on a mara/sent because of your lack of mobility and 4m range. Yes we hit hard and you need to be careful about giving us too much, but any player worth their **** in pvp currently should be able to shut us down easily as most classes have access to 1-2 roots and a stun(if not more) which if you are smart can make our lives horrible..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calamatiesend Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 You make me laugh... Without knowing the players skills or tactics how can you make that assumption... Let me tell you this guy mixed up his tactics so he wasn't predictable... He obviously plays most other classes as well because he used all the tactics learned from playing those classes... He also knew when to retreat or disengage... Most Sents/maras I know just keep going till they die... He was smart... Knew how to survive and was back for more... I would bet there aren't many guys in the game with the sort of skill he had... But saying we were bad because he was exceptional... LoL You are missing the point. We do not have the tools to do all these amazing tactics against good opponents! Regs are regs, I get it. You played against a good sent/mara and he did well, thats all I can say from your example. I can tell you that if you play against good opponents, it is much easier for us to be shut down than other classes right now, regardless of tactics, we simply do not have the abilities to do our dmg and survive. End of story, in grouped rank with a healer/guard we can still be very useful but once again roots/KBs kill our time on target and we need some way to stay mobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 While this is true, you cannot deny that if that same skill is applied to other classes, they are clearly superior in every way than a marauder/sentinel.Yeah, tell that to merc players and commando players. Nothing is worse than them atm. -Nothing-. Before other classes are buffed, BW desperately needs to focus on those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallucigenocide Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 give them a root similar to electro net maybe? or perhaps a pull on a decent cd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) The problem you guys are failing to understand is the meta and the games original design. Marauders were given strong DCD's to counter the fact that they had very few ways to escape roots/snares and they had decent slows/roots themselves to stay on target. Back then things like fadeout/hydraulic override etc.... wer espec specific. You could still kite a marauder but it was nowhere near as easy as it is currently. The current meta with so many ways to escape roots/snares and the fact that you can kite a marauder blindfolded is the problem. Marauder didn't get any logical upgrades to counter the current meta. Sure the predation utility is neat but they have to give up damage to do it (no other class has to make that sacrifice.) and undying rage is still pretty much useless. They lost their ability to root from 10m and their new root requires you to use it twice. None of their specs are really dangerous because they are all easy to counter and its near impossible for the class to get consistent uptime on their targets. They are literally so bad right now in pvp that if you're going to play warrior play a juggernaut. Everything a marauder does, a juggernaut currently does 10x better in pvp right now. So yes, marauders are garbage. It is a complete waste of time to play them right now. Edited January 2, 2015 by Raansu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 The problem you guys are failing to understand is the meta and the games original design. Marauders were given strong DCD's to counter the fact that they had very few ways to escape roots/snares and they had decent slows/roots themselves to stay on target. Back then things like fadeout/hydraulic override etc.... wer espec specific. You could still kite a marauder but it was nowhere near as easy as it is currently. The current meta with so many ways to escape roots/snares and the fact that you can kite a marauder blindfolded is the problem. Marauder didn't get any logical upgrades to counter the current meta. Sure the predation utility is neat but they have to give up damage to do it (no other class has to make that sacrifice.) and undying rage is still pretty much useless. They lost their ability to root from 10m and their new root requires you to use it twice. None of their specs are really dangerous because they are all easy to counter and its near impossible for the class to get consistent uptime on their targets. They are literally so bad right now in pvp that if you're going to play warrior play a juggernaut. Everything a marauder does, a juggernaut currently does 10x better in pvp right now. So yes, marauders are garbage. It is a complete waste of time to play them right now.Correction, commando DOES have to give up mobility, if he wants decent defensive utilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belpheghor Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 The biggest problem with maras and sents is the shear number of stuns and roots they're susceptible to and the fact that they don't have any DCD that can protect them from them from focus fire. Jug/Guaridans have unstoppable (Immune from CC), deflect (powerful ranged defense), force push (CC push force leap reset), Endure (Immune from root 50% speed boost), and Enraged Defense (heal 2 full). Rebuke/Cloak of pain is a pitifully weak defensive. The only way for Sent/maras to survive is to hit and run. So basically without a dedicated healer supporting them they can attack for 2-5 seconds and run away the rest of the match. What kind of sustained DPS can you do with that? That's exactly how you have to play a Mara/Sent if you pug, hit and run. Literally I hop on a guy already under attack hoping he's burned his CCs already, try to kill him quickly and scram, run for the hills. One thing that might make Mara/Sent work better in PvP would be in the Utilities if we could cut the CD on Force Camo. Since we're literally forced to hit n' run, since we're so damn squishy with crap DCDs, let us cut Force Camo down to say 30 seconds maybe. You hit it right on the head, when you pug and are in a scrum you may only have 2 - 5 seconds to dish out dmg then you have to Force Camo out and hide/heal back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 That's exactly how you have to play a Mara/Sent if you pug, hit and run. Literally I hop on a guy already under attack hoping he's burned his CCs already, try to kill him quickly and scram, run for the hills. One thing that might make Mara/Sent work better in PvP would be in the Utilities if we could cut the CD on Force Camo. Since we're literally forced to hit n' run, since we're so damn squishy with crap DCDs, let us cut Force Camo down to say 30 seconds maybe. You hit it right on the head, when you pug and are in a scrum you may only have 2 - 5 seconds to dish out dmg then you have to Force Camo out and hide/heal back up.Yes, lets let them constantly use force camo, if that happens, I expect adrenaline rush to be 30 second cool down as well on commando. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcpark Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 No they aren't. If you know how to play them, you've got no problems. But i know it's hard to learn it, someone in my guild is playing a sent for three years now and i still hope he quits or change his main, because he can't play. So no offence, but l2p. Love it when sorce sage's run in here fearing their op status wont last for long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saikochoro Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 No sorry yes it is. I've seen some good sents/maras since 3.0 and they do just fine if not better. I've seen some amazing mercs too. I wouldn't use that as proof that they don't need help though. An exceptionally skilled person can make any class work. That same person will be complete faceroll mode on a viable/op class though. Skill isn't the issue; class disparity is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foambreaker Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 If your space ship is not equipped then your observations about 3.0 balance are fail. Sad fact of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saikochoro Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 you have to use 2 GCD on an ability that does almost no damage to put a root on someone for 3 sec... and you have to be in 4 meter range for those 3-4 seconds to land it, good luck. THIS IS SOOO DUMB, no other word could better explain the stupidity here. Yeah when I saw that I was like "W T F!" I don't main a mara. Never really found them very fun, even back in the smash days. Always prefered juggs even before ED. But this change....I don't even know what to say about it....I think you said about all that can be said about it. Such a dick move by the devs. Musco's statement that the devs left all the class meetings saying each class is "SOOO OP OMG!" is such bs. They were probably laughing when they left the mara meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saikochoro Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 That's exactly how you have to play a Mara/Sent if you pug, hit and run. Literally I hop on a guy already under attack hoping he's burned his CCs already, try to kill him quickly and scram, run for the hills. Sounds like what a lot of ops used to have to do haha. Not that I enjoy that. Maybe in the next class questions round they will tell you to be "slippery, shady characters" to make you feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramtar Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) That's exactly how you have to play a Mara/Sent if you pug, hit and run. Literally I hop on a guy already under attack hoping he's burned his CCs already, try to kill him quickly and scram, run for the hills. One thing that might make Mara/Sent work better in PvP would be in the Utilities if we could cut the CD on Force Camo. Since we're literally forced to hit n' run, since we're so damn squishy with crap DCDs, let us cut Force Camo down to say 30 seconds maybe. You hit it right on the head, when you pug and are in a scrum you may only have 2 - 5 seconds to dish out dmg then you have to Force Camo out and hide/heal back up. What you are describing is playing the Sentinel/Marauder as a support DPS, which is BS. Balance is when any AC can defeat all other AC in 1v1: 50% of the time. People say 1v1 doesn't matter in PvP because it's a team oriented MMO. No matter because you will be locking into a 1v1 situation sooner or later, if you run enough WZs. Why can a Sniper/Gunslinger, suppose to be the arch AC for Sentinel/Marauder; survive longer, and put out more DPS/damage numbers? Edited January 2, 2015 by Ramtar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjwestlake Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 That's a load of rubbish I played against a particular Sent in about 15 matches yesterday... It was like playing against an OP Jugg... Why?? Because he knew how to play... Most matches he had no healer and was nearly impossible to kill... I personally did 500k damage just to him in one match, while he took 800k in total... and he pumped out 1.7mil over all... I saw this sort of thing match after match... Didn't matter if he popped with a sh*t team, he still did massive numbers We both ended up going after each other when we popped together... Anyway... The player makes the class... The class doesn't make the player... An awesome player will always make any class appear OP... While a mediocre player will complain how bad the class is... It's a not a L2P problem, it's a learn some skill problem I agree with all of your posts a great player can make this gimped class work. I play fury with 100 crit proc by leap and zealous leap with predation up most of the time. I can stay on target easily if your fast enough with keybinds. Ranked is a little different but reg wz solo or with a premade I do very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calamatiesend Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 The problem you guys are failing to understand is the meta and the games original design. Marauders were given strong DCD's to counter the fact that they had very few ways to escape roots/snares and they had decent slows/roots themselves to stay on target. Back then things like fadeout/hydraulic override etc.... wer espec specific. You could still kite a marauder but it was nowhere near as easy as it is currently. The current meta with so many ways to escape roots/snares and the fact that you can kite a marauder blindfolded is the problem. Marauder didn't get any logical upgrades to counter the current meta. Sure the predation utility is neat but they have to give up damage to do it (no other class has to make that sacrifice.) and undying rage is still pretty much useless. They lost their ability to root from 10m and their new root requires you to use it twice. None of their specs are really dangerous because they are all easy to counter and its near impossible for the class to get consistent uptime on their targets. They are literally so bad right now in pvp that if you're going to play warrior play a juggernaut. Everything a marauder does, a juggernaut currently does 10x better in pvp right now. So yes, marauders are garbage. It is a complete waste of time to play them right now. Very well said! We need some tools to bring our mobility up to the current metas standards or we need stronger DCD. I would rather we just got a little help to mobility and then we will be set Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodneyMcNeely Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 True Harmony should have been included in both the Guardian AND Sentinel Utility trees. Maybe attached to Transcendence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosonman Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Here's what Sent/Mara's need in a bad way -A CC immunity utility like Force Shroud that makes the invulnerable to CC's for a short period of time-The revamp of Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage to make remove the health penalty and make it usable while CC'd. They could also make it so during it's duration outside heals are reduced by 99% but stims can be used. Edited January 2, 2015 by chosonman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcpark Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 That's a load of rubbish I played against a particular Sent in about 15 matches yesterday... It was like playing against an OP Jugg... Why?? Because he knew how to play... Most matches he had no healer and was nearly impossible to kill... I personally did 500k damage just to him in one match, while he took 800k in total... and he pumped out 1.7mil over all... I saw this sort of thing match after match... Didn't matter if he popped with a sh*t team, he still did massive numbers We both ended up going after each other when we popped together... Anyway... The player makes the class... The class doesn't make the player... An awesome player will always make any class appear OP... While a mediocre player will complain how bad the class is... It's a not a L2P problem, it's a learn some skill problem Post some screen shots more then willing to bet that sent had some really strong heals on his side. The real prob here is the class completely depends on the grp he or she is in this simply doesnt hold true with the other classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosonman Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Maras and Sents are the "Feel good class" in that they make noobs feel good when the beat one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I also have fought a mara in 60s who is truly a great player, he does a lot of damage and is very effective at what he is supposed to do. That being said, I honestly think this player falls into a 1-2% group who actually can create this much productivity on a class that must be pretty tough to do so on. If it was not so hard, you'd see tons of Mara/Sents. Instead, you see tons of PTs, Juggs, Sorcs, and Sins. Why? Because they are the easiest classes to play and win on. That being said, I think it's only fair other classes like Mara/Sent, Sniper, Merc deserve to be more effective without the immense work it takes to make them competitive. If you have to try that hard, it's hard to imagine they are much fun. If they are not much fun, you will not see many of this class in pvp or pve. Sure. All of us can think of rare individuals who can make a weak class shine, but is that really a fair way to judge a class and it's potential? I don't think it's fair. Also, I wonder how far these players could go on say, a PT as it stands in 3.0 now? My god. If a player can make a marauder/sentinel look great, what would they do on a class that is 10X easier? Scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belpheghor Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) What you are describing is playing the Sentinel/Marauder as a support DPS, which is BS. Balance is when any AC can defeat all other AC in 1v1: 50% of the time. People say 1v1 doesn't matter in PvP because it's a team oriented MMO. No matter because you will be locking into a 1v1 situation sooner or later, if you run enough WZs. Why can a Sniper/Gunslinger, suppose to be the arch AC for Sentinel/Marauder; survive longer, and put out more DPS/damage numbers? NO, what I'm describing is the reality of how you pretty much have to play if you pug. Without heals you HAVE to play a support dps role. When I play that way I can actually get decent dmg numbers, kills and few deaths. As a Mara I don't want to 1v1 since EVERYONE else has better CCs than me. I'm FAR better off jumping on the guy ALREADY under attack and being a dps support. Adapt or die, it's life, deal. There was a time long, long ago when the forums were FILLED with Nerf Mara threads, life has come full circle.......deep eh? Edited January 2, 2015 by Belpheghor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DhaTheDead Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) The problem you guys are failing to understand is the meta and the games original design. Marauders were given strong DCD's to counter the fact that they had very few ways to escape roots/snares and they had decent slows/roots themselves to stay on target. Back then things like fadeout/hydraulic override etc.... wer espec specific. You could still kite a marauder but it was nowhere near as easy as it is currently. The current meta with so many ways to escape roots/snares and the fact that you can kite a marauder blindfolded is the problem. Marauder didn't get any logical upgrades to counter the current meta. Sure the predation utility is neat but they have to give up damage to do it (no other class has to make that sacrifice.) and undying rage is still pretty much useless. They lost their ability to root from 10m and their new root requires you to use it twice. None of their specs are really dangerous because they are all easy to counter and its near impossible for the class to get consistent uptime on their targets. They are literally so bad right now in pvp that if you're going to play warrior play a juggernaut. Everything a marauder does, a juggernaut currently does 10x better in pvp right now. So yes, marauders are garbage. It is a complete waste of time to play them right now. This pretty much sums it up though I disagree they're useless. The biggest difference is the meta. Pre 3.0 we faced the same problems if our/opposing teams compositions are the way they are now. If your teams full of ranged and sins you're the only visible target that's in the enemies lines at the start of a fight making you the natural focus. Combine this with the opposing teams now running more ranged with KBs/ roots and it makes for some extremely frustrating matches. To counter this I've tried to stay out of the skirmish for a few seconds until people settle into their targets, definitely helps when their juggs on your team to eat those KBs before you get there. Also if you're having problems and your running Carnage/Combat try Anni. New dot is ranged allowing you to apply it after you've got KB, you're leap doesn't have a distance restriction, you don't need to stay on target 100% to do damage and with the set bonus it actually does a surprising amount of burst with the apply dots-Ravage/MS-Anni/Merciless combo. Since I've switched I've just found the spec sort of alleviates the areas Mara's are having problems in right now (Survivability, Kited) a bit. The class does need an movement immunity buff and I for the life of me have no idea why they took away our ranged root and gave it to Juggs who without it still don't have any problems staying on target. Though we're not 100% useless, our burst is still some of the best in the game and on the right team we're still lethal as we've ever been maybe even more so if you manage to run Carnage with the support you need for you to stay alive. Edited January 2, 2015 by DhaTheDead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcpark Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 This pretty much sums it up though I disagree they're useless. The biggest difference is the meta. Pre 3.0 we faced the same problems if our/opposing teams compositions are the way they are now. If your teams full of ranged and sins you're the only visible target that's in the enemies lines at the start of a fight making you the natural focus. Combine this with the opposing teams now running more ranged with KBs/ roots and it makes for some extremely frustrating matches. To counter this try staying hidden at the start of skrimishes until people have settled into their targets then leap in, you're more valuable to your team doing damage and only Mercs have a tougher time dealing with being focused. Also, Anni/Watchman are the specs you want to run if you're not queing with a team. It's new DOT is ranged, allowing you to apply it while recovering from the KBs/roots, you don't need to stay on your target to do damage, lol sounds like playing a sin without stealth only the other end of the saber impales you when switched on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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