Van/PT are OP as **** need to be beet down with the nerfbat!

[Brunner_Venda]

From a PvP stand point, AP's burst potential is borderline obsurd. I don't think anyone can argue that.

 

But from my point of view, the real issue is the playstyle change in 3.0 that has broken AP.

 

1) 30m Thermal Det. The old Pyro spec TD was nerfed back in the day to 10m because PT's are a melee class. Now you can setup your burst from 30m. Bad idea, but it doesn't stop there...

 

2) Rail Shot doesn't require a bleeding target. Pre-3.0 AP's playstyle was to get in at 4m, Retracble Blade then proceed with your rotation. Now, RB isn't even needed to blow someone up. Sure it's a sustatined damage increase and helps with energy management quite a bit, but isn't exactly "required".

 

3) LOLHydralics. The 45% speed increase is quite possibly the stupidest idea I've seen implimented in this game. Add to that, that PT's can spec into a perma-snare on their spammable attack. The combination of these 2 utilities make them either unkitable or damn near impossible to stay on target as a mDps.

 

4) 15m flame/mag burst is dumb. Again, PT's are a melee class.

 

5) Shoulder Cannons. The ICD is far too short, which we know. But, I'd also argue that Pyro is the spec that needs 7 rockets now, not AP. AP in 2.x had 7 rockets to aid in its single target burst (because it was a more cleave oriented spec). Since 3.0 effectively swapped the 2 specs it stands to reason that the burst spec now should only get 4 rockets.

 

1. This one should actually stay, PT is a mid range spec not melee. Having one long range burst ability isn't bad, we're not exactly snipers.

 

2. I have No idea why they changed this, it makes the class stupid faceroll easy to play, bringing legions of morons into the spec. I wouldn't mind if rail shot required bleeding or vulnerable (explosive dart or thermal det ticking)

 

3. 45% is a little high, I was expecting 10-20% speed bump. They gave us LOL OP ROLL! Stupid devs.

I Can't disagree with the snare. Retractable blade is supposed to be the snare for this class spec, but that's a melee attack that would require the PT to get in your range. They can fix that by sticking the flame/magnetic snare in masterful.

 

4. Again. Mid range class. Not melee. Get it right. Not everyone is glow bat fodder. 15 meters is perfectl fine.

 

5. If you take the seven SC rockets it needs to be replaced with a new DCD, something good, like the old Degauss ability. Otherwise, we're keeping it, because shield sucks and kolto is sub par compared to what juggs and maras get. As it is the only defense we get is to global people, because otherwise we're dead. We don't get ED and I would gladly take undying rage (health penalty and all) for ranked.

[TalonVII]

Is it so horrible that a class once thought of as a joke finally has some utility? I mean is it so shocking that PT/Vans finally have something where they can go up against smashmonkey warriors or knights? I mean really, it's not OP, you just have to -gasp- THINK and use STRATEGY to defeat them.

 

I know, tough concept here but try OP.

[detora]

1. This one should actually stay, PT is a mid range spec not melee. Having one long range burst ability isn't bad, we're not exactly snipers.

 

2. I have No idea why they changed this, it makes the class stupid faceroll easy to play, bringing legions of morons into the spec. I wouldn't mind if rail shot required bleeding or vulnerable (explosive dart or thermal det ticking)

 

3. 45% is a little high, I was expecting 10-20% speed bump. They gave us LOL OP ROLL! Stupid devs.

I Can't disagree with the snare. Retractable blade is supposed to be the snare for this class spec, but that's a melee attack that would require the PT to get in your range. They can fix that by sticking the flame/magnetic snare in masterful.

 

4. Again. Mid range class. Not melee. Get it right. Not everyone is glow bat fodder. 15 meters is perfectl fine.

 

5. If you take the seven SC rockets it needs to be replaced with a new DCD, something good, like the old Degauss ability. Otherwise, we're keeping it, because shield sucks and kolto is sub par compared to what juggs and maras get. As it is the only defense we get is to global people, because otherwise we're dead. We don't get ED and I would gladly take undying rage (health penalty and all) for ranked.

 

I played AP/Tactics for a long time (since pre2.0). The playstyle was most certainly frontline/melee. At that time Smash was still a thing, and AP was a very good counter to the lolsmashtards running around. I do accept that PT has changed quite a bit now. I disagree almost entirely with what the devs did by making AP, like you've said, a midranged class. They're unkiteable and can pillar hump when getting focused. 2 of their strongest abilities crit for 9-11k and are 30m range.

 

4) Concealment operatives would like to have a word with you (referring to the glowbat comment ) Anyways, 15m range is unprecedented and doesn't make sense considering PTs can burst from 30m, have constant uptime on a 50% snare and 10sec Hydraulics. It's broken, but players that main this class tend not to see it.

 

5) AP's AoE taunt now gives the user 30% defense chance. That's what the old Degauss did. AP has 30% AoE reduction and 30% reduction while stunned. Mara's in particular have to use a utility to get the former and have no option for the latter. Energy Shield is no slouch, and the CD gets reduced to under a minute while taking damage (I never did the math, but it's up quite often). And dont forget about Energy Redoubt which absorbs a bit of damage as well. Kolto alone doesn't prevent you from being bursted down, but KO+dmg reduction while stunned is very good. KO+adrenal will keep you alive outside of a 15k Ambush.

 

As it stands, AP can take roughly 90k damage (on par with Juggs in fact) to be killed if you cycle your DCD's well and spec into SC heals. Mara's can take barely half of that. And any smart player will save a stun/mezz for when UR is popped, so no, UR is probably one of the worst DCD's in the game currently. In ranked 4s it's not bad, but that assumes your healer can freecast to burst you back up.

[Catholicc]

I wish they'd bring back the (separate) GBC that shoulder cannon used to have. ..and reduced the range back to 10m of all the assassin's dots.

[ThaadJarvis]

Anyone suggesting AP needs nerfed probably just came from getting rolled on. Fact is: new mechanics + decent dmg + easy L2play for PT's = probable hesitation upon facing an AP in pvp ..first thoughts racing through ppls minds are clearly intimidation due to watching others and themselves get owned. It is a midrange class >without< JetCharge / no stealth / and a less often sprint if specced. I remember pyrotech pre 3.0 was pretty devastating in PvP being the "single target monster" and people were perfectly fine with it.

[LanceCorporalDan]

Anyone suggesting AP needs nerfed probably just came from getting rolled on. Fact is: new mechanics + decent dmg + easy L2play for PT's = probable hesitation upon facing an AP in pvp ..first thoughts racing through ppls minds are clearly intimidation due to watching others and themselves get owned. It is a midrange class >without< JetCharge / no stealth / and a less often sprint if specced. I remember pyrotech pre 3.0 was pretty devastating in PvP being the "single target monster" and people were perfectly fine with it.

 

Wrong in my eyes.

 

I played Tactics primarily 2.0-3.0 and now with these recent changes I just rolled with it. It is in need of some changes but nothing too drastic as others have suggested. To claim that it is "fine as is" is absurd.

 

For my /2cents:

 

•Of course the ICD on SC needs to be addressed.

•30m range on abilities seems excessive, 15-10m seems best.

•Add more survivability to the class in compensation to these nerfs. On what exactly I haven't quite determined the best route in my opinion... open to suggestions.

[Brunner_Venda]

5) AP's AoE taunt now gives the user 30% defense chance. That's what the old Degauss did. AP has 30% AoE reduction and 30% reduction while stunned. Mara's in particular have to use a utility to get the former and have no option for the latter. Energy Shield is no slouch, and the CD gets reduced to under a minute while taking damage (I never did the math, but it's up quite often). And dont forget about Energy Redoubt which absorbs a bit of damage as well. Kolto alone doesn't prevent you from being bursted down, but KO+dmg reduction while stunned is very good. KO+adrenal will keep you alive outside of a 15k Ambush.

 

As it stands, AP can take roughly 90k damage (on par with Juggs in fact) to be killed if you cycle your DCD's well and spec into SC heals. Mara's can take barely half of that. And any smart player will save a stun/mezz for when UR is popped, so no, UR is probably one of the worst DCD's in the game currently. In ranked 4s it's not bad, but that assumes your healer can freecast to burst you back up.

 

We all know about the DCD on sonic missile.

 

Problem is that none of us want it there, because you have a choice to either AOE taunt effectively to help your friends, or save it for yourself to help against focus fire when it's needed. Most of the time you help your friends when they're focus fired if you're smart, and the DCD does you no good.

 

It's terrible now, and putting it on a separate ability (Degauss) is a huge buff. Make it 40% damage avoidance, give the seven missiles to pyro spec, and require vulnerable/bleeding for rail shot, and I think it will be fine.

 

PS: anyone can pillar hump, that's kind of a weak argument.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Brunner_Venda

[ThaadJarvis]

Are any AP's out there doing lvl 60 Ops seeing any real use for the DCD on sonic missile, I usually add SM (now a threat drop) onto the end of my burst rotations now to to keep threat low while my dps spikes and I thought this DCD would further the convenience for everyone, but I wasn't sure if the shields put on players is doing anything other than making people think "hmm he wasted a talent". Do the shields have a percentage of damaged decreased or is it absorbed entirely? I would assume regular use of this ability could be helpful if timed correctly.

[DrBonzai]

Like many of you who post on the forums, I too played Assault Vanguard since the very beginning. It's refreshing now to log into the game and play Plasma-tech Vanguard at the same ranges I played back in the beginning, because when I rolled an Assault Vanguard back then I didn't roll one to play a melee class. However, then came the dark days of re-balancing which left me with one useful 30 meter attack (HiB), and a bunch of 15 meter attacks that were shortened down to 10 meters and some to 5 meters. That left me with a huge question mark as to what role an Assault Vanguard plays in raids. I didn't have many useful ranged attacks to be true ranged, and although I had a powerful melee attack, I lacked the defenses to be true melee. It had gotten quite bad to the point that the majority of the Assault Vanguards on my server were put on moth balls or did what most Assault Vanguards did which was they spec'd over to Tactics Vanguard. For a while there I was one of only a handful of active Assault Vanguards playing. At the moment I am enjoying 3.0 and Plasma-tech Vanguard. It feels like I have all the flexibility of the old days. For some of you that think VG should forced with 15m-10m ranged attacks, I say BS to that!

 

I do PvP and I do enjoy it, but I'm getting sick and tired of PvPers demanding nerfs to professions because every time nerfs are demanded, it time and again affects PvE raiding. And given BioWare's past track record with the balancing of VG/PT, I'm not enthusiastic about seeing BioWare rebalancing VG/PT again.

Edited January 16, 2015 by DrBonzai

[LanceCorporalDan]

Like many of you who post on the forums, I too played Assault Vanguard since the very beginning. It's refreshing now to log into the game and play Plasma-tech Vanguard at the same ranges I played back in the beginning, because when I rolled an Assault Vanguard back then I didn't roll one to play a melee class. However, then came the dark days of re-balancing which left me with one useful 30 meter attack (HiB), and a bunch of 15 meter attacks that were shortened down to 10 meters and some to 5 meters. That left me with a huge question mark as to what role an Assault Vanguard plays in raids. I didn't have many useful ranged attacks to be true ranged, and although I had a powerful melee attack, I lacked the defenses to be true melee. It had gotten quite bad to the point that the majority of the Assault Vanguards on my server were put on moth balls or did what most Assault Vanguards did which was they spec'd over to Tactics Vanguard. For a while there I was one of only a handful of active Assault Vanguards playing. At the moment I am enjoying 3.0 and Plasma-tech Vanguard. It feels like I have all the flexibility of the old days. For some of you that think VG should forced with 15m-10m ranged attacks, I say BS to that!

 

I do PvP and I do enjoy it, but I'm getting sick and tired of PvPers demanding nerfs to professions because every time nerfs are demanded, it time and again affects PvE raiding. And given BioWare's past track record with the balancing of VG/PT, I'm not enthusiastic about seeing BioWare rebalancing VG/PT again.

 

30m range is uncalled for with this class and the way it works, if you want range dps go Merc/Mando. VGs/PTs are supposed to be on the front of the fights, keeping at 10m (15m tops) and swinging in for gut application and stockstrike hits. So I say BS to that!

 

It would be foolish to deny balancing for PvE doesn't affect PvP, or vice versa. The best the devs can do on this part is to only make minor changes steadily over time, evaluate where the class stands, then move from there.

[DrBonzai]

30m range is uncalled for with this class and the way it works, if you want range dps go Merc/Mando. VGs/PTs are supposed to be on the front of the fights, keeping at 10m (15m tops) and swinging in for gut application and stockstrike hits. So I say BS to that!

 

It would be foolish to deny balancing for PvE doesn't affect PvP, or vice versa. The best the devs can do on this part is to only make minor changes steadily over time, evaluate where the class stands, then move from there.

 

Wrong!

 

In the beginning that was not how Assault VG was meant to be played. But since all you really ever played was Tactics VG starting with 2.0 (those are your own words from one of your previous posts), which was what everyone spec'd to because Assault VG sucked so bad, you couldn't possibly remember that it was only after a series of poorly thought out nerfs, excuse me, I meant say re-balancing that VG/PT became frontline classes. PvP and PvE are two different things in SWtoR. In this game time and again, changes made by the dev's for PvP always end up hurting us in PvE. And lets be adults here and be totally honest about SWtoR PvP. Why in gods name do people even PvP in this game anymore? Until they add meaningful world PvP, there's no reason to PvP in this game because in it's current state PvP in this game is nothing more than lobby PvP stun fest.

 

With Boss mechanics in the new 3.0 ops, nerfs can be devastating to classes that get nerfed and their effectiveness in the new raids. From past experience, how many raid bosses in the ops were adjusted to compensate for nerfs done to player classes in SWtoR? One thing I see all the time in MMO's is that dev's rarely have the guts to state to a player base that these classes are working as they are intended. No sooner does complaints appear on the forums do the dev attempt to make everyone happy which always ends up leading to a chain reaction of nerfs that hit every profession. And in the time that it takes for the dev's to make their adjustments as needed to see what works and what doesn't it'll will be way too long. And lately BioWare seems to rather use its own in-house testers instead of letting the players help by testing and providing their results to the dev's.

 

For the record, I do enjoy SWtoR very much. However, PvP is NOT one of this games shinning examples.

Edited January 16, 2015 by DrBonzai

[headshot_hendo]

Why should'nt the PT get some 30m ranged attacks? Marauder and jugg have 30m ranged attacks. This is the dumbest argument ive seen lol.

You are saying because you stand wide out in the open as a ranged people shouldnt be able to attack you? If a PT has to close the gap he shouldnt be able to attack you with anything but base shots because you cant handle any focus?

 

I assure you if you are havinh any issues with PT/VG range its because you are stupid enough to be caught in the open. Besides sorcs and snipers and possibly mercs, id have to check, are all 35m classes. Way to think your arguments through though your bias and anger didnt influence your complaints at all.

[DethlaHadyn]

Why should'nt the PT get some 30m ranged attacks? Marauder and jugg have 30m ranged attacks. This is the dumbest argument ive seen lol.

You are saying because you stand wide out in the open as a ranged people shouldnt be able to attack you? If a PT has to close the gap he shouldnt be able to attack you with anything but base shots because you cant handle any focus?

 

I assure you if you are havinh any issues with PT/VG range its because you are stupid enough to be caught in the open. Besides sorcs and snipers and possibly mercs, id have to check, are all 35m classes. Way to think your arguments through though your bias and anger didnt influence your complaints at all.

 

lol, some people just like to post for the sake of posting... The "Nerf PT Range" chant will die off when they realize how incredibly stupid they are for singing it in the first place.

 

I've suggested it in a couple other threads, but I'd much rather see them retain the current mechanics, but reduce the upfront damage potential from Energy Burst and Shoulder Cannon, and then give some of that damage back into our Retractable Blade bleeds. Somewhere along the likes of a 25% upfront reduction, to be reapplied into our bleeds. I'm not an expert on pve mechanics, but if the devs are happy with AP's current damage potential, they'd have to find away to balance the overall damage while retaining every ounce of it.

[LanceCorporalDan]

Wrong!

 

In the beginning that was not how Assault VG was meant to be played. But since all you really ever played was Tactics VG starting with 2.0 (those are your own words from one of your previous posts), which was what everyone spec'd to because Assault VG sucked so bad, you couldn't possibly remember that it was only after a series of poorly thought out nerfs, excuse me, I meant say re-balancing that VG/PT became frontline classes. PvP and PvE are two different things in SWtoR. In this game time and again, changes made by the dev's for PvP always end up hurting us in PvE. And lets be adults here and be totally honest about SWtoR PvP. Why in gods name do people even PvP in this game anymore? Until they add meaningful world PvP, there's no reason to PvP in this game because in it's current state PvP in this game is nothing more than lobby PvP stun fest.

 

With Boss mechanics in the new 3.0 ops, nerfs can be devastating to classes that get nerfed and their effectiveness in the new raids. From past experience, how many raid bosses in the ops were adjusted to compensate for nerfs done to player classes in SWtoR? One thing I see all the time in MMO's is that dev's rarely have the guts to state to a player base that these classes are working as they are intended. No sooner does complaints appear on the forums do the dev attempt to make everyone happy which always ends up leading to a chain reaction of nerfs that hit every profession. And in the time that it takes for the dev's to make their adjustments as needed to see what works and what doesn't it'll will be way too long. And lately BioWare seems to rather use its own in-house testers instead of letting the players help by testing and providing their results to the dev's.

 

For the record, I do enjoy SWtoR very much. However, PvP is NOT one of this games shinning examples.

 

Okay, let's see here.

In the beginning that was not how Assault VG was meant to be played. But since all you really ever played was Tactics VG starting with 2.0 (those are your own words from one of your previous posts), which was what everyone spec'd to because Assault VG sucked so bad, you couldn't possibly remember that it was only after a series of poorly thought out nerfs, excuse me, I meant say re-balancing that VG/PT became frontline classes.

 

No... I didn't "only play tactics starting with 2.0" I simply said I played it primarily from 2.0-3.0 Prior to 2.0 I was assault, about halfway through 2.0 I went tank for the lulz, and at the end I switched between Tactics-Assault based on which I felt like playing at the time. Again, just because "well this is how it was at launch!!!" doesn't mean all of the classes operated in an environment together the way BW intended... hence the changes shortly after launch, not only to this class but most others as well.

 

PvP and PvE are two different things in SWtoR. In this game time and again, changes made by the dev's for PvP always end up hurting us in PvE. And lets be adults here and be totally honest about SWtoR PvP. Why in gods name do people even PvP in this game anymore? Until they add meaningful world PvP, there's no reason to PvP in this game because in it's current state PvP in this game is nothing more than lobby PvP stun fest.

 

I agree they are different, however the common thread is class balancing what happens in one will affect the other, and vice versa. I've already said this. The devs have a job of finding a common ground where changes made on one end of the spectrum won't impact the other end terribly. Why would people PvP? By the same token why would people PvE? Because they enjoy it. PvPers have their different reasons, I enjoy it immensely and it is really the only thing I do outside of some raids (maybe a HM with the right guildies), and RP. The stun hype is overdone IMO, it really isn't that bad if you understand the system.

 

With Boss mechanics in the new 3.0 ops, nerfs can be devastating to classes that get nerfed and their effectiveness in the new raids. From past experience, how many raid bosses in the ops were adjusted to compensate for nerfs done to player classes in SWtoR? One thing I see all the time in MMO's is that dev's rarely have the guts to state to a player base that these classes are working as they are intended. No sooner does complaints appear on the forums do the dev attempt to make everyone happy which always ends up leading to a chain reaction of nerfs that hit every profession. And in the time that it takes for the dev's to make their adjustments as needed to see what works and what doesn't it'll will be way too long. And lately BioWare seems to rather use its own in-house testers instead of letting the players help by testing and providing their results to the dev's.

 

I agree, nerfs can devastate a class, which is why I say BW needs to adopt the policy of minor tweaks instead of heavy handed nerfs/buffs to specs based around endgame datacollection. This eliminates the point of view that because one class changes others should as well.

[LanceCorporalDan]

lol, some people just like to post for the sake of posting... The "Nerf PT Range" chant will die off when they realize how incredibly stupid they are for singing it in the first place.

 

I've suggested it in a couple other threads, but I'd much rather see them retain the current mechanics, but reduce the upfront damage potential from Energy Burst and Shoulder Cannon, and then give some of that damage back into our Retractable Blade bleeds. Somewhere along the likes of a 25% upfront reduction, to be reapplied into our bleeds. I'm not an expert on pve mechanics, but if the devs are happy with AP's current damage potential, they'd have to find away to balance the overall damage while retaining every ounce of it.

 

Incredibly stupid? Elaborate please.

 

I don't take issue with PT/VG having 30m range per-se, but I don't really see the need for it with our great HO/HtL and when stockstrike and gut have 4m range requiring you to dance in and out of the 15-4m circle. Because of this, it leads me to believe the spec is designed to be played at this distance, closing in only for those two abilities. And the use of HO/HtL combine with that to close the range quickly on targets or too escape.

 

Cell Burst/Energy Burst damage I admittedly am on the fence about. I've said it several times before spanning multiple threads: It does very nice damage, however it's drawback is it's windup time. The question I ask myself on this is "Does the windup time level out the damage it produces?" (Prefight Recharge and Reload aside).

 

SC damage isn't really the issue, it's the ICD that allows the rapid burst that is.

 

I like the suggested addition to the bleed.

[headshot_hendo]

If they increase the damage on RB or gut then sticky grenade and explo dart need to spread the bleed then. The whole purpose of RS/HIB no longer requiring affected targets is we have no ranged dot. Most of our ranged attacks would be negated if we can not close the gap. This wont affect good players but the majority which is what decisions made are based on would be crippled because they couldnt do anything until they closed the gap.

 

This is of course only if you reduce the range on attacks. Some defensives would also help if you force PTs into the fray with melee.

 

PT/VG are not a melee class and should not be restricted to melee just because people cant handle kiting.

 

I like the way PT plays because it requires movement you are always doing something if you want to survive it provides a middle ground between lolfreecasters and ohlookstuffpokeitwithsaber. The honest issue is team balancing i think which cant be remedied. If a team had a mix of mid range range and melee things wouldnt be as drastic as peoplr claim to be. Sadly alot of people wind up facing either all ranged or all melee fairly often which adds an unforseen advantage/disadvantage depending on the skill levels.

Edited January 16, 2015 by headshot_hendo

[DethlaHadyn]

If they reduced the damage on RB or gut then sticky grenade and explo dart need to spread the bleed then.

 

 

Not sure where you are going with this, but I was stating that the *upfront* damage that AP can do could be reduced from Energy Burst and Shoulder Cannon by a certain %, then in return, the overall damage loss could be reapplied in Retractable Blade (intial attack and bleeds inclusive). So we'd be petitioning for a swap... Less upfront, but no potential losses for the fight.

[Brunner_Venda]

I'm of a mind to say to **** with everyone.

 

You don't see these threads in the Sorc or Assassin forums.

 

No PT nerfs until the other two are brought into line first.

 

Unless you think you can fight hatred with a 10 meter nerf, no HTL, no burst on energy blast, no SC, etc.

[DethlaHadyn]

Incredibly stupid? Elaborate please.

 

I don't take issue with PT/VG having 30m range per-se, but I don't really see the need for it with our great HO/HtL and when stockstrike and gut have 4m range requiring you to dance in and out of the 15-4m circle. Because of this, it leads me to believe the spec is designed to be played at this distance, closing in only for those two abilities. And the use of HO/HtL combine with that to close the range quickly on targets or too escape.

 

Cell Burst/Energy Burst damage I admittedly am on the fence about. I've said it several times before spanning multiple threads: It does very nice damage, however it's drawback is it's windup time. The question I ask myself on this is "Does the windup time level out the damage it produces?" (Prefight Recharge and Reload aside).

 

SC damage isn't really the issue, it's the ICD that allows the rapid burst that is.

 

I like the suggested addition to the bleed.

 

If you want to use HO to chase a sorc, and then have limited options to get back to him after he brushed off your damage and healedtofull... and yet need me to illustrate more ways to you on how limiting AP's range is dumb... I mean, in that scenario, sorcs/sages for example have enough control over melee as it is. You want to limit your attack range against them? against snipers? Yes, that's incredibly stupid. Pyro at least can apply dots and still damage a target from range(technically), but still need the initial melee encounter. AP is unique on that regard in that it can damage from further distances. Is the range absolutely game breaking?, no,but we're carrying guns ffs, not lightsabers lmao.

 

 

Shoulder Cannons damage IS the issue, IF they retain the current application rate. Because we can select the healing utility, increasing the cooldown is silly. I'd rather have it remain as it is, but have reduced damage, knowing full well that that damage would only be swapped over to my Blade bleeds. Trust me, there are better ways to balance AP burst, and still keep the current abilities in place.

 

 

Once again, my suggestion isn't to just blindly increase the bleeds per-se, it's only an exchange granted from the removal of some of AP's upfront burst, which exists entirely in Energy Burst and Shoulder Cannon. For example, timing thermal detonator and railshot to hit same time is a skill based burst application, same thing for pyro with explosive dart and railshot hitting the target same time. That type of AP burst isn't being debated here, but removing the range to enable this inherent burst is just...silly.

Edited January 16, 2015 by DethlaHadyn

[LanceCorporalDan]

If you want to use HO to chase a sorc, and then have limited options to get back to him after he brushed off your damage and healedtofull... and yet need me to illustrate more ways to you on how limiting AP's range is dumb... I mean, in that scenario, sorcs/sages for example have enough control over melee as it is. You want to limit your attack range against them? against snipers? Yes, that's incredibly stupid. Pyro at least can apply dots and still damage a target from range(technically), but still need the initial melee encounter. AP is unique on that regard in that it can damage from further distances. Is the range absolutely game breaking?, no,but we're carrying guns ffs, not lightsabers lmao.

 

 

Shoulder Cannons damage IS the issue, IF they retain the current application rate. Because we can select the healing utility, increasing the cooldown is silly. I'd rather have it remain as it is, but have reduced damage, knowing full well that that damage would only be swapped over to my Blade bleeds. Trust me, there are better ways to balance AP burst, and still keep the current abilities in place.

 

 

Once again, my suggestion isn't to just blindly increase the bleeds per-se, it's only an exchange granted from the removal of some of AP's upfront burst, which exists entirely in Energy Burst and Shoulder Cannon. For example, timing thermal detonator and railshot to hit same time is a skill based burst application, same thing for pyro with explosive dart and railshot hitting the target same time. That type of AP burst isn't being debated here, but removing the range to enable this inherent burst is just...silly.

 

I don't use HO/HtL to chase a sorc, just pull him in, separate him from team support. Force them to bubble, apply sticky and assault plasitque during bubble to detonate afterwards, unload your cell burst and sc to burst him down with battle focus.

 

Limiting range against snipers? Against a sniper your ranged options aren't admirable anyways, trying to compare PT ranged attacks to snipers is just stupid. LoS, HtL close the distance and burn him.

 

SC damage is not the issue lol. It's the ICD, it's ridiculously off base from where it was when it was created as a lvl 51 ability in RotHC.

 

That type of AP burst isn't being debated here, but removing the range to enable this inherent burst is just...silly.

 

How would limiting range... limit the burst? Sticky grenade, Assault platique, Hammer shots, and HiB. (Am I missing one? Not ingame atm.) Of those two could really be considered burst abilities. Only one of which had it's range upped to 30m. VGs haven't had this range since 1.2 all the way until 3.0 and for good reason. There really is no reason to revert it back. You aren't going to burst people from 30m... if you think you can then maybe the Merc forum is the place for you.

Edited January 16, 2015 by LanceCorporalDan

[LanceCorporalDan]

This is of course only if you reduce the range on attacks. Some defensives would also help if you force PTs into the fray with melee.

 

PT/VG are not a melee class and should not be restricted to melee just because people cant handle kiting.

 

Agreed.

 

And no they are not melee, but they are also not ranged, we tread a very thin wire and I think the 10-15m range is suitable.

[DethlaHadyn]

 

 

 

How would limiting range... limit the burst?

 

It wouldn't. That's the whole point of some arguments going around about how by limiting the range that AP currently has in 3.0, it will help fix things, and disagree with that sentiment. Once again, if there was to be any adjustments to AP, I'd say that if they looked at reducing some base damage on Energy Burst and yes even Shoulder Cannon ( I've done over 14k with shoulder cannon alone), and swapped it out by increasing retractable blade inclusive, you'd see the AP Powertech would still retain all of the current 3.0 gameplay... aaand keep all damage potential.

 

So, you'd still have to get in melee range for the blade/gut, but would still have long ranged options. It's not about having PT long ranged options better than other classes long ranged abilities, it's about having them...period. You don't think that's important?

 

There's better ways to tone down the upfront burst than to simply switch the SC cooldown. Once again, the self healing options would be gimped. I don't understand how someone who plays a PT, could actually request something so stupid, like, at all.

 

I don't know how many times I need to repeat them, but I'll keep stating options like these constructively, because the "wolves are howlin' for nerfs..." It's like half of the people in the powertech/vanguard forums don't even play one...

[DethlaHadyn]

we tread a very thin wire and I think the 10-15m range is suitable.

 

I don't care what you think, but I do think that you're drunk.

[LanceCorporalDan]

 

It wouldn't. That's the whole point of some arguments going around about how by limiting the range that AP currently has in 3.0, it will help fix things, and disagree with that sentiment. Once again, if there was to be any adjustments to AP, I'd say that if they looked at reducing some base damage on Energy Burst and yes even Shoulder Cannon ( I've done over 14k with shoulder cannon alone), and swapped it out by increasing retractable blade inclusive, you'd see the AP Powertech would still retain all of the current 3.0 gameplay... aaand keep all damage potential.

 

So, you'd still have to get in melee range for the blade/gut, but would still have long ranged options. It's not about having PT long ranged options better than other classes long ranged abilities, it's about having them...period. You don't think that's important?

 

There's better ways to tone down the upfront burst than to simply switch the SC cooldown. Once again, the self healing options would be gimped. I don't understand how someone who plays a PT, could actually request something so stupid, like, at all.

 

I don't know how many times I need to repeat them, but I'll keep stating options like these constructively, because the "wolves are howlin' for nerfs..." It's like half of the people in the powertech/vanguard forums don't even play one...

 

No I don't think it's important it was never important before now and it isn't now. Any competent PvPer can perfrom just as well without it. I've mained a VG since launch so don't question what I know about it. 30m range is just unnecessary and unwarranted.

Edited January 17, 2015 by LanceCorporalDan

[LanceCorporalDan]

I don't care what you think, but I do think that you're drunk.

 

Really? We've always been a class that performed best within the 10-4m range, now with the utility it's upped to 15-4m. 30m is unnecessary.

 

I never asked if your cared what I think, but it seems you do if you take the time out of your day to respond.

 

Lmao, personal attacks now... I'm trying to have a respectable conversation but you can't seem to handle it. Yeah we're done here. Not saying your suggestions are entirely without merit, but we are just disagreeing on certain points and I doubt that will change so I'll leave it at that point.

Edited January 17, 2015 by LanceCorporalDan