Unbalanced AOE

[MysticGryph]

So let me get this straight. When you nerfed rage this was what happened:

 

You make it so you have to have a primary target to use smash in one update.

 

You then nerf the damage smash does in another (3.0)

 

...while at the same time making a new AOE attack for VENGEANCE which not only doesn't need a primary target, but also does very similar damage to rage smash, and also applies DOTS?!?

 

Yeah. Fix that please.

Edited December 26, 2014 by MysticGryph

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

You make it so you have to have a primary target to use smash in one update.

 

This has been undone if you had bothered to actually play the game

 

You then nerf the damage smash does in another (3.0)

 

Focused Burst can hit very hard as its single target replacement

 

...while at the same time making a new AOE attack for VENGEANCE which not only doesn't need a primary target, but also does very similar damage to rage smash, and also applies DOTS?!?

 

Smash is iconic to the Rage tree, replacing it doesn't make sense.

Just because Vengeance got Vengeful Slam,does not mean that Vengeful Slam hits harder than Smash, it doesn't work that way since they are different trees.

 

To elaborate, Ruffian Scoundrel got a Backblast replacement with Point Blank Shot. Simply because PBS is newer, it does not mean it hits harder than a Scrapper's Backblast, since Scrapper gets lots of talents to buff Backblast, just as Rage gets talents to buff Smash

Edited December 27, 2014 by Cotlu-Hunlon

[waterboytkd]

So let me get this straight. When you nerfed rage this was what happened:

 

You make it so you have to have a primary target to use smash in one update.

 

You then nerf the damage smash does in another (3.0)

 

...while at the same time making a new AOE attack for VENGEANCE which not only doesn't need a primary target, but also does very similar damage to rage smash, and also applies DOTS?!?

 

Yeah. Fix that please.

 

Before getting angry, you should have done some research. Smash no longer requires a target, and gets all the damage benefits available in the discipline (autocrit, 15% from singularity/destruction, etc.).

 

Though it won't hit for 9-10k like it used to be able to do, it still hits for "full effect" in PvP now. Which is fine, because now we have Raging Burst, which hits for what Smash used to hit, and doesn't have the drawback of being affected by AoE damage reduction.

 

Rage gets to choose, based off the situation, whether to do very high single target burst damage, or good AoE damage.

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

... Raging Burst, which hits for what Smash used to hit, and doesn't have the drawback of being affected by AoE damage reduction.

 

This is a very good point

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Quit your whining, Smash is in a MUCH better position than it was in 2.10... It now has Raging Burst AND Furious Strike, both of which are pretty OP abilities that are really useful. Vengeful Slam is nice though, hits for around 7k and spreads DoT's which is nice. it does out-damage Smash (I'm 90% sure about that).

[Marqhill]

When I play focus I never use smash anymore unless I'm trying to stop a cap in an AOE. Frankly there are much better abilities. Focus on your single target damage and keep it moving. The single target burst is why you should be playing focus/rage anymore. If your don't adapt then you will die. That's really it.

[Manweth]

I think you guys properly killed him

 

Don't think he's coming back.

[veSev]

I think you guys properly killed him

 

Don't think he's coming back.

 

I like the OPs signature.....

[Luckygunslinger]

Quit your whining, Smash is in a MUCH better position than it was in 2.10... It now has Raging Burst AND Furious Strike, both of which are pretty OP abilities that are really useful. Vengeful Slam is nice though, hits for around 7k and spreads DoT's which is nice. it does out-damage Smash (I'm 90% sure about that).

 

Vengeful Slam and Vengeance AOE as a whole has a higher and more powerful potential than Rage, and I feel that should not be the case. What you get with Rage is consistent AOE damage, never having to rely on a crit to finish something off or burst it down, though when Smash got nerfed, that kind of gimped the effectiveness of Rage as a whole, reducing it primarily into a single target burst spec which is probably what they were going for.

 

So we have.... 6k hits with a buffed Smash, eight targets, done. Vengeful Slam can go either way, 4k to 7k which if you're lucky will out DPS Smash alone. Secondly, DoT Spread, it's very tight due to the fact our DoT's suck in duration bar Shatter and even then the damage of said abilities is terrible as always. So if you manage to get all 3 DoT's rolling on 8 Targets while sweeping slashing them, in turn making them take 50% more damage from said ability versus the straight 25% following the Smash, which you can't do too much because you'll need Rage to use Crush and/or Obliterate, the damage comparison isn't even fair really. Vengeance is built to handle AOE a lot better now, it's sad really.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Luckygunslinger

[DethlaHadyn]

Vengeful Slam and Vengeance AOE as a whole has a higher and more powerful potential than Rage, and I feel that should not be the case. What you get with Rage is consistent AOE damage, never having to rely on a crit to finish something off or burst it down, though when Smash got nerfed, that kind of gimped the effectiveness of Rage as a whole, reducing it primarily into a single target burst spec which is probably what they were going for.

 

So we have.... 6k hits with a buffed Smash, eight targets, done. Vengeful Slam can go either way, 4k to 7k which if you're lucky will out DPS Smash alone. Secondly, DoT Spread, it's very tight due to the fact our DoT's suck in duration bar Shatter and even then the damage of said abilities is terrible as always. So if you manage to get all 3 DoT's rolling on 8 Targets while sweeping slashing them, in turn making them take 50% more damage from said ability versus the straight 25% following the Smash, which you can't do too much because you'll need Rage to use Crush and/or Obliterate, the damage comparison isn't even fair really. Vengeance is built to handle AOE a lot better now, it's sad really.

 

Pffft.

 

Who cares how you feel? This is 3.0 my boy. Rage dps is in no way gimped or suffering...at all. Go cry somewhere else about how the class' abilities have been altered. The rest of us really like the options we have with our Jugs.

[Luckygunslinger]

Pffft.

 

Who cares how you feel? This is 3.0 my boy. Rage dps is in no way gimped or suffering...at all. Go cry somewhere else about how the class' abilities have been altered. The rest of us really like the options we have with our Jugs.

 

 

I'm not your boy, mate. Secondly if you knew who I was, you'd know I actually enjoy Rage, probably more than you and love how it's performing, but even an avid lover of a spec can see the flaws and can outline them. Crying? Please, it's not crying to look at the issues of a spec and discuss it, and it's delusional and childish to think so.

 

Also go cry somewhere else? Where else is there to discuss Juggernaut? This is the Juggernaut Forum my boy.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Luckygunslinger

[DethlaHadyn]

it's sad really.

 

 

Hmm, forgive me then for interpreting this as anything other than crying.

 

 

 

Moving on, I'll ask you if you have parsed both specs. What has anyone found better/worse between Vengeance and Rage from a PvE standpoint?

[wadecounty]

Rage is going to do better burst AOE damage than Vengeance point blank because the guaranteed crit on Smash is worth more than the average damage of Vengeful slam. Vengeance will always do more sustained. Also you're ignoring that Rage also has +5% overall damage after their smashes

 

Now, for the new ops, most AOE phases are going to contain adds that have enough HP that Vengeance will always pull ahead. However, another thing to consider is Rage will always burst much more reliably and easily than Vengeance on single target, and not having to rely on Ravage is a lifesaver on a number of these fights with how movement heavy the new ops are.

 

So no, I don't really think the 2 specs are unbalanced, each have their advantages and disadvantages. I do think for Rage, a reduction of the cost for Sweeping Slash by 1 would probably be a fair adjustment to bring their sustained AOE up a notch. Also Rage now has a complete lack of defensive advantages over Vengeance (heal on stunbreak and reduced cooldown on ED are now utilities, passive Force DR is removed), so adding a small passive to the Rage tree like the Force DR might be fair, something to give them a niche instead of just having Vengeance more survivable in all situations.

Edited December 31, 2014 by wadecounty

[Luckygunslinger]

Hmm, forgive me then for interpreting this as anything other than crying.

 

 

 

Moving on, I'll ask you if you have parsed both specs. What has anyone found better/worse between Vengeance and Rage from a PvE standpoint?

 

Right....

 

I have parsed both yes. Not many things, the two excel in their own areas, one for burst, other for sustained. How ever in certain areas Vigilance pulls a head for example in the area of DTPS, it can take more damage purely from Endure Pain alone. Rage now has no built in passive defenses except a 3% DR for Shii-cho.

 

Beyond the on demand burst and eventually better AOE once the averages out do that of Vigilances DoT Spread + Sweeping Slashing burning targets, Rage doesn't have much benefit over Vigilance beyond the fact it's a lot more mobile which made Vigilance an utter nightmare for things like Nightmare Dread Council. Rage used to have a stronger Execute but now you need to relly on Endless Rage to make your execute viable.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Luckygunslinger

[Fallen_Dragon]

I've been playing this game since early access and it seems that lately the amount of hate for those playing the same class is getting worse. I'm an old vengeance/vigilance and immortal player, I played rage/focus for a bit but always preferred vengeance/vigilance when doing dps. I remember after 2.0 when the Jugg/Guardian ACs were getting bashed on by the shadow/sin crew that was screaming for our tanking to be nerfed, the Jugg/Guardian community stuck up for one another and helped each other. Lately though it seems that the Jugg/Guardian community has become nothing but a bunch of QQers screaming for nerf and slapping each other in the face with their epeens. Does this bother anyone else?

[Cortimi]

Moving on, I'll ask you if you have parsed both specs. What has anyone found better/worse between Vengeance and Rage from a PvE standpoint?

 

You do realize this is the guy who wrote the Dulfy guides for 3.0 DPS Jugg, right?

[DethlaHadyn]

You do realize this is the guy who wrote the Dulfy guides for 3.0 DPS Jugg, right?

 

 

hehe, I don't use dulfy, sorry. I'll have to go check it out.

 

 

p.s. I think you've got something on your nose, you might want to wipe off.