Why do the Jedi seem to be underestimated so often?

[dcaleb]

It isn't like Republic characters don't also end up cutting down hordes of faceless no name sith over the course of the game. Oh, and some of sith that technically have names but aren't really that important. Edited December 28, 2014 by dcaleb

[Kyrrant]

It isn't like Republic characters don't also end up cutting down hordes of faceless no name sith over the course of the game. Oh, and some of sith that technically have names but aren't really that important.

 

True, and that can be a problem with Pub-side RP, but there's two differences:

 

1: The use of Jedi as disposable villain-cred, only there to get smacked around or killed by a new evil villain, is common in Star Wars, and seldom done with Sith. It makes the attitudes about weak Jedi much more pervasive, thanks to hack writing shortcuts.

 

2: Minorly trained, flash-in-the-pan Sith that can get taken down fairly easily is easier to distinguish from the serious Darths, because the Darths tend to have more extravagent outfits and flashier powers. ****** Jedi sometimes have flashy powers, but they also tend towards conservative outfits.

 

Also, the notion of sending a dozen half-trained whelps into the fire in order to see who survives... that makes sense for the Sith, and is just puzzling for the Jedi, which makes the difference between the Sith Cannon Fodder and the Real Sith much more obvious than the difference between the Jedi Cannon Fodder and the Jedi Masters.

 

Again, the problem I'm pointing out isn't unique to Jedi, Sith are indeed hit by it. But Jedi just get it a lot worse.

[Leaveshill]

The average sith will always be stronger than the average jedi.

It's much, much simpler to become a jedi. The trials are like "school"; preparing you for the hard life.

Sith trials exist to root out the unworthy, and therefore ;

Sith - quality

Jedi-quanity.

Also, the dark side (while it does ruin body and in some cases the mind of the user) is a shortcut to power as well, making any jedi that "converts" to the sith stronger than he ever was. The sith can use all aspects of the force, while the Jedi are bound to use the ligh side only.

Therefore, Sith are labelled as stronger because they are in fact stronger on an average basis. And Malgus is obviously stronger than Satele. It doesn't matter that Satele is strong as well, 2v1 win doesn't count for much. She also did get beat in their duel.(Alderaan)

[RodneyMcNeely]

Here's what I don't get. The Jedi have existed as an order for roughly 10,000 years by the time "The Phantom Menace" rolls around.

 

They were founded as an order of warrior-mystics who drew on traditions from ALL OVER THE GALAXY.

 

For those of you who have never practiced martial arts before, here's the deal. You will NOT become a capable weapon master without first mastering your own body. To assume that someone who's skilled enough TO USE A LIGHTSABER suddenly becomes chump change without one is just crazy. And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't unarmed martial arts the BASIS for lightsaber combat?

 

But even if that's not the case, Jedi are - above all - pragmatic. If mixed martial artists on boring mundane Earth constantly refine their styles (adopting what works and rejecting what doesn't) why in the world would you assume the guardians of peace and justice over an entire galaxy wouldn't do the same? Incorporating Teras Kasi? Check. Echani arts? Check. And any one of millions of fighting styles that would be even remotely useful? Check, check, ad infinitum.

 

And it's not like the Lightsaber forms are a flip-book of 8 or 9 cute moves that one dabbles in when they're not busy doing something else. These are entire martial, mystical, and mental philosophies that these practitioners are steeped in from the time they're able to walk until they day they die.

 

Anyone trained as a Jedi would be an overwhelming enemy, nearly impossible to beat on even footing. Now, imagine how deadly a practioner would be when his or her system of learning has had 10,000 YEARS OF REFINEMENT AND AN ENTIRE GALAXY OF KNOWLEDGE (connected by the HoloNet) TO DRAW UPON.

 

Let that sink in for a second.

 

While I can see the Sith having access to the same sorts of advantages, here's where I think the Dark Side throws a wrench into the works. The Sith are CONSTANTLY parasitizing their own order. They build it up, they fight, they burn it down. There's got to be a LOT of knowledge lost in there. Even with the Rule of Two (and the assumption of an unbroken chain of knowledge passed from Master to Apprentice) you STILL have a power-hungry individual KILLING HIS/HER ONE SINGLE SOURCE OF INFORMATION ABOUT HIS/HER TRADITION.

 

You don't get that with the Jedi. EVERYTHING they do is built around the sharing of knowledge and maintaining connections with all things within the framework of the Force. It only stands to reason that connection would extend to the very arts (martial and otherwise) that make them what they are. Unlike their Sith counterparts, they don't hoard knowledge, THEY SHARE IT.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that the Jedi are like a rising tide that lifts all boats, while the Sith are the crew of two that's constantly trying to drown one another. I just don't see that self-defeating feedback loop coming out on top of the genuine pursuit of perfection that is the Jedi way.

 

/shrug

Edited January 3, 2015 by RodneyMcNeely

[Spetulhu]

Anyone trained as a Jedi would be an overwhelming enemy, nearly impossible to beat on even footing. Now, imagine how deadly a practioner would be when his or her system of learning has had 10,000 YEARS OF REFINEMENT AND AN ENTIRE GALAXY OF KNOWLEDGE (connected by the HoloNet) TO DRAW UPON.

 

That's also 10K years of doing it like the teacher says instead of how you think it should work. Many martial arts schools get caught in their past even here on boring Earth, practicing armored combat or swords in an age when it's totally useless. I recall one particular karate school uses ridiculously wide leg stances today, not because it helps but because the founder exaggerated his moves when teaching. But tradition. We've done it like this for a hundred years so who are you to come say it's wrong? Now imagine 10K years of tradition, and lighsabers and the Force that makes it still work against 99% of opponents.

[magicallypuzzled]

In every outing against Satele, Malgus has always come out on top to the point that Satele has needed outside assistance to win. Furthermore, the only time she's ever shown defeating Sith is when she is beating on scrubs, yet Malgus is shown killing at least two prominent and powerful Jedi.

 

Maul lost to Sidious cause Sidious was more powerful. Sidious was toying with Windu, as evidenced by the simple fact of someone who was so "weak" to Windu he certainly all the sudden regains his power out of no where. Sidious was being manipulative enough to convince Anakin to try and spare him. Again, the premise that Windu overpowered Sidious seems misguided because if Sidious defeated Windu, Anakin would not have chosen Sidious over Windu, and further more Sidious would not have been able to claim that the Jedi attacked him.

 

 

 

Uhh, Maul killed one of the greatest Jedi saberists of all time; Qui-Gon Jin. He did it without even breaking a sweat while Qui-Gon was having difficulty. In fact the entire final victory that Obi-Wan gets over Maul is just plain ridiculous considering Maul had him beat hands down as well. So really, what are you arguing other than ignoring key points of your facts?

wait since when was either qui-gon or maul impressive at anything sword related? 0.0

[RodneyMcNeely]

That's also 10K years of doing it like the teacher says instead of how you think it should work. Many martial arts schools get caught in their past even here on boring Earth, practicing armored combat or swords in an age when it's totally useless. I recall one particular karate school uses ridiculously wide leg stances today, not because it helps but because the founder exaggerated his moves when teaching. But tradition. We've done it like this for a hundred years so who are you to come say it's wrong? Now imagine 10K years of tradition, and lighsabers and the Force that makes it still work against 99% of opponents.

With respect, I don't see that being the case at all. Even at the height of its power, the Jedi numbered only a few tens of thousands of individuals, and the Order has always been tasked with the jobs that no one else could do.

 

There's no way the Jedi Order has ever been a cloistered "ivory tower" group of people. They have hyperdrive-capable starships. They get sent places. They're constantly having to test their practice in the field under ever-changing circumstances.

 

We're talking about a group of people that is constantly on the front lines, following the will of the Force. No way that leads to stagnant traditionalism.

 

IMHO.

Edited January 4, 2015 by RodneyMcNeely

[Spetulhu]

With respect, I don't see that being the case at all. They're constantly having to test their practice in the field under ever-changing circumstances.

 

But how many of their tests actually take place against someone that can't be defeated with the Force and a few well-placed lightsaber cuts? The Jedi ARE fearsome foes even if they use millennia-old saber schools. Why change something that works?

[RodneyMcNeely]

That's a fair point, but I think it assumes that everyone else is going to remain stagnant. If the real world is anything to go by (I know, bad idea for a fantasy game, LOL) then military tactics, combat instruction, and tech are going to be upgrading themselves constantly. I can't see the Jedi Order not doing the same thing.

 

Then again, Star Wars DOES have that nasty little habit of not changing a whole lot in thousands of years.

 

TANGENT INCOMING: Okay, am I the only one still upset that SWTOR's art style was all "Empire Strikes Back" and NOT "Tales of the Jedi"?

 

I am bitter, you hear me? BITTER.

 

Edited January 4, 2015 by RodneyMcNeely

[Kaisernick]

In every outing against Satele, Malgus has always come out on top to the point that Satele has needed outside assistance to win. Furthermore, the only time she's ever shown defeating Sith is when she is beating on scrubs, yet Malgus is shown killing at least two prominent and powerful Jedi.

And how is her master or the guy holding the temple prominent or powerful?

[Spetulhu]

That's a fair point, but I think it assumes that everyone else is going to remain stagnant. If the real world is anything to go by then military tactics, combat instruction, and tech are going to be upgrading themselves constantly. I can't see the Jedi Order not doing the same thing.

 

Not changing a lot in thousands of years is just part of the puzzle here. The Jedi will surely try to keep up with modern military doctrine so they're not surprised by a new weapon, but they're not an army.

 

Armies and ships care little about one man with a lightsaber. He's not stopping a Star Destroyer (without heroically boarding it like in the game), much less a fleet. And even if he can cut down a hundred men or more without taking damage he's not stopping an army intent on taking or destroying a city. It's a waste of his talents even. Jedi usually operate on smaller scale but with bigger prizes - they negotiate with leaders to stop a war, or in extreme situations try to take out that leader so more sane successors can stop the war.

[Darkelefantos]

And how is her master or the guy holding the temple prominent or powerful?

Satele's master was Battlemaster of the Jedi Order (a position later taken by the likes of the Hero of Tython and Kyle Katarn), which speaks for itself, and yet Ven Zallow who was killed during the Sacking of Coruscant by Malgus was regarded as the latter's most famous kill, which also says quite a bit.

[RodneyMcNeely]

Not changing a lot in thousands of years is just part of the puzzle here. The Jedi will surely try to keep up with modern military doctrine so they're not surprised by a new weapon, but they're not an army.

 

Armies and ships care little about one man with a lightsaber. He's not stopping a Star Destroyer (without heroically boarding it like in the game), much less a fleet. And even if he can cut down a hundred men or more without taking damage he's not stopping an army intent on taking or destroying a city. It's a waste of his talents even. Jedi usually operate on smaller scale but with bigger prizes - they negotiate with leaders to stop a war, or in extreme situations try to take out that leader so more sane successors can stop the war.

Fantastic points. I wholeheartedly concur.

 

Of course, I'm slightly offended because I really like to think of MYYYYYY character as an army on two feet, and you're breaking my groove here.

 

LOL!

Edited January 5, 2015 by RodneyMcNeely

[Rhyltran]

Satele's master was Battlemaster of the Jedi Order (a position later taken by the likes of the Hero of Tython and Kyle Katarn), which speaks for itself, and yet Ven Zallow who was killed during the Sacking of Coruscant by Malgus was regarded as the latter's most famous kill, which also says quite a bit.

 

Not to mention in the deceived novel of all the people who died at the Courscant temple the Jedi tried to CONVINCE themselves that he wasn't among the dead. They were shocked at his death. Only his apprentice accepted that fact. If the entire order was shocked at his death and many refused to believe that he actually died. That says a lot as well. The Jedi couldn't believe he died.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Not changing a lot in thousands of years is just part of the puzzle here. The Jedi will surely try to keep up with modern military doctrine so they're not surprised by a new weapon, but they're not an army.

 

Armies and ships care little about one man with a lightsaber. He's not stopping a Star Destroyer (without heroically boarding it like in the game), much less a fleet. And even if he can cut down a hundred men or more without taking damage he's not stopping an army intent on taking or destroying a city. It's a waste of his talents even. Jedi usually operate on smaller scale but with bigger prizes - they negotiate with leaders to stop a war, or in extreme situations try to take out that leader so more sane successors can stop the war.

 

Sith = Warrior society

Jedi = non-Warrior society

 

That says a LOT.

 

Just look at RL today : Those who have an "killer instict" always laugh over those who haven't - and they usually suceed, too (Hooligans, my prime example, David Nivel, for example, the French policeman who had been beaten almost to death by - cynically put - bloodlusty Holligans. Outside of Germany and France, this case is nearly unknown). An example is the war in Yugoslavia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars Meanwhile the European Union was trying to negociate, the conflict parties laughed into their faces and used every possible time exploit by doing as if they were indeed giving in into negotiations to just carry on killing thousands of people.

 

Most infamous is the Massacre of Srebrenica : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

This is similar to what Nazis did to other ethinc groups.

 

The Yogoslavia War is imho the model for what happened on Coruscant.

Edited January 5, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[RodneyMcNeely]

Sith = Warrior society

Jedi = non-Warrior society

 

That says a LOT.

 

Just look at RL today : Those who have an "killer instict" always laugh over those who haven't - and they usually suceed, too (Hooligans, my prime example, David Nivel, for example, the French policeman who had been beaten almost to death by - cynically put - bloodlusty Holligans. Outside of Germany and France, this case is nearly unknown). An example is the war in Yugoslavia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars Meanwhile the European Union was trying to negociate, the conflict parties laughed into their faces and used every possible time exploit by doing as if they were indeed giving in into negotiations to just carry on killing thousands of people.

 

Most infamous is the Massacre of Srebrenica : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

This is similar to what Nazis did to other ethinc groups.

 

The Yogoslavia War is imho the model for what happened on Coruscant.

That's a very good point. But as an exercise physiologist, I have to say that killer instinct has nothing to do with human performance. Of course that's putting aside the evolutionary question of whether or not the two go hand in hand; I'm not an evolutionary biologist, so I'll defer that to the biology students here.

 

WARNING: I'm going to ramble for a bit here, but hopefully there's a point in all this. I apologize in advance for the circuitious route.

 

Here's the thing, though. It's pretty clear that humans are a pro-social species with violent proclivities. And new research is shedding light on what happens when members of our species fail to develop a conscience. We call these people psychopaths (or sociopaths if you prefer the broader term). I'm going to keep it fast and dirty here, but our morality is definitely predicated on a continuum that states that more empathy = good, and that less empathy = evil. Broadly speaking.

 

However, when it comes to physical performance, speed, strength, agility operate completely independently of one's leaning toward violence. Let's face it, organic life is extremely fragile. It doesn't matter how fast, strong, or well-trained you are. A quarter-inch cut to the carotid artery and you're done.

 

There's a reason you see stories in the news about trained members of the military, law enforcement, etc. being murdered, battered, or sexually assaulted. We wonder how someone with that level of training (and the warrior instincts that go with it) can become a victim, but it's frighteningly common.

 

I am not - REPEAT, AM NOT - saying that people who are more violent than the norm aren't more likely to gravitate toward high-risk professions such as athletics, law enforcement, finance, and so forth. I think any chance to dominate others is something many of these testosterone-rich folks would go for.

 

What I AM saying, though, is that there's not a massive range of physical performance parameters within the human species when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. I mean, yeah, there's a big difference between being able to bench press 100 lbs. as opposed to 300 lbs. But those differences suddenly don't mean a whole lot when you realize that a typically healthy chimpanzee male can bench press roughly half a ton.

 

I guess my point is that killer instinct makes you a MORE WILLING fighter, but not necessarily a BETTER fighter. And those who train in the combat arts might well argue that a cooler head will take you farther than a raging fire.

 

I guess that's where I find the differences between the Jedi and the Sith (Light and Dark Side notwithstanding). I figure the Jedi would live longer and gain more benefit from training since they're a lot less likely to lose their tempers and bite off more than they can chew. There's a reason we throw around the old adage "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword".

 

Okay, sorry for the wall of text. I hope it made at least some nominal sense.

Edited January 5, 2015 by RodneyMcNeely

[Olteron]

Maul was not a true sith. He was a goon plain and simple. Palpatines master would have killed him had sidious taken an apprentice. But he acknowledged that sidious was only training him in combat skills and limited force training to make him a weapon to use against the jedi. He only beat qui gon by overwhelming him with attacks from a weapon unfamiliar to qui gon and choosing the place of combat that would give him the advantage. You think it was an accident they fought in that tiny room with one exit?

[Jrr_hypernova]

Evan's was the one I was referring to and have you looked thru the comments on it? It seems that Maul and Zannah have the most rabid fan base with them espousing basically that they could easily defeat any Jedi who ever existed, heck the Maul fans a lot of them even argue that he should have been able to defeat Sidious.

 

Maul? The guy who was almost beat by that second rate mandolorean in the clone wars? Lol

[Leaveshill]

As stated; Maul is nothing but Palpatine's weapon to bring chaos and fear to the Jedi. He never intended for him to stay alive longer than he had to, but he did want him to succeed on Naboo. Other than that, he didn't really care. It's highly likely that Sidious was actually planning for Anakin already then, as Anakin was(likely) created by Sidious's master's "way of creating life". Maul was a pawn, like Dooku. Maul was cool and all but in the end he's just a small pawn. Much smaller than Dooku, and he's nothing special. He's the least powerful Sith in the movies, and he's the most irrelevant.

That's a very good point. But as an exercise physiologist, I have to say that killer instinct has nothing to do with human performance. Of course that's putting aside the evolutionary question of whether or not the two go hand in hand; I'm not an evolutionary biologist, so I'll defer that to the biology students here.

 

WARNING: I'm going to ramble for a bit here, but hopefully there's a point in all this. I apologize in advance for the circuitious route.

 

Here's the thing, though. It's pretty clear that humans are a pro-social species with violent proclivities. And new research is shedding light on what happens when members of our species fail to develop a conscience. We call these people psychopaths (or sociopaths if you prefer the broader term). I'm going to keep it fast and dirty here, but our morality is definitely predicated on a continuum that states that more empathy = good, and that less empathy = evil. Broadly speaking.

 

However, when it comes to physical performance, speed, strength, agility operate completely independently of one's leaning toward violence. Let's face it, organic life is extremely fragile. It doesn't matter how fast, strong, or well-trained you are. A quarter-inch cut to the carotid artery and you're done.

 

There's a reason you see stories in the news about trained members of the military, law enforcement, etc. being murdered, battered, or sexually assaulted. We wonder how someone with that level of training (and the warrior instincts that go with it) can become a victim, but it's frighteningly common.

 

I am not - REPEAT, AM NOT - saying that people who are more violent than the norm aren't more likely to gravitate toward high-risk professions such as athletics, law enforcement, finance, and so forth. I think any chance to dominate others is something many of these testosterone-rich folks would go for.

 

What I AM saying, though, is that there's not a massive range of physical performance parameters within the human species when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. I mean, yeah, there's a big difference between being able to bench press 100 lbs. as opposed to 300 lbs. But those differences suddenly don't mean a whole lot when you realize that a typically healthy chimpanzee male can bench press roughly half a ton.

 

I guess my point is that killer instinct makes you a MORE WILLING fighter, but not necessarily a BETTER fighter. And those who train in the combat arts might well argue that a cooler head will take you farther than a raging fire.

 

I guess that's where I find the differences between the Jedi and the Sith (Light and Dark Side notwithstanding). I figure the Jedi would live longer and gain more benefit from training since they're a lot less likely to lose their tempers and bite off more than they can chew. There's a reason we throw around the old adage "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword".

 

Okay, sorry for the wall of text. I hope it made at least some nominal sense.

Nice text, but I think that you're a bit mistaken. More willing fighters often, but not always ,fight more. Fighting more gives more experience. A guardian of peace, (Jedi), will spend as much time learning to be a diplomat as he does fighting. And training for war isn't as effective as going through war, obviously. The best fighers are determined by a number of factors, not just willingness to kill. But if we take two twins, and train one as a Jedi and one as Sith, since they're children, then the one trained as Sith will most likely win the duel. The Jedi twin will have too much knowledge that's irrelevant. Rituals like "Try to lift this stone", even though the stone cannot be lifted, to prove that everything aren't meant to be accomplished. Such stuff have it's uses, sure. But the warrior-sith won't use time on such. They'll use time on philosophy as well, but not all of this stuff. They don't even train their young ones for battle until they're "mature" enough, which is very clever of course. But imagine how the "pure" warrior, that has been trained since birth, gets a "head start" then. He has been trained since he was old enough, the other since he was mature enough. His maturity won't matter in a fight.

 

Feeding of emotions aren't the same as being a slave to them. Of course being calm is better than going berserk, but a clever mind will always understand that you should fuel your power with emotion, not the other way around. The emotion should be controlled, yet used. It's a way to fuel your dark side strenght, but it doesn't require that you go insane.

 

And ; I liked your last quote. And it's of course true that the life as a Jedi is much more likely to be long, as the Sith live a more dangerous life.

[Kyrrant]

As stated; Maul is nothing but Palpatine's weapon to bring chaos and fear to the Jedi. He never intended for him to stay alive longer than he had to, but he did want him to succeed on Naboo. Other than that, he didn't really care. It's highly likely that Sidious was actually planning for Anakin already then, as Anakin was(likely) created by Sidious's master's "way of creating life".

 

I'm... going to assume this is some weird ***, EU bollocks like Hand-Clone-Luke or the Emperor maybe coming back from the dead or stuff like that, because... ugh, if that was Palpatine's actual plan, then it was the most insane, convoluted, round-about plan in existence.

 

Palpatine's always come off more as someone that plays for position, plays for advantages, and strikes once there's a valuable target in place. He doesn't have a grand, 500 step plan towards galactic domination, those plans get wrecked too quickly. Anakin showed up, and Palpatine worked to get his trust and allegiance.

 

Really, the Clone Wars was his master stroke. He uses the war to devastate the galaxy, leading to a general desire for peace at any cost. If the Separatists won, he's their leader, he'd be able to use that as a way to control the galaxy eventually... but he kept the deck stacked in the Republic's favor.

 

And yet, his plans came very, very close to evaporating, because Windu was enough of a ****** to go toe to toe with Sideous and (most likely, I know some think Sideous was just play-acting weakness to turn Anakin, but I think it much more likely that he needed a breather then), if Windu had just struck, or Anakin had trusted Windu more, Sideous' entire plan would have evaporated.

 

Not dissing the Emperor at all, mind you. Xanatos Speed Chess is a hell of a gameplan, but Palpatine played it like a champ.

[Leaveshill]

I'm... going to assume this is some weird ***, EU bollocks like Hand-Clone-Luke or the Emperor maybe coming back from the dead or stuff like that, because... ugh, if that was Palpatine's actual plan, then it was the most insane, convoluted, round-about plan in existence.

 

Palpatine's always come off more as someone that plays for position, plays for advantages, and strikes once there's a valuable target in place. He doesn't have a grand, 500 step plan towards galactic domination, those plans get wrecked too quickly. Anakin showed up, and Palpatine worked to get his trust and allegiance.

 

Really, the Clone Wars was his master stroke. He uses the war to devastate the galaxy, leading to a general desire for peace at any cost. If the Separatists won, he's their leader, he'd be able to use that as a way to control the galaxy eventually... but he kept the deck stacked in the Republic's favor.

 

And yet, his plans came very, very close to evaporating, because Windu was enough of a ****** to go toe to toe with Sideous and (most likely, I know some think Sideous was just play-acting weakness to turn Anakin, but I think it much more likely that he needed a breather then), if Windu had just struck, or Anakin had trusted Windu more, Sideous' entire plan would have evaporated.

 

Not dissing the Emperor at all, mind you. Xanatos Speed Chess is a hell of a gameplan, but Palpatine played it like a champ.

Well. Anakin never had a father, his mother states so. It says that he's created by Midi-chlorians, and a ritual (the one Plagueis discovered, that Palpatine mentions to Anakin in Revenge.)

 

And since they "knew" that Anakin was the chosen one, I can't see why he didn't plan to use him as well. They both knew about the "Chosen" one before the Jedi. "He had previously boasted about being able to create the Chosen One of Jedi prophecy,[10] as his Master had expected of him.[5] Now, he made it his priority to stop the boy from falling into the hands of the Jedi.[1]" - From Plagueis' wiki.

 

I can't see why this wasn't the case. Plagueis even knew about Maul ("Not wanting the Jedi to train him, he planned to have Darth Maul kill Qui-Gon so as to prevent it.[1"). Maul was never a Sith Lord, he was a puppet in the two other's play. And Anakin was likely planned by Palpatine. And even if he wasn't, Maul was never anything but a servant that would be used and manipulated. That's the main thing, tbh. The Anakin part isn't "canon" anymore anyways, unless I'm mistaken

 

And Palpatine had a lot of big plans. He did after all plan the war, he didn't just take advtange of that. This was a huge plan, a 500-step plan if you will. It was planned to a) get the war going, preferably by getting in charge through a long conflict on Naboo. It was failed, but his "personal" link to naboo as a native caught him a lot of sympathy, which served well in the end. He then made Dooku his new servant, one that could work to keep the serpartists in line and help their cause, creating a huge war. As you said, the clone wars. And yes, he might have been stopped by Windu. But we don't know that, but it's a possibility.

 

Maybe he didn't plan for Anakin to be his apprentice, but the chosen one was created by his Master(most likely), even though it's not canon anymore, but the ritual is mentioned in Revenge, and even if it's not correct at all, and not canon; my main point was to discredit Maul anways, really.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Leaveshill

[Kyrrant]

Well. Anakin never had a father, his mother states so. It says that he's created by Midi-chlorians, and a ritual (the one Plagueis discovered, that Palpatine mentions to Anakin in Revenge.)

 

Yup, crazy EU bollocks.

 

For the record? I've always held it in my head that Shmi said that Anakin didn't have a father because........

 

...look. She's a slave. On Tatooine. It's not that hard to believe that she was being less literal and more metaphorical with it, because she doesn't want to think about the horrific actions that created this spark of happiness in her life.

 

But no, another instance of the EU taking reasonable explanations and saying "Screw that, lets make it as silly, nonsensical and weird as we can make it!" Like Han BSing Luke about how his ship is so fast it did the Kessel Run in a unit of distance, not time... nope, they can't just have that be a lie that Obi-Wan recognized in the film it has to be based on reality!

 

*sigh* ...why can't the EU leave well enough alone sometime....

 

*gets stabbed in the back by Clone Hand Luke*

[ColaWindstar]

I've always held it in my head that Shmi said that Anakin didn't have a father because........

 

...look. She's a slave. On Tatooine. It's not that hard to believe that she was being less literal and more metaphorical with it, because she doesn't want to think about the horrific actions that created this spark of happiness in her life.

 

 

Nice as that is, and while your second argument about the Kessel Run is supported by the original script, I think George Lucas actually did want Anakin to be immaculately conceived.

 

Because George Lucas is not have the genius most people give him credit for.

 

Funfact: if Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher weren't the actors they were, they would not have decided to adlib their own romance dialogue and sounded no better than Anakin and Padme.

[Excise]

Being egotistical is pretty much a hallmark of being Sith, so yeah, they're going to underestimate others.

[Leaveshill]

Yup, crazy EU bollocks.

 

For the record? I've always held it in my head that Shmi said that Anakin didn't have a father because........

 

...look. She's a slave. On Tatooine. It's not that hard to believe that she was being less literal and more metaphorical with it, because she doesn't want to think about the horrific actions that created this spark of happiness in her life.

 

But no, another instance of the EU taking reasonable explanations and saying "Screw that, lets make it as silly, nonsensical and weird as we can make it!" Like Han BSing Luke about how his ship is so fast it did the Kessel Run in a unit of distance, not time... nope, they can't just have that be a lie that Obi-Wan recognized in the film it has to be based on reality!

 

*sigh* ...why can't the EU leave well enough alone sometime....

 

*gets stabbed in the back by Clone Hand Luke*

 

Crazy stuff.

But as I said, I have little interest in that. The EU is often too insane for me, personally. It's pretty much irrelevant to me. No matter, the main theme I touched was Maul not being anything special, and that he's overrated for some reason. Idk why.

 

I just said that it made sense due to well, standing there in black and white. Doesn't make it "good" or "true", even. But again, it was about Maul in truth, and how he's not anything but a little pawn.