Why do the Jedi seem to be underestimated so often?

[Dacorianton]

Jedi>Sith

 

/thread

 

#JEDIBEBOMB #SITHNOMORE #LUCASHADTHEGOODGUYSWIN #SITHBECRAZY #LAWLS-AT-ARGUMENTS

[DougTbx]

Jedi>Sith

 

/thread

 

#JEDIBEBOMB #SITHNOMORE #LUCASHADTHEGOODGUYSWIN #SITHBECRAZY #LAWLS-AT-ARGUMENTS

 

And thank you for the wonderful, insightful contribution to the discussion there (yes being sarcastic there.) Seriously I'm not and have not argued that the Jedi are more powerful then the Sith as a whole or anything of the sort. What we have seen here in this thread is however what I was referring to and that is how some folks get all upset by basically any notion that any Sith could ever lose a battle with a Jedi unless those darn Jedi cheated somehow.

 

Silerspar going by your apparent POV Satelle never should have made it past those three Sith she plowed thru, or as you see it stumbled thru and they managed to slice themselves up on her weapon accidentally as she flailed about incompetently, because they are SITH and she is a weakling Jedi who can only get by due to her family name. Mind you I don't recall seeing them get back up and back into the fight, especially the one she clearly carved completely from shoulder to waist, but I'm sure at least the one she ham stringed from the look of it was just off screen walking it off for a minute then back into the fight.

 

Oh and I was referring to the one specific fight from the Maul comic story that you first referenced in your previous post, no arguing he bested Gin , I just disagree with the notion from the Maul fans that Maul was too much to handle for any Jedi *ever past or present* to handle in a one on one duel.

 

Most of the Jedi rank and file are not on the same level as Sith in terms of combat as their whole lives don't revolve around it they for the most part spent most of their times playing peace keeper/police. However in times of prolonged conflict that is not going to be the case all the time, the Jedi of TOR period the game takes place in are far more trained not only in battle but in dueling with other force users as opposed to Jedi after the Sith were thought extinct in the wake of the Battle of Rusaan and the reformation of the Republic and the Order neutered them for the most part.

Edited December 24, 2014 by DougTbx

[Kane_Ren]

Lolling at the Maul fanboys still. He got bisected by a padawan, therefore his *** was well and truly kicked. End of story. The bs EU tried a lame retconn because they cried so hard about it. Heck, even sidious thought him disposable. Now that officially only the movies are cannon (thankfully), they tell the only successful attempt the sith have had so far. Balance that over the thousands of years of jedi guardianship, the sith fall way way short. Edited December 24, 2014 by Kane_Ren

[dcaleb]

Lolling at the Maul fanboys still. He got bisected by a padawan, therefore his *** was well and truly kicked. End of story. The bs EU tried a lame retconn because they cried so hard about it. Heck, even sidious thought him disposable. Now that officially only the movies are cannon (thankfully), they tell the only successful attempt the sith have had so far. Balance that over the thousands of years of jedi guardianship, the sith fall way way short.

 

Pretty sure the The Clone Wars CGI series is still canon.

[Ghisallo]

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

 

“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )

 

There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

 

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

 

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

 

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

 

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

 

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

 

Finally, he saw the truth.

 

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

 

just--

 

didn't--

 

have it.

 

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

 

He had lost before he was born.

 

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

 

They had become new.

 

While the Jedi--

 

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

 

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

 

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

 

 

Episode 3 novelization.

 

I can find more but this is already clear. Yoda lost.

 

The problem is this. How many times in novelizations etc has Lucas later said "doesn't matter...the narrative in my movies is the proper truth...".

 

That has been and always been the problem with the Star Wars universe. What is and what is not Canon? Especially with the latest blow up preping for the new movies the only real Canon we have is either A) the movies B) statements from Lucas himself.

 

Is it annoying as all hell...yepper. However that is the long and the short of it, thanks to Lucas appearing to not giving two diddlies about what he may have "authorized" at some point in the past. This is one of my main issues with Lucas since I saw Episode IV in the theater the first time it was released.

[DougTbx]

You read the novelization of ROTS and watch the movie and you get almost completely takes on several of the major fights. The movie you don't get the impression that Dooku realized he was in serious trouble early into the fight against Kenobi and Skywalker and that his using his Force Powers to take Kenobi out was an act of desperation, but that is how the fight was written in the book. Yoda and Sidious the final force exchange just before the explosion that isn't a defeated look on Yoda's face and Sidious 's expression was more of "OOOOOHHHHHHHH @#$$!!!!!!!!" then he was winning. It as filmed looked more like if the disc had been turned around it would have been him taking the long fall and not being able to continue.

[Rhyltran]

You read the novelization of ROTS and watch the movie and you get almost completely takes on several of the major fights. The movie you don't get the impression that Dooku realized he was in serious trouble early into the fight against Kenobi and Skywalker and that his using his Force Powers to take Kenobi out was an act of desperation, but that is how the fight was written in the book. Yoda and Sidious the final force exchange just before the explosion that isn't a defeated look on Yoda's face and Sidious 's expression was more of "OOOOOHHHHHHHH @#$$!!!!!!!!" then he was winning. It as filmed looked more like if the disc had been turned around it would have been him taking the long fall and not being able to continue.

 

The only time Sidious showed any concern during Yoda's fight was that moment you're talking about. It was that moment alone that Sidious got worried. That moment where Yoda still failed to kill him. Where Yoda still didn't score a mortal injury. That moment where Sidious was still unharmed and ready to fight. Yoda wasn't. He escaped. As for the novel? Doesn't matter. According to C Canon so long as it doesn't contradict G Canon it's Canon.

 

Yoda realizing he was defeated and realized after falling that he didn't stand a chance does not contradict anything that happened in the movie. In fact, it makes sense. As he exiles himself for his perceived failure.

 

The problem is this. How many times in novelizations etc has Lucas later said "doesn't matter...the narrative in my movies is the proper truth...".

 

That has been and always been the problem with the Star Wars universe. What is and what is not Canon? Especially with the latest blow up preping for the new movies the only real Canon we have is either A) the movies B) statements from Lucas himself.

 

Is it annoying as all hell...yepper. However that is the long and the short of it, thanks to Lucas appearing to not giving two diddlies about what he may have "authorized" at some point in the past. This is one of my main issues with Lucas since I saw Episode IV in the theater the first time it was released.

 

Lucas made the statement he did but he also hired Leland Chee in order to keep continuity flowing. G Canon means anything lucas puts out is the highest level of Canon. C Canon is Canon so long as it doesn't contradict G Canon. Yoda losing does not contradict what we see in the movies.

 

In fact, it makes sense. If Yoda truly thought he could win why wouldn't he try another time? Why wouldn't he continue the fight? Why not wait for another opportunity to strike? He didn't. The only hope was the skywalker children because he knew he couldn't win.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Rhyltran

[DougTbx]

And your completely missing or ignoring my point of what if it had been Sidious who had been the one to fall all the way to the floor of the Senate and Yoda who only got knocked back a few feet, would Sidious of been in any shape to keep fighting. Also at the start he apparently had doubts about fighting Yoda when his lightning attack hadn't put him down for the count and the little guy threw him across the room, recall his next move was to try and bolt from the scene?

 

Course it's all perspective I guess on my part because when I read the book after seeing the movie I was scratching me head over how different what was written versus what I had seen. Personally I found the novel version of the duel with Dooku far better then what was on screen.

[Rhyltran]

And your completely missing or ignoring my point of what if it had been Sidious who had been the one to fall all the way to the floor of the Senate and Yoda who only got knocked back a few feet, would Sidious of been in any shape to keep fighting. Also at the start he apparently had doubts about fighting Yoda when his lightning attack hadn't put him down for the count and the little guy threw him across the room, recall his next move was to try and bolt from the scene?

 

Course it's all perspective I guess on my part because when I read the book after seeing the movie I was scratching me head over how different what was written versus what I had seen. Personally I found the novel version of the duel with Dooku far better then what was on screen.

 

Yes. Sidious would be able to keep fighting because he was very adept at shielding himself with the force. To be fair Yoda was 900 years old. His body was more decrepit than even Sidious' body. Yoda would use his walking stick to conserve energy. He only had so much. Sidious was fine walking around without aid or help. Even running. I'd argue if Yoda was in his prime things would have been very different.

[Silverspar]

Name one.

Name a single Jedi better suited for the role?

BWT you do realize that the birth of Theron was a SECRECT right? it's not a widely known fact

 

Orgis Din. Gnost Dural. Couple of others I can't remember the name of, off the top of my head. And no, Theron wasn't a secret. It was a widely known fact. I mean seriously, you think Jedi and anyone can't add two and two together to figure out, "that hey wait a moment, Satele and Theron have the same last name?" Only the gullible actually believe that Theron was a secret because if he was it was the worst kept secret in the order.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Silverspar

[dcaleb]

So, I am actually reading the RotS novelization right now and have gotten to the part where Anakin beheads Dooku. That fight is presented a lot differently in the novel then it is in the movie, pretty sure the movie never had the part where Anakin and Obi-Wan start the fight actively screwing around to lull Dooku into overconfidence before getting serious. I mean, they literally weren't even using their preferred lightsaber style forms when the fight started.

 

Also, Dooku is apparently a racist elitist on top of being stupid enough to trust his sith master. I much preferred his characterization in the Labyrinth of Evil book that precedes it in the novel trilogy detailing Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader.

 

Edit:

 

Orgis Din. Gnost Dural. Couple of others I can't remember the name of, off the top of my head. And no, Theron wasn't a secret. It was a widely known fact. I mean seriously, you think Jedi and anyone can't add two and two together to figure out, "that hey wait a moment, Satele and Theron have the same last name?" Only the gullible actually believe that Theron was a secret because if he was it was the worst kept secret in the order.

 

The hell did he ever do? Get his *** kicked by some guy the Hero of Tython whooped at the end of the first planet and try to solo Angral and die like a *****? And yes, I'm sure that everyone in the order keeps an obsessive eye on the census of republic citizens looking for people with the same last name as a jedi so they can look into it and see if they are the secret child of a jedi. For all we know Shan isn't even an uncommon name to begin with.

Edited December 25, 2014 by dcaleb

[ScarletBlaze]

Orgis Din. Gnost Dural. Couple of others I can't remember the name of, off the top of my head. And no, Theron wasn't a secret. It was a widely known fact. I mean seriously, you think Jedi and anyone can't add two and two together to figure out, "that hey wait a moment, Satele and Theron have the same last name?" Only the gullible actually believe that Theron was a secret because if he was it was the worst kept secret in the order.

 

 

You do seem to have a bias view on this subject which I believe no matter who or what someone says you will disagree.

Edited December 25, 2014 by ScarletBlaze

[DougTbx]

So were the Sith in on this whole Shan nepotism thing as well? I'm having a problem seeing all those Sith and Imperials during the war all stopping , pointing at her and saying "Hey isn't that Satelle Shan? Wow we'd better take a dive cause she's like related to Revan ya know?"

[Ghisallo]

The only time Sidious showed any concern during Yoda's fight was that moment you're talking about. It was that moment alone that Sidious got worried. That moment where Yoda still failed to kill him. Where Yoda still didn't score a mortal injury. That moment where Sidious was still unharmed and ready to fight. Yoda wasn't. He escaped. As for the novel? Doesn't matter. According to C Canon so long as it doesn't contradict G Canon it's Canon.

 

Yoda realizing he was defeated and realized after falling that he didn't stand a chance does not contradict anything that happened in the movie. In fact, it makes sense. As he exiles himself for his perceived failure.

 

 

 

Lucas made the statement he did but he also hired Leland Chee in order to keep continuity flowing. G Canon means anything lucas puts out is the highest level of Canon. C Canon is Canon so long as it doesn't contradict G Canon. Yoda losing does not contradict what we see in the movies.

 

In fact, it makes sense. If Yoda truly thought he could win why wouldn't he try another time? Why wouldn't he continue the fight? Why not wait for another opportunity to strike? He didn't. The only hope was the skywalker children because he knew he couldn't win.

 

The method of Yoda losing is contradicted however. Losing and how one loses are two different things. The Emperor is doing his "finishing move" Yoda throws it right back in his face. This causes the platform to become unstable. The eperor has a handle to grab hold of. Yoda doesn't and falls... knowing his 1v1 battle is toast and while he can likely take the emperor he can't take the emperor and squads of troopers at the same time.

 

When you look at the movie and do what you should do... use Occam's razor. It's pretty obvious. Trust me... not really a fan of either light or dark side. While it is no longer canon I was a much bigger fan of first, the Jeda'ii and the idea of "balance" and the "grey side" force users of the "new" empire. Black and white...me and them have never gotten along o I am not by any shape of the imagination stating the "light side" in general is better.

 

That said I would agree that with the exception of two whopping Jedi the Emperor would clean house "(Windu and Yoda)" , that Maul probably only got cut in half because A) in so far as duelists Obi Wan was destined to become the best of generation and B) he was already tuckered out a bit from fighting that padawan AND his master. This is what you see when you watch what is in front of you AND use Occam's Razor.

 

Same when you look at the video of Malgus getting beaten by Shan Did a timely plasma grenade help? Yepper. But what we were watching was , imo a fight that otherwise would have ended in a drawn and the victor would instead have been decided by who tripped over a twig or something random like that (as often happens in a real fight.) This is essentially what happened in Yoida's fight two. At best (from the film) it would have been a draw UNTIL the troopers come into frame... then yes Yoda is TOAST. However there was clearly shock on the part of the Emperor when the lightning gets thrown back into his face and in the end that is what kills him...over confidence. Over confidence in his new space station, over confidence in his master plan to stop the rebels on Endor, over confidence in his corruption of Vader...etc.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Ghisallo

[XantosCledwin]

As far as Satele's look, determination is one thing, it's still a blatant fact, she didn't kill any of those Sith that she just did her bad martial arts against. And it's pretty damn obvious, that once again, she was overpowered by Malgus in the fight. Again, it's always hilarious when a named Jedi can break the rules and get away with it, and nepotism is the only reason that Satele is the Grandmaster. Especially when there are Jedi that are better suited to the role of Grandmaster.

 

Do I really need to point out that the Jedi Code is excruciatingly similar to the philosophy of Zen Buddhism? As such if Satele were to simply charge across a battlefield, killing people all willy nilly, without even attempting to incapacitate those people in a non-lethal manner, she would be in severe violation of the Jedi Code. In order for a Jedi to kill someone, there needs to be ample evidence that no possible alternative solution is available to them.

 

This is why Satele did not kill all those nameless Sith in her charge towards Malgus. She did however brutally and permanently disable several droids, as droids have no life essence within the force for her to be concerned about snuffing out.

 

It is also this habit of seeking to incapacitate rather than kill their opponents that often leads to a Jedi getting their arses royally handed to them by the Sith who have absolutely no problem going in for the kill right from the start of the fight.

 

The hell did he ever do? Get his *** kicked by some guy the Hero of Tython whooped at the end of the first planet and try to solo Angral and die like a *****? And yes, I'm sure that everyone in the order keeps an obsessive eye on the census of republic citizens looking for people with the same last name as a jedi so they can look into it and see if they are the secret child of a jedi. For all we know Shan isn't even an uncommon name to begin with.

 

Not to mention any cousins, siblings, aunts, uncles, or what have you that Bastila Shan herself may have had, even if Satele Shan didn't have any immediate examples of those.

 

Point is, genealogy is not so simple as "Mother and Father conceive a child, Child gets with a man and conceives her own kid, end of story" there are always going to be other extended family members, some of whom will share the same last name. In fact, the very fact that Satele shares her mothers last name is a bit of an oddity only made possible by the fact that Bioware never saw fit to give Revan a full and proper name, and as such he had no Surname to pass on to his heirs. Same thing is shaping up to occur again in this game with the main Player Characters who also don't have legitimate surnames within the game lore (and no, the player generated Legacy Names don't count).

Edited December 26, 2014 by XantosCledwin

[Rhyltran]

The method of Yoda losing is contradicted however. Losing and how one loses are two different things. The Emperor is doing his "finishing move" Yoda throws it right back in his face. This causes the platform to become unstable. The eperor has a handle to grab hold of. Yoda doesn't and falls... knowing his 1v1 battle is toast and while he can likely take the emperor he can't take the emperor and squads of troopers at the same time.

 

When you look at the movie and do what you should do... use Occam's razor. It's pretty obvious. Trust me... not really a fan of either light or dark side. While it is no longer canon I was a much bigger fan of first, the Jeda'ii and the idea of "balance" and the "grey side" force users of the "new" empire. Black and white...me and them have never gotten along o I am not by any shape of the imagination stating the "light side" in general is better.

 

That said I would agree that with the exception of two whopping Jedi the Emperor would clean house "(Windu and Yoda)" , that Maul probably only got cut in half because A) in so far as duelists Obi Wan was destined to become the best of generation and B) he was already tuckered out a bit from fighting that padawan AND his master. This is what you see when you watch what is in front of you AND use Occam's Razor.

 

Same when you look at the video of Malgus getting beaten by Shan Did a timely plasma grenade help? Yepper. But what we were watching was , imo a fight that otherwise would have ended in a drawn and the victor would instead have been decided by who tripped over a twig or something random like that (as often happens in a real fight.) This is essentially what happened in Yoida's fight two. At best (from the film) it would have been a draw UNTIL the troopers come into frame... then yes Yoda is TOAST. However there was clearly shock on the part of the Emperor when the lightning gets thrown back into his face and in the end that is what kills him...over confidence. Over confidence in his new space station, over confidence in his master plan to stop the rebels on Endor, over confidence in his corruption of Vader...etc.

 

It isn't contradicted in the movies. That's not what contradiction is and that wasn't Sidious' finishing move. He was just using some force lightning. Did you forget the part where when Yoda tries to throw it back at him like he did Dooku Yoda also flew across the room? He couldn't properly reflect it back. It was too strong. Getting nervous for a moment like Sidious is not the same as "You will definitely lose." ever been in a competition online or otherwise where for a moment you get nervous that you might lose but then you don't? It's a lot like that. For a moment there he thought Yoda was going to truly reflect it back. For a moment there he probably thought "I underestimated him. I might have bit off more than I could chew."

 

But then Sidious didn't die. Also the novelization might contradict what's in the movie but in terms of canon what doesn't is Canon. Yoda's realization in the book that he could never defeat Sidious is not directly contradicted on screen. There is no contradiction. Can you prove Yoda did not come to that conclusion? I'd argue that he did. The book was right about that because Yoda even went into exile. Since there's no contradiction to Yoda's revelation we can assume that it happened. I quoted several sources that stated that Yoda wasn't good enough to defeat Sidious. That Sidious was more powerful. Since we don't see ANYTHING contradict that. It's canon that Sidious is simply stronger.

[AlrikFassbauer]

This is something I have observed on many boards and comment sections and that is that the Jedi are often dismissed as weak and or inferior to the Sith.

 

The devs did a VERY good job in stressing that view that Jedi are weak and so on. Sages get pebbles for throwing, for example ... Or just look at the Disciples pictures ( which can be found in the class blogs as well ).

 

But beneath the surface, there is far more to it : Just look at this thread and decide for yourself what applies to the game and what to the people : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=269013

 

It's canon that Sidious is simply stronger.

 

Wrong. Sidious says about Yoda : "He is too strong" in the very last movie of the CLone Wars series, the one with Yoda learning about the Force.

 

And Clone Wars is Canon, as far as I know.

 

 

It is only that the Jedi way of being is often seen and portraiyed as being weak - especially in a society which is THAT militaristic like the U.S. society.

The U.S. society is more or less a "warrior ociety", which regards violence as a way to solve problems so much higher than "wak" diplomacy. Hence the wars begin by U.S. Presidents (George W. Bush, for example, who called Germany belonging to "the Old Europe", an insult no American has ever realized how much anger it evoked).

 

Warriors always see

 

violence = strong,

and

nonviolence = weak

 

and that's why

 

Sith / Empire = strong

Jedi / Republic = weak

 

and in militaristic societies it is this way as ell.

 

You just need to look beneath the surface.

Edited December 27, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[Rhyltran]

The devs did a VERY good job in stressing that view that Jedi are weak and so on. Sages get pebbles for throwing, for example ... Or just look at the Disciples pictures ( which can be found in the class blogs as well ).

 

But beneath the surface, there is far more to it : Just look at this thread and decide for yourself what applies to the game and what to the people : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=269013

 

 

 

Wrong. Sidious says about Yoda : "He is too strong" in the very last movie of the CLone Wars series, the one with Yoda learning about the Force.

 

And Clone Wars is Canon, as far as I know.

 

 

It is only that the Jedi way of being is often seen and portraiyed as being weak - especially in a society which is THAT militaristic like the U.S. society.

The U.S. society is more or less a "warrior ociety", which regards violence as a way to solve problems so much higher than "wak" diplomacy. Hence the wars begin by U.S. Presidents (George W. Bush, for example, who called Germany belonging to "the Old Europe", an insult no American has ever realized how much anger it evoked).

 

Warriors always see

 

violence = strong,

and

nonviolence = weak

 

and that's why

 

Sith / Empire = strong

Jedi / Republic = weak

 

and in militaristic societies it is this way as ell.

 

You just need to look beneath the surface.

 

It's also been stated the longer the war was going the more powerful Sidious was getting. Don't forget. Revenge of the Sith happens later than the clone wars. By then Sidious was stronger than Yoda. This confirms why he tried running at first but then he realized he had the upper hand and kept fighting.

[Ghisallo]

It isn't contradicted in the movies. That's not what contradiction is and that wasn't Sidious' finishing move. He was just using some force lightning. Did you forget the part where when Yoda tries to throw it back at him like he did Dooku Yoda also flew across the room? He couldn't properly reflect it back. It was too strong. Getting nervous for a moment like Sidious is not the same as "You will definitely lose." ever been in a competition online or otherwise where for a moment you get nervous that you might lose but then you don't? It's a lot like that. For a moment there he thought Yoda was going to truly reflect it back. For a moment there he probably thought "I underestimated him. I might have bit off more than I could chew."

 

But then Sidious didn't die. Also the novelization might contradict what's in the movie but in terms of canon what doesn't is Canon. Yoda's realization in the book that he could never defeat Sidious is not directly contradicted on screen. There is no contradiction. Can you prove Yoda did not come to that conclusion? I'd argue that he did. The book was right about that because Yoda even went into exile. Since there's no contradiction to Yoda's revelation we can assume that it happened. I quoted several sources that stated that Yoda wasn't good enough to defeat Sidious. That Sidious was more powerful. Since we don't see ANYTHING contradict that. It's canon that Sidious is simply stronger.

 

Clearly nuance is lost on you...that there can be draws in fights IRL. First ummm...force lighting is Sidious' finishing move ... Think Mortal Combat...when he hears "finish him!!!!" It is his finishing move. That aside draws are the point I am making... IRL fights can often end in draws or come down to when someone trips on a twig, or when your buddies jump in on the fight. I am NOT saying Yoda would have beat Sidious into the dirt 1v1. What I am saying is that when you look at the scene in the movie critically the only reason Yoda lost when he did was because he tripped... then he knew he would lose because the troopers were inc. Simply saying "Yoda said he could not defeat Sidious" is NOT the same as saying "1v1 Sidious would beat Yoda."

If you look at the movie screen play, the ONLY G-Canon...Yoda loses because first, he lacks a hand hold on the platform and then knows he is toast if he tries to stand against Sidious and the reinforcements.

 

Sorry but if you want to try and use the novelization...its fail because technically we have 4 contradicting stories if we use Print. In the Junior novelization Yoda is never even stunned during the fight, he is just playing possum (as one example). The ONLY bit that is G-Canon is the Screen play. The screen play CLEARLY shows a battle which is, in terms of power and skill a draw...until Yoda trips. Anything else is C-Canon. And BTW there is nothing that says (that I can find) "if C-Canon does not directly and specifically contradict G-Canon it is Canon" and that is intentional for the specific reason I not above.

 

Now if you think the adult novelization is cooler fine. Heck in general I think it is cooler too. There (or in the comic, its been a while) Yoda realizes more importantly NOT that his little battle but at that time the war had been lost. Why the war was lost is what I think is cool. He sees that the Sith evolved and changed where as under his leadership the Jedi were training to fight the last war. This is an important lesson even IRL. The difference is I don't allow my concept of what is and is not cooler interfere with what is and is true Canon. There we use the screen play, not A novelization, because if you do that you end up, as I said earlier, not even with 2 different stories but 4.

 

Examples of discrepancies...

 

Adult novelizations says at the end Sidious is a "very old, very tired man."

 

Comic: Yoda is such a bad *** he is knocking Palpatine down by launching himself like a middle.

 

Junior novelization I already noted. I could go on but yeah...Screenplay is it...for good or bad.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

The devs did a VERY good job in stressing that view that Jedi are weak and so on. Sages get pebbles for throwing, for example ... Or just look at the Disciples pictures ( which can be found in the class blogs as well ).

 

But beneath the surface, there is far more to it : Just look at this thread and decide for yourself what applies to the game and what to the people : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=269013

 

 

 

Wrong. Sidious says about Yoda : "He is too strong" in the very last movie of the CLone Wars series, the one with Yoda learning about the Force.

 

And Clone Wars is Canon, as far as I know.

 

 

It is only that the Jedi way of being is often seen and portraiyed as being weak - especially in a society which is THAT militaristic like the U.S. society.

The U.S. society is more or less a "warrior ociety", which regards violence as a way to solve problems so much higher than "wak" diplomacy. Hence the wars begin by U.S. Presidents (George W. Bush, for example, who called Germany belonging to "the Old Europe", an insult no American has ever realized how much anger it evoked).

 

Warriors always see

 

violence = strong,

and

nonviolence = weak

 

and that's why

 

Sith / Empire = strong

Jedi / Republic = weak

 

and in militaristic societies it is this way as ell.

 

You just need to look beneath the surface.

 

I think you attempt to apply a false analogy to an entire a nation IRL kinda derails your point and actually creates issues (just ask the French Soldiers that have been fighting all over North and West Africa for the last couple years, especially in Mali and Muritania if only the US is a " warrior nation").

 

In the end though you do hit a core thread. In few movies do we see the hero, in general, get back up and keep fighting in a moment of " inner peace" unless you are big, like I am, into watching movies from Asia. If we want to draw RL analogies it is a Western vs Eastern mindset, no particular nation. In the west we have the Nordic Tradition of the Berserker (as an example). The marital arts of the west have been about physicality, training the body, using force either through speed or strength etc.

 

To an isolated western mind the Sith are thus more powerful because they represent, ultimately, the application of brute force. It is in the east where you find contemplative martial arts. Even there though masters of these arts are rare. A true Tai Chi master can actually kick SERIOUS butt. However the time it takes to be even "just" an expert, not a master, of "internal" martial arts is a lot more than it takes to be expert at say Isshin Ryu.

 

That last bit I think applies as well to SWTOR. If you look at the comics and novels of the OLD Republic and the Sith Wars...the Sith usually out number the Jedi (look at all the acolytes in the "Hope" video as an example) because it is an easier path to be a student of and maybe even an expert at. Things don't seem to balance out # wise until you are dealing with true masters since the Sith like wacking each other as much as they like beating the Republic lol. If they didn't spend so much time trying to stab each other in the back.

[ZetaZoran]

This is something I have observed on many boards and comment sections and that is that the Jedi are often dismissed as weak and or inferior to the Sith. For example Satele Shan, hero of the war, Grandmaster of the Order, yet constantly derided by commentators are weak because of her difficulties with one single opponent Darth Malgus. Yes he over whelmed her physically during their two light saber battles and she had help when she defeated him thru her force powers during their second battle.

 

Because of this she is called weak, and they ignore how many other Sith she carved thru effortlessly to engage Malgus, or in her other appearances in book and comics where she has beaten at least one DC member and destroyed legions of battle droids. The same thing happens with the other Jedi , Zallow casually cutting down other Sith in the midst of his duel with Malgus, or Durach not only fending off two Sith but defeating Vindican, only falling to Malgus due to exhaustion.

 

The Jedi are weak because the don't embrace the Dark Side!

 

Now that's out of the way the reason Jedi are considered weak are for a couple of reasons.

 

1st While the Sith use the force for everything the Jedi mostly use it only to defend themselves. Case in point the Sith use Force Lighting and Force choke to name a couple of "dark side moves" while the Jedi mostly use force push and that's about it. You have Jedi Masters who may use a few more moves but for the most part they stick to their light saber and only their light saber.

 

2nd The Jedi have self imposed weakness as well. For example the Sith teach their apprentice as much as they can as fast as they can with only a few things being left out so they have a trump card for if/when they turn on them. On the other hand Jedi teach far less overall unless you have a really good teacher who defies the council like Obi-wan. They teach you only what they think you are ready for and because of that you can become a Jedi Knight without know everything you should about the dark side because they try to shield them from the dark side with lack of knowledge. It can take decades for you to learn about the dark side of the force and the reason it is important is because if makes it hard to defend yourself against something you know very little about. Jedi Master have access to more and the Jedi council has access to everything. So it is like sending a solider out to battle and saying the enemy has a rifle but they don't tell you about the tank with missile launchers. In short you are caught off guard and are totally outgunned.

 

These two reason is the reasons Jedi look weak. Power wise they are just as capable as the Sith but while the Sith train for battle the Jedi learn defense but only at a slow incremental rate which leaves the Jedi, even during their hay day, weak against most Sith. You can think of Jedi powers with an inverted pyramid because the more they know, the fewer they are. If they were all trained 100% from the start then more would fall to the dark side but their would be a lot more to deal with the fallen Jedi as well.

 

In short it is not power, its knowledge of the force. Sith take all they can while the Jedi are slow to train.

[Aurbere]

Well here is a simple fact;

 

The Jedi claim they aren't warriors, quite regularly in fact. The Sith train for war. So much so that the Sith believe that only two of them were needed to take the entire Jedi order on.

 

Actually both Palpatine and Plagueis both knew that they couldn't take the entire Jedi Order on. They knew that they were a match for the best, but the entire Jedi Order was too much for them to face.

[Klaviad]

It's really very simple. Sith on average are more powerful then Jedi....In fighting capabilities. How could they not be? Sith are fueled by passion, and study fighting, leading, subtlety, infiltration, etc. from the beginning. Jedi are taught to control themselves, to be calm and collected. The very nature of Jedi and Sith makes the Sith better and combat, and the Jedi better at being diplomats, protectors, people that can be trusted. That's why the Rule of Two came about in the first place. Bane realized that it didn't matter that the Sith were better at fighting, because the Jedi were better at recruitment, and the Sith would always destroy each other from within. It does not matter how good your army is at fighting if they end up killing each other while your enemies gather more allies. Sith will often beat Jedi of close strength, but in the long run, Subtlety is the only thing that will keep the Sith from extinction.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Power wise they are just as capable as the Sith but while the Sith train for battle the Jedi learn defense

 

I believe that this might be ca point, too.

 

Defense looks weak, because it is not a display of power - at least not of active power. Not of power that is projected into an direction - like in an attack.

 

My thought is that defense is rather projected inwards, to strengthen things from within,

meanwhile attack is projected outwards, to project strength into the outer world.

 

In the end, both sides are equal, but in their sheer looks, Defense always looks so much weaker. Especially to Attackers, especially to those who believe that the path of the warrior is the "right" patch - and therefore compare "strength" always in terms of projecting strength outwards (like in attacks).

 

Or, to use a different picture : To someone who believes that aggression is a good thing, and that power is only displayed through the [ displayed / shown ] amount of aggression,

defenses are looking weak, because there is literally no aggression shown.

No shown aggression = 0 aggression = 0 power, following that logic.

Instead, Defense is meant to *protect* against aggression.

[Kyrrant]

It's really very simple. Sith on average are more powerful then Jedi....In fighting capabilities. How could they not be? Sith are fueled by passion, and study fighting, leading, subtlety, infiltration, etc. from the beginning. Jedi are taught to control themselves, to be calm and collected. The very nature of Jedi and Sith makes the Sith better and combat, and the Jedi better at being diplomats, protectors, people that can be trusted. That's why the Rule of Two came about in the first place. Bane realized that it didn't matter that the Sith were better at fighting, because the Jedi were better at recruitment, and the Sith would always destroy each other from within. It does not matter how good your army is at fighting if they end up killing each other while your enemies gather more allies. Sith will often beat Jedi of close strength, but in the long run, Subtlety is the only thing that will keep the Sith from extinction.

 

True to a point, but the problem is that general perception is more heavily slanted towards Jedi being weak and/or incompetent.

 

The fact that Imperial chars cut down Jedi a lot in the game, thanks to the demands of game mechanics and the need for a steady stream of baddies to take out, doesn't help.

 

And this seeps into character portrayal as well. The fact of the matter is that the prospect of fighting any member of the Jedi Council should be analogous, in character, to being told "Here's a pointy stick. I need you to go blow up that M1 Abrams battle tank", or "That aricraft carrier with dozens of warplanes and thousands of personnel is suppressing our position, go swim over there and take it out with your knife".

 

Jumping at the challenge? Sure. Pretending like its going to be easy, though?

 

Of course, same goes for members of the Dark Council. Or really any trained Force User (to a lesser degree, of course).