State of the game review on Kotaku....

[Kalfear]

The only MMO I know of that did this correctly is Firefall. PVP and PVE were treated as two totally separate games. PVP had all character stats set in stone, so that any two players of the same class were on 100% equal footing, with only their skills to separate them, whether they had been PVPing for months or just created their character that day. PVE still had its gear progression, levels, etc. Nothing you did in PVE affected the PVP game at all. At least, that's how it was when I played it last.

 

Then again, a while after I quit (because the game sucked overall), PVP was removed from the game completely, because they couldn't sustain it along with all their PVE changes. So I guess in the end, they didn't do it that correctly. Don't know what state the PVE/PVP of that game is in now, though. But I guess the point could be made that separating PVE and PVP in this way requires too much dev work. But is it really harder to balance 2 independent sets of gameplay than to balance both sets of gameplay at the same time? I doubt it.

 

The fact remains that the only way to have PVE and PVP exist in the same game, and not have the PVP be seen as a joke by literally all competitive gamers, is to make them completely independent of one other - and have no progression of any kind in PVP aside from your own skill at playing the game.

 

Only 2 games have ever done it right IMO Kry

 

the first MMO in 1991 (Neverwinter Nights on AOL...circa 1991-97.... NOT the Bioware game) and Dark Age of Camelot

 

NWN was a fluke however, completely by accident. The original game released with no pvp at all but the player base loved the game so much that they wrote the one and only expansion for game. Somehow in that expansion the game changed to allow magic (pro and negative) to effect other players. And thus PVP was born.

 

So since only magic worked and the classes were limited the only build for a PVPer became dual class Cleric/Magic User (CLAM). And since everyone had access to the same spells as they leveled up. It was a completely Equal setting for players to test their skill vrs someone elses skill.

 

Creating a completely balanced setting for PVP is the ONLY WAY to ensure the fights remain skill based rather then item/stats/equipment base.

 

So NWN pvp was very competitive where the truly best players (not just best equiped/geared) rose to the top.

 

And Im sure I dont need to say why a cleric/magic user would come in handy for a PVE group out adventuring.

 

Dark Age of Camelot was far more intended balance and system

 

DAoC did something, that for some weird reason other developers refuse to do, that just made so much sense

Rather then pit player vrs player as SW:TOR does or any host of other 1 dimensional PVP systems do, they made common goals and objectives for the faction. EVERYONE in a faction benefited from having and holding relics . Your Faction benefited (opening Darkness Falls underground content) by holding the most keeps.

 

These were RVR objectives that benefited every player of that faction so thus realm unity was promoted and created.

 

In SW:TOR there is no realm/faction unity.

I often laugh when Im playing on Oricon as I am far more likely to be aided randomly by a imp character (when Im playing my rep characters) then ever am by Rep players. Im far from the only one to notice this truth.

 

Realm unity doesnt exist in SW:TOR

So right there you have the PVP and PVEers separated and at odds because the game styles two completely different concepts.

 

Its funny that I can point to EXACTLY when DAoC system broke down and the game started to decline

It was the introduction of RAs (Special abilities only earned through PVP that created an imbalance between the play styles).

Prior to RAs, characters were equal mostly so you felt you always had a chance.

Once RAs came in the active PVPers basically became god characters in RVR, which drove away the non PVPers that use to respond to calls of arms for relic defenses.

The non pvpers stopped coming because they simply couldn't compete vrs the RA laden PVPers

 

In SW:TOR its expertise stat that drives the non pvpers away and creates the separation and ensures the two play styles will always be at odds.

 

Personally I think if this game is to ever have meaningful PVP they need to remove the expertise stat (if the die hard pvpers as good as they claim they don't need artificial boosts like the expertise does for them) and create common goal objectives that help a faction rather then a single player.

 

Until that day comes, this game will continue to be veiwed as a PVP lite game that utilizes PVP as a side mini game cast off

[Kryand]

Personally I think if this game is to ever have meaningful PVP they need to remove the expertise stat (if the die hard pvpers as good as they claim they don't need artificial boosts like the expertise does for them) and create common goal objectives that help a faction rather then a single player.

 

Until that day comes, this game will continue to be veiwed as a PVP lite game that utilizes PVP as a side mini game cast off

 

Yep, it's the truth, but don't forget that PVE gear needs to be irrelevant in PVP, or PVE grinding would be just as bad as expertise grinding. Equal footing in every single respect (except player skill) regardless of time spent grinding is the only way for any PVP to not be a joke. Of course players might still be separated by differing classes, disciplines, stat distribution choices (if that becomes a thing), but as long as those choices are available to all players who PVP at any time, it's still equal footing.

 

Oddly enough, the easiest way to accomplish this in the current game is to make all PVP gear free. It still leaves the problem of trying to balance PVE and PVP at the same time, but at least it solves the PVP grind advantage issue.

[JumperPenn]

6)On the flip side the 12x XP has tarnished the game for anyone who doesn't support dumbing down of content. I know for myself (and many I speak to in game) where once we ran multiple flash points a day, none of us can bring ourselves to re entering GF queues because 12x XP just destroyed the level of competency of groups through GF (which wasn't ultra high to begin with). And even though my server is busy, you hear the endless complaints over general of long queues once again happening now as more and more experienced players vacate using GF because of the dumbing down of group quality.

 

So you got those that want everything for free given to them supporting 12x XP

And those who want to play the game and earn their way vacating a big chunk of end game content because of the inclusion of above group.

 

Personally I see this ultimately hurting EA subscription wise as we see more and more of those that subed up for 12x XP revert back to F2P status now they leveled up fast (they never intended to stay subed long term) and those that were long time subscribers who dont want it all given to them leave the game as a big chuck of content for them has been made unplayable.

 

I don't support dumbing down of the game which is different than dumbing down group quality and debatable depending on your point of view. YET I am fine with 12xp and the associated 'bad' in the form of players not being familiar with their class/role/abilities and/or lacking proper gear for their level. WHY, because group quality has in my opinion been pretty crappy and going downhill for a while. BACK in my day when I ran FP as I leveled the roles of healer and dps (didn't do tank because by that time groups became full of elitist jerks) for the most part groups were friendly and helpful. People in groups didn't take themselves too seriously and were fine explaining fights, watching cutscenes and dealing with a wipe now and then, there were fewer needs on everything. Over time groups turned into more and more angry people trying to speed run through every aspect of the FP spitting insults at any mistake, question, etc.

 

I can't explain the bad attitude is it that these people play too much and expect everyone to be as efficient or good as them or is that too many new players got in their groups and didn't know enough or were just bad and ruined their attitude. It is probably a bit of both but I put more of the burden on the experienced player because they are the ones in the best situation to effect a change they'd like to see in the form of better players. Rage quitting, trash talking, and being a rude so and so don't help make bad/inexperienced players better.

 

Dumbing down of the game to me is the discipline system that makes instant ability choices for everyone shoehorns you into a build and lets you 'pick' from a handful of utilities of which there are few real choices for your role. Letting me run multiple chars through the class story and avoid all the side quests I'm sick of as well as the fps with angry vets complaining about someone not skipping a cutscene or complaining they need the healer drop for their dps or an alt because they can use the mod is not dumbing down the game.

 

Some of your players who 'don't want it all handed to them' need to check their own attitude because they are contributing to competent people not wanting to play with people who complain about every new player or person trying a different role that messes up their best time running this or that FP for 1000th time. The amount of trash talking that goes on in pug ops groups is pathetic and just shows what a bad attitude many experienced players have.

 

TLDR: Bad attitude, often from experienced players, does just as much if not more to hurt group quality as players who don't know their class/role/etc from running many more hours of leveling running side quests to level(that most vets are sick of running.

[LordArtemis]

Well, I have found that posting outside reviews tend to spark conversation that is usually devoid of the sort of personal attacks that most opinion pieces here end up with.

 

Lately it seems like one of the few ways that I can help folks actually THINK for themselves and post their opinions, instead of trying to kill each other with them...they can direct their ire at the outside review instead, and those that just wish to have a serious discussion can do so.

 

It is shame that something like this has to stir up this kind of constructive debate, but at this point I will try anything.

 

I like to read opinions, pro and con. IMO it is a healthy discussion, and helps me to learn and understand different viewpoints.

[MiaRB]

Well, I have found that posting outside reviews tend to spark conversation that is usually devoid of the sort of personal attacks that most opinion pieces here end up with.

 

Lately it seems like one of the few ways that I can help folks actually THINK for themselves and post their opinions, instead of trying to kill each other with them...they can direct their ire at the outside review instead, and those that just wish to have a serious discussion can do so.

 

It is shame that something like this has to stir up this kind of constructive debate, but at this point I will try anything.

 

I like to read opinions, pro and con. IMO it is a healthy discussion, and helps me to learn and understand different viewpoints.

 

really? seems every thread you make has the sole intention of stirring stuff up.

[LyraineAlei]

really? seems every thread you make has the sole intention of stirring stuff up.

 

Technically, even breathing has been known to stir things up. Just ask the attic and my nose. ;P

 

Anyway, stirring things up seems to be the only way to get an interesting conversation. If we all talked about some mundane thing, the conversation would die off quickly. Look at the long, multi-page threads. Most of those consist of people having long opinionated debates as to which side is ultimately right, or better, or more something or other.

[LordArtemis]

really? seems every thread you make has the sole intention of stirring stuff up.

 

Fair enough, but I think my post history states otherwise.

[Deewe]

Seems there's some focus on PvP...

 

Here's a, would I say, nice wrap-up on the subject, I parsed some time ago.

 

Read the following on MMORPG.com

 

Fdzzaigl writes:

I really like the core idea of PvP in the game, the abilities for all classes are generally fun to use in PvP and there's a good balance of quick reaction time and strategical thinking.

However, a number of problems have plagued the PvP since launch:

1) Crazy amounts of CC. "Stun Wars" as it's often called has always been a problem in TOR. Almost every class has several hardstuns as well as other controlling effects like roots and slows. There are no diminishing effects and the resolve system is wholly unsifficient, as you're likely almost dead anyhow if your resolve meter is full.

Ironically, the resolve system used to work in a totally different (and much better) way shortly after and before launch in this game.

 

2) Crazy amounts of burst: a problem that isn't exclusive to TOR, but it's a bad trend in many MMO's nowadays. Even with the best PvP gear on, you can literally walk into a situation where you are hardstunned and globalled (killed 100-0% inside the global cooldown of 1,5 seconds and therefore totally unable to act).

Pre-launch, BioWare's idea for the PvP was that each fight would take a while and that you would have ample chance to make a comeback or turn a situation around. This was true shortly after launch and was tons of fun, but everything about that promise went to hell quite fast. They've never managed to turn it around again.

 

3) Too much healing. Of course due to points 1) and 2) this is currently necessary, but again far too much focus is being laid on having that quintessential healer with you for PvP. Luckily there's also the PvP tank in this game, which puts a little bit of variety in there.

Healing and therefore practically having infinite healthpools is one of the things that actually causes there to be a need for massive burst and CC however. But obviously there's no turning back from this one.

 

4) Unbalanced mechanics. TOR follows the FOTM format quite heavily (though I came back after a year and assassins were still FOTM just as they were back then, so in that case it's more like flavour of the year lol).

More importantly though, they've always had a ton of trouble getting certain stats and resistances working correctly to mitigate or reduce damage.

We started off with the surge rating stat giving ******* insane crits to certain classes, then they had problems with expertise (basically something like WoW's resilience) giving newbie players the shaft.

Defensive stats used to be crap in PvP all-around, thankfully they made shield rating more useful, but defense rating is still ****.

Recently they've made it so everyone gets bolstered, even at the level cap. But this has caused some players to start nerfing heir top-end gear in order to be bolstered higher than normally, an absurd situation.

Right now expertise is also too weak against dots, which they have made uncleansable for the most part. For reasons...

 

5) Grinding tier after tier of gear. Opinions may vary.

 

6) Wrong focus. For a game that wants to include as much Star Wars lore as possible, the focus on small-scale arena and battleground PvP is completely out of whack.

Worse still, a bunch of stiff-headed elitists keep resisting any change to that model.

Instead they should be focusing on introducing more massive, immersive battlegrounds that are reminiscent of the epic battles from the films and have some true bearing on the war between Empire and Republic in the game.

The engine is the biggest limiting factor there, but it needn't be like the Ilum battles at the start of the game. They can make it entirely instanced ala Alterac Valley for all I care.

 

 

Then I'd add this

Originally posted by NightHaveN

Personally I always believed that having a stat specifically for PvP is a fail. Not only it does reward people that do only PvP frequently while harm badly the part-timer pvper, but that gear is also kind of useless in PvE.

Sadly is a design copied from WoW that is also imitated by other games (ie. Wildstar).

 

Not sure there's much to add on PvP then.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Deewe

[NotHereAgain]

I am sorry, I find both Rishi and Yavin boring in the extreme.. I'm slugging thru it, just so I can get thru it.

The storyline is flat, contrived and predictable. They took a character from other "universes", brought him back to life in an attempt to make the story creditable and in the process destroyed the mystic of other characters such as Marr.

(By making him a part of group, you show he is weak.. which should only be done if you're the one killing him.) Seeing him bow to a Jedi Master, almost made me punch my screen! It's absurd.

 

As I pointed out in game, there are dozens of "unfinished" storylines that the devs could have drawn from to make the story interesting, but instead pulled in an pretty much weak character, built him into some huge ominous "boogieman" and then made him out to be a flash in the pan with a personality disorder. That's the best you could come up with?

Not to mention completely breaking character with the Pub/Imps teaming up? Really? That's absolutely ridiculous and don't even get me started on the "pirate" garbage.

 

IF the desire was to make this "fun" for freebie kiddos, sitting at home, missing "Pirates Of The Caribbean", (all that House Of Mouse charm..) well done! The only thing you missed was the musical number with Marr and Satele. (Or was that in a cut scene a spaced thru?)

I play the game for the story, I like the story.. I've played every prof, several times.. And each time it's fun.. But this.. words fail me.

Please, don't just throw something together next time, take your time, give the characters the respect they deserve. I know you can do better.

[Toweleeeie]

I don't support dumbing down of the game which is different than dumbing down group quality and debatable depending on your point of view. YET I am fine with 12xp and the associated 'bad' in the form of players not being familiar with their class/role/abilities and/or lacking proper gear for their level. WHY, because group quality has in my opinion been pretty crappy and going downhill for a while. BACK in my day when I ran FP as I leveled the roles of healer and dps (didn't do tank because by that time groups became full of elitist jerks) for the most part groups were friendly and helpful. People in groups didn't take themselves too seriously and were fine explaining fights, watching cutscenes and dealing with a wipe now and then, there were fewer needs on everything. Over time groups turned into more and more angry people trying to speed run through every aspect of the FP spitting insults at any mistake, question, etc.

 

I can't explain the bad attitude is it that these people play too much and expect everyone to be as efficient or good as them or is that too many new players got in their groups and didn't know enough or were just bad and ruined their attitude. It is probably a bit of both but I put more of the burden on the experienced player because they are the ones in the best situation to effect a change they'd like to see in the form of better players. Rage quitting, trash talking, and being a rude so and so don't help make bad/inexperienced players better.

 

Dumbing down of the game to me is the discipline system that makes instant ability choices for everyone shoehorns you into a build and lets you 'pick' from a handful of utilities of which there are few real choices for your role. Letting me run multiple chars through the class story and avoid all the side quests I'm sick of as well as the fps with angry vets complaining about someone not skipping a cutscene or complaining they need the healer drop for their dps or an alt because they can use the mod is not dumbing down the game.

 

Some of your players who 'don't want it all handed to them' need to check their own attitude because they are contributing to competent people not wanting to play with people who complain about every new player or person trying a different role that messes up their best time running this or that FP for 1000th time. The amount of trash talking that goes on in pug ops groups is pathetic and just shows what a bad attitude many experienced players have.

 

TLDR: Bad attitude, often from experienced players, does just as much if not more to hurt group quality as players who don't know their class/role/etc from running many more hours of leveling running side quests to level(that most vets are sick of running.

 

I think the bad attitude is shared equally. Going into a sm or tactical without reading boss mechanics prior is fine. SM is for learning the basic fight mechanics. When you step into a HM, you better know fights. If you're of the mine set of "I'm not going to read a guide for boss fight", please just stay in SM.

 

I'll teach in a HM FP, just tell me it's your 1st time here.

 

I'm sure I've ruined a few peoples experiences in HMs. But people not knowing what they are doing have ruined mine.

 

I've only ran 1 HM FP since xpac in GF and we face rolled it. I want my vanilla Lost Island challenge back!

[LordArtemis]

I see it a few ways when it comes to SMs, HMs, Ops and pugs/premades.

 

SMs and SM Pugs are the domain of casual players, or casual raiders. Folks that are just starting end game, casual players trying to break into traditional hardcore play, etc.

 

As such, any hardcore player that enters into this form of play should expect to meet players that are inexperienced and accept it. Hardcores in this area are in an area they do not belong, and need to accept the realities of this IMO.

 

HMs and HM premades/Ops are the domain of hardcore players, or traditional MMO players. This is the area of the game that holds the most difficult content, and players that engage in that content want competence surrounding them.

 

Any casual player that is determined to participate in this form of play must understand that they need to be aware of the fights, be properly geared and follow instructions. They are also in a place they do not belong, and should act accordingly.

[Foambreaker]

Wow, the article OP linked is terribly written, site needs to get someone with Journalist skills

[bhedrick]

I see it a few ways when it comes to SMs, HMs, Ops and pugs/premades.

 

SMs and SM Pugs are the domain of casual players, or casual raiders. Folks that are just starting end game, casual players trying to break into traditional hardcore play, etc.

 

As such, any hardcore player that enters into this form of play should expect to meet players that are inexperienced and accept it. Hardcores in this area are in an area they do not belong, and need to accept the realities of this IMO.

 

HMs and HM premades/Ops are the domain of hardcore players, or traditional MMO players. This is the area of the game that holds the most difficult content, and players that engage in that content want competence surrounding them.

 

Any casual player that is determined to participate in this form of play must understand that they need to be aware of the fights, be properly geared and follow instructions. They are also in a place they do not belong, and should act accordingly.

 

I believe this is one of the best posts I've ever read summarizing why most of the "causal vs. hard-core, us vs. them" back and forth is quite misguided. I think most "the game is getting to easy" complaints are just misguided. As pointed out in the above post, SWTOR has a balance of "easy to learn" content for those seeking such, and it has "difficult to master" content for the rest. Everyone is looking for a fun experience, for some challenging is fun, for some it is not. A think a good balance of both is needed for any current MMO.

 

I also think the contention that 12XP makes for bad group content because people never learn their class has always seemed dubious to me. Its just a fallacy. Leveling isn't "practice" for group content, its just leveling. Without fail, in every MMO I have ever played, I have never played my class leveling the same would play it in any group content. Leveling has never taught me how to group well. Heck, many MMO's have dual spec specifically to that end: so you can level in one spec and do end game in another. What teaches one how to group well is taking the time to read guides and watch strategy videos. The people who are bad in groups are not bad because they "leveled too fast", they are bad because they are entering group content and have no desire to do the "homework" necessary to understand the demands of said group content. Those people probably would have refused to read or watch a guide whether they leveled to 60 in a week or 60 weeks. All 12XP does is separate the wheat from the chaff: I can level a toon from scratch and focus strictly on class stories.

 

Finally, another fallacy I see thrown around a lot is: "you don't need/deserve better gear if your not doing OP's." (or sometimes phrased as Q: "why do you play a MMO if you don't like to group?" A: Because I like playing a persistent character in a persistent world that is periodically updated). Yes, you do "need" progressively better gear even if you-gasp-chose not to participate in end-game group content. Its an RPG, and even if your end game is soloing dailies, progression is core to any RPG. Whatever I'm doing should be improving my character to some extent. I have no problem if certain choices (choosing solo content over group content) lead to slower progression. I have no problem if operations are the fastest route. But all content should be at least a slow grind to best-in-slot. I think operations would be better for raiders and non-raiders alike if they were less "hey, its the only way to get the best gear" and more "hey, here is an ALTERNATE path for gearing for those who like really challenging group content." Or, if you prefer, if end-game solo content was less "well, operations are the only way to gear up, but I can't/won't/don't want to do those, but I have to do something at max level so its either this or roll an alt" and more "hey, here is an ALTERNATE path for gearing for those who have time constraints or just dislike group content. It will likely be glacially slow compared to operations, but you will progress." Neither has to be superior.

 

Anyhoo, TLDR: I think the quoted post is great because it really identifies why so many forum debates go in circles. Its okay for Bioware to cater to different groups of people who want totally different things from their content (cue the, probably valid, complaints from pvp'ers wondering when their preferred content will be catered to).

[Costello]

To get a feel for the game all you have to do is look at the Dev tracker and see what the devs are talking about. At the moment it breaks down into 3 categories.

 

1) Cartel Market Sales. Its Christmas they want your Money. You came back to try out SoR they want your money. Fair enough its a business and Subbing and packing for the expansion might have been enough before freemium but now the cartel market is more important to the bottom line than the game.

 

2) Bugs. No surprise there the launch of SOR was pretty full of bugs. To be expected with a new expansion. Though perhaps for size of the new expansion and given a major bug was in the last solo quest the scope of the bugs was surprising.

 

3) Looking back at where people were 3 years ago. This is a little troubling, would have been nice to see a where the game will be going in the next year not the state of the game and what we will see added. Rather lets look back at the fun times and when people were about to play ToR for the first time with 8 class stories and 2 faction (planet) stories.

 

I found the article got things right on the whole. GSF and GSH don't really offer what the community wanted and the time and resources could have been used else where. Both RotHC and SoR where a little on the small side. Which maybe the cost of production but then there aren't enough MMO open world style features to make a year and a half wait for progression on the story viable.

[Deewe]

Finally took the time to read the article

 

A few of the class stories had lulls, but they were all solid overall (at worst) or brilliant (at best).

Don't think so. Played all the classes but the smuggler and found most of them not that great. Also they are very repetitive, so much that at some point you'd wish it stops after the first planet.

 

Shadow of Revan feels more like a cut down version of what SWTOR used to be. It's the status quo reestablished, but not as good this time.

True but guess the main reason is the budget has been mostly allocated to disciplines revamp.

 

That it uses the most iconic character in Star Wars gaming as a tease for the Real Story (Coming Soon) is just icing on this lackluster cake.

I give them +1 for trying.

 

 

Shadow of Revan's story does not provide a good reason for former players to return or new players to give it a try for the first time, but this expansion is the pinnacle (so far) of three years of streamlining. The experience of actually playing SWTOR is much better now, and less of a pain for folks who aren't in it for the MMO stuff.

Apart the major bugs and the technical issues (lag) that should not be there, kind of agree here. However the game is still not as good, polish and content wise, as others AAA MMO.

 

I'd say a 12x bonus XP would be a nice reason to return to the game, although they have to mitigate travel time sinks, because they become so obvious and boring when you only do the class story.

 

 

If you couldn't be convinced to give SWTOR a serious shot before, I don't see much here to warrant going for it now. SWTOR may still be evolving into what we all want it to be, but this newest expansion, Shadow of Revan, doesn't get it there.

I'd say the last 4 updates RoHC, GSF, Strongholds and SoR are reasons not to come back because they went away from what made SWTOR sill enjoyable: class story.

 

Then specifically GSF, is a disaster as it's not aimed at people who like space sims and most others don't care.

 

Stronghold is again not aimed at people who like furnishing their houses as too limited. Most others just use houses as GTN+mail+bank hubs.

 

Finally RoHC and SoR are thin, thinner the more recent they are.

 

However what would you expect for $20 in game that sells you gear dyes for that much and mounts you only get on one character.

 

Check out how other games do:

.

Pets:

 

Everyone gets one!

Once it’s activated, the Armored Bloodwing will be applied to all present and future characters on a single Battle.net account. It will appear in each character’s pet and mount journal.

 

Then dyes

One of the biggest changes we’re making is that dyes will no longer be unlocked per character but per account instead. When you unlock a dye after the feature pack is released, all characters on your account will have unlimited access to that color.

If you already have the same dyes unlocked on multiple characters, when you log in on additional characters, you will receive one unidentified dye for each duplicate dye already unlocked on your account.

 

All in all SWTOR still has a long road ahead to be on par with others MMO.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Deewe

[Kalfear]

 

....

 

TLDR: Bad attitude, often from experienced players, does just as much if not more to hurt group quality as players who don't know their class/role/etc from running many more hours of leveling running side quests to level(that most vets are sick of running.

 

Disagree (and you're not going to like the response but this is just enough already)

Read your post and you seem to think knowledge, experience, common curtsy, manners are bad things to be avoided in gaming.

 

You (and others that support the dumbing down of the genre....no matter what you call it, that's what you are supporting) seem to be under this baffling conclusion that its up to other players, strangers to teach you and carry you through content. I mean you don't even think it should just be friends and guildies helping you, you think it should be experienced players who are complete strangers doing it for you.

 

ITS NOT.

 

Story mode is NOT the property of (I don't want to say casual because I know some greatly skilled casual players who would be ill at the usage of casual tag in this thread by some, so the tag line being used by you and yours doesn't fit) LAZY players.

 

There is NO REASON AT ALL you should ever enter group content with strangers unprepared to carry your own weight. Be it SM, HM, Nightmare, what ever. Its just common decency to come ready to carry your own weight and do your job when you group up with strangers. The so called learning curve (which if we being honest is completely non existent in this game already as its so simplistic and easy) is completely on each player them self to know and understand.

 

Personally Im a very social player inside game.

I will answer endless questions where others have long since washed their hands of the situation

If you are honest and up front and tell me its your first run through, I will take the time to explain every step of the way, even to point where other players are complaining its not moving fast enough

 

But person comes into a 55-60 flash point in lvl 15 gear and your butt is booted.

You ask me what your interrupt is for your class (at 55-60) and there is a 50/50 chance you're left on you're own and put onto ignore

You run ahead blindly and you're toast

And you tell me, or even suggest, its my duty to carry you through a flash point (any difficulty mode) or its my job to make you a better player.

 

Welp you will be here whining about experienced players and their bad attitudes

 

Its NO ONE ELES JOB to carry you through content you are unprepared for.

 

This game has almost ZERO difficulty curve at the best of times

Take some pride and learn the basics on your own

Its NOT rocket science

 

And if you think that's the mean ol nasty experienced player holding you down.

Well I hope you don't carry that attitude into the real world with you

 

PS: And who the @$%@% are you to bad mouth anyone based on play time?

Do you know each and every persons OOC responsibilities and situations?

Some people play more then others. That doesn't mean they play to much (as you claim in your post)

Some people have very little time available.

That doesn't mean they play to little

 

People play based on their desire and availability and that's for NO ONE ELSE to judge or belittle

 

Time played does NOT create bad players or bad attitudes

 

Bad Attitudes come from demanding everything be free and given to them with no effort or learning creates bad players

I have seen lazy players who play small amounts and lazy players who play endless hours over the years

Being a lazy player who thinks others should do the work for them is NOT about play time

Its about a bad attitude that the game and other players owe them something and are there for them to use.

That everything should be easy for them

That everything and everyone should be ok with being put out for that individuals personal benefit

 

THAT'S where the worst of the worst players come from

 

NO ONE minds a player who plays 10 hours-100 hours a week and does as much as he/she can do to learn in that time frame

MANY mind the player that plays 10 hours- 100 hours a week and thinks its ok to enter a random Flash point expecting everyone else to carry them through

 

If you cant see the difference in those two players attitudes, then you probably fall in the later example.

 

Time played doesn't create bad attitudes

Experience and knowledge doesn't create bad attitudes

 

Demanding everything be easy, free, gimme gimme gimme ALWAYS creates bad attitudes

 

So fed up with hearing/reading how expecting a basic level of readiness is some how now a problem.

The PROBLEM is those that think everything should be free, ultra easy, no thinking required. Just handed to them like they deserve some sort of special standard that makes them more privileged them everyone else.

 

honestly I don't even understand why people (cant even call them players as playing denotes effort and thought) enter these games if they not ready to think for themselves, learn for themselves, work for themselves, problem solve for themselves.

 

Wouldn't the time be better spent just watching someone else play for them?

Edited December 23, 2014 by Kalfear

[RandomXChance]

Not a terrible article, but I really had a very hard time respecting the authors connection with the game with this whopper of an inaccurate line:

 

"For the past two years, the new status quo has felt like "find out what people on the forums are asking about most, and make that." That's resulted in free expansions like Galactic Starfighter, which introduced PVP fighter combat"

 

I think the regular forum posters will agree that almost no one was asking for GSF and BY FAR the most requested addition was more storyline. The author is quite obviously not in touch with what the player base has been asking for and is really just putting his own reflections onto everyone else.

Edited December 23, 2014 by RandomXChance

[LyraineAlei]

Not a terrible article, but I really had a very hard time respecting the authors connection with the game with this whopper of an inaccurate line:

 

"For the past two years, the new status quo has felt like "find out what people on the forums are asking about most, and make that." That's resulted in free expansions like Galactic Starfighter, which introduced PVP fighter combat"

 

I think the regular forum posters will agree that almost no one was asking for GSF and BY FAR the most requested addition was more storyline. The author is quite obviously not in touch with what the player base has been asking for and is really just putting his own reflections onto everyone else.

 

I agree, the article writer was reaching there. Sure people were asking for a way to speed level up through class story alone, but those truly drown under the threads of threads and threads asking for an expansion on class missions and companions.

 

As for GSF, I though more people were asking for a better tutorial for people to get the hang of how GSF works.

[LordArtemis]

The most common choice, if I remember correctly, was a Battlefront 2 style space shooter.

 

What they provided lacked twitch, joystick control, on foot combat, capital ship combat, a level playing field, and a PVE option.

 

So, though it had a few features from BF2 it was a pale shadow of that request IMO. If players are actually disappointed it doesn't surprise me. IMO it is much MUCH better than the current space combat feature, but still likely fell short of player expectations.

[agento]

Fair enough.

 

lol but you could post on them....

[JumperPenn]

Disagree (and you're not going to like the response but this is just enough already)

Read your post and you seem to think knowledge, experience, common curtsy, manners are bad things to be avoided in gaming....

Wouldn't the time be better spent just watching someone else play for them?

 

You missed what I was saying I don't know if on purpose or out of skimming my post and making assumptions.

 

First knowledge, experience, common courtesy and manners are not bad things to be avoided in gaming but plenty of people obviously have their own ideas about what common sense is let a lone courtesy and manners so to you a new player who hasn't 'mastered' their class for lack of a better word at X level might not be exercising common courtesy I might disagree. Level, role, etc all play a part in what I'd think of said player.

 

No, I don't think other players need to teach me and CARRY me something that says a lot about where you are in understanding my point in the first place. I think the 'proper' place to learn ops is through your guild but not everyone is in a guild, some people are between guilds or looking and to have a few ops under their belt then queue for it or the 'next' one in the line so to speak isn't outside of understanding to be baffling as you say. What I'd say is too many in my experience rag on these less experienced, not all of them deserve the ridicule is what I mean, that is often thrown at them. The trash talk at the beginning of the ops before they've even done anything wrong.

 

Story mode is NOT the property of (I don't want to say casual because I know some greatly skilled casual players who would be ill at the usage of casual tag in this thread by some, so the tag line being used by you and yours doesn't fit) LAZY players.

 

This is the crappy attitude I was talking about in the post that went over your head.

 

There is NO REASON AT ALL you should ever enter group content with strangers unprepared to carry your own weight. Be it SM, HM, Nightmare, what ever. Its just common decency to come ready to carry your own weight and do your job when you group up with strangers. The so called learning curve (which if we being honest is completely non existent in this game already as its so simplistic and easy) is completely on each player them self to know and understand.

 

This just shows a lack of imagination, and I'd agree there are few reasons to enter most group content unprepared to carry your own weight they exist like just being so new and ignorant that you just don't know any better. You might just decide because the game kind of suggests/pushes you try this or that FP, heroic, and even OP at the set levels. The good players try and if they are struggling ask for guidance or if they had the foresight did some research before joining said group content.

 

Personally Im a very social player inside game.

I will answer endless questions where others have long since washed their hands of the situation

If you are honest and up front and tell me its your first run through, I will take the time to explain every step of the way, even to point where other players are complaining its not moving fast enough

 

Cool, I've met more people when I ran random groups that were more annoyed than willing to help, if they'd even speak to eachother. The attitude I've come across is more about how they need to get through this 'crap as fast as possible' and where mechanics could be explained in a line or two of text they dumb it down to the simplest way to faceroll it without letting the new person learn what they should be doing if someone on a speed run who's overpowered wasn't carrying them as well as the other players who know the content.

 

But person comes into a 55-60 flash point in lvl 15 gear and your butt is booted.

You ask me what your interrupt is for your class (at 55-60) and there is a 50/50 chance you're left on you're own and put onto ignore

You run ahead blindly and you're toast

And you tell me, or even suggest, its my duty to carry you through a flash point (any difficulty mode) or its my job to make you a better player.

 

Pretty much agree 100%.

 

Welp you will be here whining about experienced players and their bad attitudes

 

Its NO ONE ELES JOB to carry you through content you are unprepared for.

 

This game has almost ZERO difficulty curve at the best of times

Take some pride and learn the basics on your own

Its NOT rocket science

 

And if you think that's the mean ol nasty experienced player holding you down.

Well I hope you don't carry that attitude into the real world with you

 

PS: And who the @$%@% are you to bad mouth anyone based on play time?

Do you know each and every persons OOC responsibilities and situations?

Some people play more then others. That doesn't mean they play to much (as you claim in your post)

Some people have very little time available.

That doesn't mean they play to little

 

People play based on their desire and availability and that's for NO ONE ELSE to judge or belittle

 

 

Said the pot calling the kettle black, on your assumption I don't know anything or need to be carried, expect to be carried because I can see people being jerks to new players that aren't asking to be carried but simply aren't up to the super elite's standards of blowing through content because they have things to do or have run it 100 times. Again this is the attitude problem I was talking about that you seem to have based on the above.

 

Also where you missed the point where I talked about the motivations of people for being jerks perhaps their motivation is that they have things to do in real life and have limited time to play. So their rationale to being a jerk on their speed runs and spamming spacebar or starting fights when they aren't the tank or the group hasn't healed or regenerated force/dissipated heat/recouped energy is that they don't have the time to deal with this s***.

 

As for judging other peoples desire and availability to play, again your lack of imagination, I can and will judge all the people acting like jerks I want. Just like you're judging me based on your perception that 'me and mine' want everything handed to us, expect you and others to carry me as you seem to see that as my desire to play or the lazy players as you want to call them because of the deep respect you have for casuals.

 

Bad Attitudes come from demanding everything be free and given to them with no effort or learning creates bad players

I have seen lazy players who play small amounts and lazy players who play endless hours over the years

Being a lazy player who thinks others should do the work for them is NOT about play time

Its about a bad attitude that the game and other players owe them something and are there for them to use.

That everything should be easy for them

That everything and everyone should be ok with being put out for that individuals personal benefit

 

THAT'S where the worst of the worst players come from

 

As I said it also comes from people who think like you seem to, that all the people out there that don't say what you say and think like you do are in support of dumbing down the game, as you see it, but you've said you aren't like this in the game that you answer questions and will explain mechanics if people tell you it is their first time through.

 

Bad attitude comes from all sorts of places I think one source is people who have had a 'lot' of experience playing to master their roles/class and then expect everyone to be at their level regardless of how long they've been playing the game or how much time they have to play the game. This is that bit where you BOLD FACED about how no one should judge others for how much time they have to play or their desire to do so.

 

So fed up with hearing/reading how expecting a basic level of readiness is some how now a problem.

 

Which wasn't what I was saying at all but you are fed up with hearing/reading that so that is what you saw/read into my post.

[LordArtemis]

In the end it is a matter of opinion, that opinion offered on an outside site that IMO is no more or less relevant than any other.

 

I personally think, despite a few stumbles from my perspective that the game is doing well and is moving in the right direction. I strongly feel the game is COMPLETELY different than it was at release.

 

Had the game launched in its current state I expect it would have done far better, but that is not an uncommon situation I would expect. Unfortunately it seems many companies ignore the current market, or do not research their target playerbase properly.

 

However, it was not a death knell by a long shot. The game changed relatively quickly, and is now better for it.

 

There is a still a long way to go IMO....but it's on the right track.

[Kryand]

The most common choice, if I remember correctly, was a Battlefront 2 style space shooter.

 

What they provided lacked twitch, joystick control, on foot combat, capital ship combat, a level playing field, and a PVE option.

 

So, though it had a few features from BF2 it was a pale shadow of that request IMO. If players are actually disappointed it doesn't surprise me. IMO it is much MUCH better than the current space combat feature, but still likely fell short of player expectations.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I probably would be playing GSF if it had no "gear" progression. Same exact problem as with normal PVP. I enjoyed the concept when it came out, but it was so laggy and unplayable that it makes Yavin 4 on 3.0 release seem reasonable. I wasn't about to waste my time on it until those problems were worked out. However, other people did waste their time on it - several hours a day - and therefore got a huge lead on ship upgrades. So, I never played it again, mostly on principle.

 

The other major problem was that nothing was shared between characters, and I didn't like having to always be on my one GSF character every time I want to play GSF. But honestly, I could deal with that if the game mode was actually any good.

[LordArtemis]

I can only speak for myself, but I probably would be playing GSF if it had no "gear" progression. Same exact problem as with normal PVP. I enjoyed the concept when it came out, but it was so laggy and unplayable that it makes Yavin 4 on 3.0 release seem reasonable. I wasn't about to waste my time on it until those problems were worked out. However, other people did waste their time on it - several hours a day - and therefore got a huge lead on ship upgrades. So, I never played it again, mostly on principle.

 

The other major problem was that nothing was shared between characters, and I didn't like having to always be on my one GSF character every time I want to play GSF. But honestly, I could deal with that if the game mode was actually any good.

 

Well, I think there is a difference with gear that provides a "bonus" and gear that is required to progress.

 

Looking at FPS games you can see that gear upgrades are offered, and progression is possible, but it does not make one a god no matter how skilled they might be...this is because the power curve is very low. This keeps the game interesting and appealing to new players while still allowing folks to progress.

[Jeweledleah]

Finally took the time to read the article

 

 

Don't think so. Played all the classes but the smuggler and found most of them not that great. Also they are very repetitive, so much that at some point you'd wish it stops after the first planet.

 

 

True but guess the main reason is the budget has been mostly allocated to disciplines revamp.

 

 

I give them +1 for trying.

 

 

 

Apart the major bugs and the technical issues (lag) that should not be there, kind of agree here. However the game is still not as good, polish and content wise, as others AAA MMO.

 

I'd say a 12x bonus XP would be a nice reason to return to the game, although they have to mitigate travel time sinks, because they become so obvious and boring when you only do the class story.

 

 

 

I'd say the last 4 updates RoHC, GSF, Strongholds and SoR are reasons not to come back because they went away from what made SWTOR sill enjoyable: class story.

 

Then specifically GSF, is a disaster as it's not aimed at people who like space sims and most others don't care.

 

Stronghold is again not aimed at people who like furnishing their houses as too limited. Most others just use houses as GTN+mail+bank hubs.

 

Finally RoHC and SoR are thin, thinner the more recent they are.

 

However what would you expect for $20 in game that sells you gear dyes for that much and mounts you only get on one character.

 

Check out how other games do:

.

Pets:

 

 

 

Then dyes

 

 

All in all SWTOR still has a long road ahead to be on par with others MMO.

 

while I agree with some of your points (including GW2 dye system which I still find to be THE best dye system of any MMO's that I've played), contrarian in me needs to point out that mounts and pets are technically on par between swtor and WoW, with swtor IMO having a bit of an edge when it comes to cartel coin mounts. why? aside from going on sale (which SWTOR mounts/pets do as well) - the price of a mount in WoW is $25.

 

SWTOR mounts tend to cost about 2000 cartel coins or 400 coins less then what $20 will buy you, and account unlock costs between 200 and 600 cartel coins. notable exception being this year's holiday mount. couple that with the fact that you get a minimum of 500 cartel coins per month just for being a subscriber. so other then holiday mount (which costs as much as typical wow mount overall) SWTOR account wide mounts are actualy cheaper.

 

in fact - unlike WoW mounts, with a bit of patience, you can get cartel coin mounts in SWTOR for no extra cost other then your subscription fee - something you cannot do in WoW (and while yes, people sell codes - its against ToS and 90% of the time, you are getting scammed out of your gold, becasue they contest the sale the next day after you redeem the code and you are left with no gold and no mount, while in SWTOR - trading cartel coin mounts on GTN is both expected AND perfectly approved/legal if you will).