Guardian/Juggernaut Vigilance/Vengeance Guide (3.0+) by Vesev and AndrewPast

[LordDavidDog]

I know the whole PvP guide is a bit of a WiP but if you guys want some help with rotation/priority for PvP feel free to pop on my stream channel - ZetsumaTM - and I can tell you how I werk it.

 

Look forward to seeing you around <3

 

PvP is broken

don't do it

[Dalfurend]

PvP is broken

don't do it

 

For venge/vigi Juggs/Guardians? Not at all. I think most people will agree that we are as close to balanced as the classes should be. Personally I am having a blast in 60 pvp on my Jugg/Guardian.

 

If you are having issues with it follow me on twitch or send me a message and we can talk about what you could do to step up your game. That goes for everyone that is interested.

 

#vigilance4lyfe

[LordDavidDog]

For venge/vigi Juggs/Guardians? Not at all. I think most people will agree that we are as close to balanced as the classes should be. Personally I am having a blast in 60 pvp on my Jugg/Guardian.

 

If you are having issues with it follow me on twitch or send me a message and we can talk about what you could do to step up your game. That goes for everyone that is interested.

 

#vigilance4lyfe

 

PvP is broken

Don't do it

[Joran-Koon]

ah repetition...effective.

 

Because I'm lazy, I will simply ask here, who's got the top jugg/gaurd parse? What is it, and who's soul do I have to crush.

[veSev]

ah repetition...effective.

 

Because I'm lazy, I will simply ask here, who's got the top jugg/gaurd parse? What is it, and who's soul do I have to crush.

 

Believe it's still Manweth at 4778 on the 1.5 mil (beastly), followed by a 4750 (?) by Kalameet on the 1 mil and, unless I've missed a resent parse, mine at 4714 on the 1 mil. I havent seen any others above 4700, but I havent really been on the forums in a few weeks. Are you close to BiS 198s yet? Curious if 5k is obtainable yet.

 

I know the whole PvP guide is a bit of a WiP but if you guys want some help with rotation/priority for PvP feel free to pop on my stream channel - ZetsumaTM - and I can tell you how I werk it.

 

Look forward to seeing you around <3

 

I might take you up on this offer. Provide no other life events take over, I will be in touch soon via here or twitch.

Edited January 25, 2015 by veSev

[hlavinkaXVX]

Believe it's still Manweth at 4778 on the 1.5 mil (beastly), followed by a 4750 (?) by Kalameet on the 1 mil and, unless I've missed a resent parse, mine at 4714 on the 1 mil. I havent seen any others above 4700, but I havent really been on the forums in a few weeks. Are you close to BiS 198s yet? Curious if 5k is obtainable yet.

 

just hit 4716 on parsec ( http://imgur.com/Fyl1CdQ ). still using the two 186 set bonuses and one new one. was hovering at 4730-50 at the end but dropped like a dingus on the last couple GCD's.

 

(probably 4700 on the dime in torparse? but the piece of junk won't login at the moment)

Edited January 25, 2015 by hlavinkaXVX

[Dalfurend]

I might take you up on this offer. Provide no other life events take over, I will be in touch soon via here or twitch.

 

Yeah man, let me know it's you when you pop in.

[Joran-Koon]

Are you close to BiS 198s yet? Curious if 5k is obtainable yet.

Had to stop gearing the jugg, they're useless floor 3 in revan. Downing content is more important to me than parse numbers but once im bored and have finished gearing my BHs, I'll work on my jugg and see if I can't get first floor 3 kill on that class.

[wadecounty]

I probably won't see Revan for a while (my guild likes to stick to 1 op til we finish it so still working on Ravagers, and people have been busy with classes back in session), but question, are the knockbacks in floor 3 on a set interval? If they are, does Unstoppable work? When I plan for it, I can pretty much get off a melee attack (except Ravage) and still get to 10+ meters before the next GCD, so I could see this as a possible strat for Jugg DPS.

 

With Warmonger you'd definitely have Charge available whenever needed, and the DPS gain from resisting the knockback would more than offset the DPS lost from disrupting your rotation to charge.

[Joran-Koon]

If it was only one knock back it'd be easy you're right...but it's not. The machine core is like a toddler throwing a tantrum and you as a jugg are thrown around like a rag doll. It's not impossible but it's damn hard. If you execute EXTREMELY well, any class can do it, but the dps loss from being unable to 100% resist certain movement imparing abilities take away those few gcds that make or break the fight.

 

Cora on the other hand is doable. Again, not easy but certainly an easier possibility than revan IMO.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Joran-Koon

[wadecounty]

OK, I guess I'll have to see it to see what can be done when I get there. I watched a video from zorz, couldn't really see a pattern to the knockbacks though as they had Hydraulics popped for a lot of it so I don't know exactly when they were going out. Also heard them calling out clock positions I believe, wasn't sure what that was about, guessing location of abberations? But not sure.

 

I'm just curious if the knockbacks go out on a set interval or if they're truly 'random', basically.

 

Also saw an interesting post on another site on a debate about the benefits of clipping Ravage that I found entertaining, the OP clearly pointed out you don't actually gain APM by doing so as you're still restricted by the 12 second cooldown of Shatter/Plasma Brand, and would have to use an inferior filler if you delayed that, but people swore up and down they were gaining damage from doing so. Any thoughts?

 

Personally, the only benefits I see personally are ease of rotation (can queue up next ability quicker to account for lag) and in a live Ops situation to be able to move quicker.

[Joran-Koon]

The purple explodes and in the middle of all of them the pull in happens. In order to effectively use unremitting you would have to be out a way while executing the purple circles (perfectly might I add) just so you could jump back in at the EXACT right time and if you miss it, down the hole you go and if you miss the purple circle mech, off the edge you go.

 

As for clipping ravage, it is a dps increase. you said the gcd of shatter and overhead are on their CD but throwing a vicious in is far from a "sub-par" ability. and even if you end up doing a sundering, its one gcd ahead of where you would have been if you didn't clip ravage.

Moving in ops is helped by it as well.

[wadecounty]

The purple explodes and in the middle of all of them the pull in happens. In order to effectively use unremitting you would have to be out a way while executing the purple circles (perfectly might I add) just so you could jump back in at the EXACT right time and if you miss it, down the hole you go and if you miss the purple circle mech, off the edge you go.

 

I'm still not really understanding it at all. You have to realize the way you're explaining it, when you watch the video, literally the only thing you see is an occasional knockback, nothing else thanks to Hydraulic, so I'm having trouble visualizing this.

 

I haven't read a guide on the fight or anything (I don't know of any and don't usually look fights up til I'm close to doing them/seen them anyways), and none of the mechanics you're describing are present at all in story mode.

 

As for clipping ravage, it is a dps increase. you said the gcd of shatter and overhead are on their CD but throwing a vicious in is far from a "sub-par" ability. and even if you end up doing a sundering, its one gcd ahead of where you would have been if you didn't clip ravage.

Moving in ops is helped by it as well.

 

No... you missed the point, you can't throw in a Vicious Slash or Sunder, because you're still limited by the CD of Shatter, and if you threw one of those in, you'd push back Shatter by 1.2 seconds (as clipping Ravage only gains you .3 seconds at most).

 

Example, you've just hit Shatter, so now you have 7 GCD's until you can Shatter again.

 

GCD 1

GCD 2

GCD 3

GCD 4

GCD 5

GCD 6

GCD 7

Shatter

 

Now, let's say you Ravaged in GCD's 1-2, so you saved those .3 seconds right at the start. Where would you use them? Every attack comes out a little bit sooner, but you'd either have to delay Shatter by 1.2 seconds for something, or wait .3 seconds for it to come up, at GCD 8 either way.

 

Make sense?

 

I agree fully with the benefit it gives by allowing you to break off and move sooner, I just think the point about it basically not impacting parsing on a dummy is true, and the suggestion of clipping it for dummy parses isn't actually supported when you think about it logically, unless you're also saying to delay Shatter by a GCD (well, 1.2 seconds) to make use of those extra .3 seconds you gain everytime.

Edited January 26, 2015 by wadecounty

[drummerinthesun]

That particular post is quite hilarious. People saying the same thing over and over, and not understanding what the OP was trying to explain at all. Wade, you nailed it.

 

Edit: Another way to think about it from my post there: The "well they add up to 4 gcds over an X minute parse" argument is irrelevant. Let's say I have a basket that I can only fit 12 apples into, and I can load them in one at a time at a rate of 1 per second. Let's also say that every once in a while I can load an apple into the basket at 0.7 seconds. I can still only get 12 apples in my basket, because I physically can't fit anymore in there. I can repeat this loading of apples tons of times and I may have "saved 6 seconds over X amount of time," but I haven't done anything with those 6 seconds because I physically CAN'T do anything with those 0.3 seconds X times.

Edited January 26, 2015 by drummerinthesun

[Joran-Koon]

I'm still not really understanding it at all. You have to realize the way you're explaining it, when you watch the video, literally the only thing you see is an occasional knockback, nothing else thanks to Hydraulic, so I'm having trouble visualizing this.

 

I haven't read a guide on the fight or anything (I don't know of any and don't usually look fights up til I'm close to doing them/seen them anyways), and none of the mechanics you're describing are present at all in story mode.

Sorry m8, the reason you don't see any of the knockbacks is because in our released kill vids we execute the mechanics 100% properly (Raulos may have died to one of them on one of our vids, i don't remember). In order to stop being forced off the edge by purple explosion, you have to face it. If you're off by even a bit or executing a move that turns your character's body you'll be blown off the edge. Won't say more than that but there are little intricacies to executing this mechanic that make jugg dps tricky.

No... you missed the point, you can't throw in a Vicious Slash or Sunder, because you're still limited by the CD of Shatter, and if you threw one of those in, you'd push back Shatter by 1.2 seconds (as clipping Ravage only gains you .3 seconds at most).

 

Example, you've just hit Shatter, so now you have 7 GCD's until you can Shatter again.

 

GCD 1

GCD 2

GCD 3

GCD 4

GCD 5

GCD 6

GCD 7

Shatter

 

Now, let's say you Ravaged in GCD's 1-2, so you saved those .3 seconds right at the start. Where would you use them? Every attack comes out a little bit sooner, but you'd either have to delay Shatter by 1.2 seconds for something, or wait .3 seconds for it to come up, at GCD 8 either way.

 

Make sense?

 

I agree fully with the benefit it gives by allowing you to break off and move sooner, I just think the point about it basically not impacting parsing on a dummy is true, and the suggestion of clipping it for dummy parses isn't actually supported when you think about it logically, unless you're also saying to delay Shatter by a GCD (well, 1.2 seconds) to make use of those extra .3 seconds you gain everytime.

Way to much thought lol. When my APM goes up, so does my dps, When it goes down, so does my dps. I also parse to practice performance for raid, and more often than not you'll need to move (clip to get out) or delay shatter, overhead, etc. to execute a mechanic.

 

the importance of parsing, in my opinion, is based in the foundational rotation you learn and the ability you gain by being able to pick up again after an interruption at any spot. This is why I don't parse to be on leaderboards. I might do it when I'm bored and cleared all content on the class but I don't measure myself or anyone else by their ability to put out the "perfect parse".

Theory crafting a rotation is fine as long as you don't let what you think is the best override what is the best per scenario.

[Joran-Koon]

That particular post is quite hilarious. People saying the same thing over and over, and not understanding what the OP was trying to explain at all. Wade, you nailed it.

 

Edit: Another way to think about it from my post there: The "well they add up to 4 gcds over an X minute parse" argument is irrelevant. Let's say I have a basket that I can only fit 12 apples into, and I can load them in one at a time at a rate of 1 per second. Let's also say that every once in a while I can load an apple into the basket at 0.7 seconds. I can still only get 12 apples in my basket, because I physically can't fit anymore in there. I can repeat this loading of apples tons of times and I may have "saved 6 seconds over X amount of time," but I haven't done anything with those 6 seconds because I physically CAN'T do anything with those 0.3 seconds X times.

 

ah and so we introduced alacrity to change the size of the basket...not a big deal in this tier but can you imagine in a few updates! 1.1 ravage here we go!

[drummerinthesun]

ah and so we introduced alacrity to change the size of the basket...not a big deal in this tier but can you imagine in a few updates! 1.1 ravage here we go!

 

Definitely looking forward to that, but alacrity is actually not changing the size of the basket, just making it so I can put apples into it at a faster rate, since we're still forced into Shatter's cooldown being the limiting factor. Your post about it being crucial for actual boss fights with mechanics is spot on. Clipping should be primarily to realign your rotation based on lag, movement, and mechanics, so as to nullify those effects on your dps. It does not directly lead to an increase in dps like it does for carnage (unless they are limited by a proc's ICD as well. Not sure, I haven't played carnage in 3.0).

 

Speaking of alacrity, I saw oofalong suggest 1 alacrity enhancement for Annihilation. Is there any merit in doing this for Vengeance as well? Since we're decently deep into surge's DR when around 400 rating, would it be beneficial to start adding it in slowly at some predetermined ratio to surge?

Edited January 26, 2015 by drummerinthesun

[wadecounty]

Yeah, to me the real value in clipping it is for things like finishing your ravage and then getting the hell out of a circle in time, which is huge in some fights.

 

And that's fine if you can't get into detail on how the knockbacks work, I'll see it eventually, just not really understanding it yet as I haven't reached that fight yet. I am looking forward to it though. Although with my group possibly losing 1 of our tanks indefinitely I may end up forced back into tanking sooner than later.

[drummerinthesun]

Another thing I've been meaning to get opinions on, is the old Weaponmaster set bonus. Is everyone really giving up 8% Ravage damage in favor of an autocrit Impale once per minute? That seems so wasteful to me. Thoughts?

[wadecounty]

Another thing I've been meaning to get opinions on, is the old Weaponmaster set bonus. Is everyone really giving up 8% Ravage damage in favor of an autocrit Impale once per minute? That seems so wasteful to me. Thoughts?

 

Personally I am not, but I can see the value in both set bonuses depending on the fight. That said, its weird...

 

Last tier, we had a lot of fights where overall DPS wasn't that important, but burst DPS for specific phases was. This tier, it feels like we have more sustained checks (Torque, Underlurker, Walkers to name a few) and less burst checks. The Impale one would be nice for burst checks, as you could control when you trigger it fairly well since Saber Throw doesn't HAVE to be in the regular rotation, but for sustained I think the Ravage one clearly comes out on top.

 

So yeah, I'd say hang onto the old set bonus, and maybe depending on fight change out? And if there's a fight where you know you'll need the burst for short periods, the Impale one will probably come out on top. Now what fight is like that in current progression, I don't know there is one... Maybe Commanders? Haven't seen that on HM yet. Or maybe for certain parts of the Revan fight, <shrug>

[veSev]

Nice conversation going there fellas. I cant say I disagree on any particular point, but that bit on Revan, although not the full extent, is going to be rough when I get there. Looking forward to that fight highly.

 

Another thing I've been meaning to get opinions on, is the old Weaponmaster set bonus. Is everyone really giving up 8% Ravage damage in favor of an autocrit Impale once per minute? That seems so wasteful to me. Thoughts?

 

Umm I would say this, I find the new 6 piece is a quality raiding set bonus. It gives me more mobility by not relying on finishing MS/Ravage to get out the bulk of my damage. However, it is a lengthy cooldown, so I would hesitate to say that it's the better set bonus for every fight. The old 2 piece is good all around right now. This will probably not be the case in the future as we gain more tiers of gear, but right now you can run it without seeing any true diminish in numbers provided the fight allows you to complete MS/Ravage successfully often.

[GrandLordMenace]

Personally I am not, but I can see the value in both set bonuses depending on the fight. That said, its weird...

 

Last tier, we had a lot of fights where overall DPS wasn't that important, but burst DPS for specific phases was. This tier, it feels like we have more sustained checks (Torque, Underlurker, Walkers to name a few) and less burst checks. The Impale one would be nice for burst checks, as you could control when you trigger it fairly well since Saber Throw doesn't HAVE to be in the regular rotation, but for sustained I think the Ravage one clearly comes out on top.

 

So yeah, I'd say hang onto the old set bonus, and maybe depending on fight change out? And if there's a fight where you know you'll need the burst for short periods, the Impale one will probably come out on top. Now what fight is like that in current progression, I don't know there is one... Maybe Commanders? Haven't seen that on HM yet. Or maybe for certain parts of the Revan fight, <shrug>

 

IMHO I plan on raiding with the new set bonus for a few weeks and compare my averages with the Master Strike one, but currently I'd be betting on the old bonus at least for the next 2 or 3 tiers. If however, I can match my DPS on the new set bonus with the old set bonus, or am within 50 DPS of it, I plan on switching to the 6pc for burst.

[veSev]

IMHO I plan on raiding with the new set bonus for a few weeks and compare my averages with the Master Strike one, but currently I'd be betting on the old bonus at least for the next 2 or 3 tiers. If however, I can match my DPS on the new set bonus with the old set bonus, or am within 50 DPS of it, I plan on switching to the 6pc for burst.

 

Given that I am only 2/5 in HM Ravagers, I feel like the difference is minimal on those boss in particular. Wish I had kept my logs, but I have been pulling 4200-4300 on Sparky w/ and w/o the new set bonus. Bulo can be chaotic at times mixed with being a barrel carrier so I range between 3k-3700. I only killed him once without the new 6 piece. I believe it was a 3300-3400, but that was three weeks ago so not sure if that's entirely accurate.

 

I feel like the new set bonus just benefits moving fights where I may not get that final tick of MS/Ravage in consistently, so that auto crit can somewhat make up for that loss of damage down the road. However, it may be so minimal that it's unnoticeable.

[veSev]

Figured I'd post these here for you guys to view. I have 3/5 HM Ravagers and 1/5 HM ToS Videos from a Guardian PoV right now. Hopefully, I will have more in next week from ToS. But here they are:

 

Malaphar

Sparky

Bulo

Torque

[hlavinkaXVX]

PB hit 4793 parsec on the 1m dummy - http://i.imgur.com/moO6p9G.jpg

translates to 4760 on torparse - http://torparse.com/view.php?tid=fa77f90ca79511e49a64002590d9d1b8