Guardian/Juggernaut Vigilance/Vengeance Guide (3.0+) by Vesev and AndrewPast

[GrandLordMenace]

Was wondering about the discussion on Crit vs Power and where that took place if any one can link me to it so I can look over the numbers and test myself. I am finding it hard to believe that you really need 300 Crit, instead of just getting it to 100 and stacking Power, same with strength now that the extra is gone, I dont see the point of Augmenting strength.

 

The discussion between crit vs power never took place, not on live forums anyway.

 

For "reliable" dps though, I truly think around 200-300 crit is necessary, and in regards to STR augs, it's a pretty difficult question.

 

The Consular buff does slant things SLIGHTLY towards mainstat, not enough to be a big factor for now so we'll leave that out.

 

Besides that, the simple thing is that the difference is negligible. Sentinels didn't have a mainstat boost, so the debate was pretty big for them pre 3.0, regardless most still ran mainstat. I think the argument is mostly placebo, power will win out on average but mainstat will win in record parsing, which I think stands up to current testing.

 

Also what stims and adrenals are we all using? I've been sticking to old stuff due to laziness when parsing >.>

Edited December 15, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[GrandLordMenace]

Was horrible uptime on DoTs but I'll take it.

 

http://imgur.com/QpHErkE

 

4120 ish on 1.5 mil dummy

 

Gear: http://imgur.com/rUPX9nv

Edited December 15, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[darth_psychose]

Are you intentionally running old 2pc?

 

Just curious.

 

I think sustained DPS with old 2pc Weaponmaster might be higher but with current ops being such movement and burst focused the 6pc probably wins out in on boss DPS.

 

 

yeah i'm intentionally running this 2pc. with a 25s cd saber throw, and 12s on plasma brand we can say we cast 2MS in 1saber throw, personally i crit so often on overhead slash that i think this 6pc sux, but in focus spec this 6pc rox. Just a personnal feeling

[GrandLordMenace]

yeah i'm intentionally running this 2pc. with a 25s cd saber throw, and 12s on plasma brand we can say we cast 2MS in 1saber throw, personally i crit so often on overhead slash that i think this 6pc sux, but in focus spec this 6pc rox. Just a personnal feeling

 

I think that's fair. for now I'm going to keep the 6pc in my guide because I don't like even more of a reliance on MS especially with the Ops as melee, and in our case, Master Strike unfriendly as they are

 

Also I like having the 6pc for respeccability.

[vadess]

This is awesome! Thanks so much for the guide. Will put it to good use while I'm levelling.

[wadecounty]

I think the way to go would be to carry both armorings and be able to swap out set bonus depending on the fight. There are still some fights with long periods of sustained damage where a Ravage bonus could be superior, just going off story mode here but unless they change radically for hard mode, Master/Blaster fight, Corotanni (mostly 2nd phase but first phase at times as well depending on RNG with the bird), Underlurker somewhat, and even Revan (I left out Sparky and Malaphar because those fights are jokes even on hard mode).

 

What I'd be interested in is the average dps over 1 minute with the Ravage set bonus, and average over 1 minute with the 6 piece. It would also be interesting to see average DPS over 30 seconds with Ravage set bonus compared to 6 piece, and to see exactly at what point the Ravage set bonus (on average) eclipses the 6 piece version. I'd imagine you would need at least 3 Ravages to pull ahead, which is at least 30 seconds or so, maybe more when you factor in the 40 or so strength you miss out on from the armorings.

 

By the time we hit the next gear tier, I think the strength loss from 186 to 204 gear will be large enough that the Ravage set bonus becomes obsolete.

Edited December 17, 2014 by wadecounty

[darth_psychose]

I think that's fair. for now I'm going to keep the 6pc in my guide because I don't like even more of a reliance on MS especially with the Ops as melee, and in our case, Master Strike unfriendly as they are

 

Also I like having the 6pc for respeccability.

 

i did a mistake. When i explain to you my impressions about the 6pc i thought the auto crit proc on saber throw use (every 25s) i didn't notice there was a 1min cd. it confirmed my first thoughts about this 6pc and i definitly continue with the 186 MS +8%..

 

ps : i noticed in french client the vindicator's 4pc is : +8% dmg on blade storm ... (not reduces minimal range of saber throw) dat tooltip trad bro ..

 

parse with 192 MH

 

By the time we hit the next gear tier, I think the strength loss from 186 to 204 gear will be large enough that the Ravage set bonus becomes obsolete.

 

the loss form 186 to 204 is going to be : 2 x 30 = 60str // 60str = 12.6 dmg bonus [ (60 + (60x5%)) x 0.20 ]

 

note sure it's going to create a huge loss of dmg.

 

186 114str

192 124str

198 134str

204 144str

Edited December 18, 2014 by darth_psychose

[GrandLordMenace]

i did a mistake. When i explain to you my impressions about the 6pc i thought the auto crit proc on saber throw use (every 25s) i didn't notice there was a 1min cd. it confirmed my first thoughts about this 6pc and i definitly continue with the 186 MS +8%..

 

ps : i noticed in french client the vindicator's 4pc is : +8% dmg on blade storm ... (not reduces minimal range of saber throw) dat tooltip trad bro ..

 

parse with 192 MH

 

 

 

the loss form 186 to 204 is going to be : 2 x 30 = 60str // 60str = 12.6 dmg bonus [ (60 + (60x5%)) x 0.20 ]

 

note sure it's going to create a huge loss of dmg.

 

186 114str

192 124str

198 134str

204 144str

 

Damn. How is the bonus treating you in raids?

[darth_psychose]

sorry, don't understand what u mean. Edited December 18, 2014 by darth_psychose

[GrandLordMenace]

sorry, don't understand what u mean.

 

Well what numbers are you pulling in a raiding situation I mean

[darth_psychose]

on the second week after 3.0 early access

 

walker 8nm : 3500

underlurker 8nm : 3k5-3k6

sparky 8hm : 4k7

revan 8nm : 3k

 

still no raid with the stuff upgrade

[veSev]

Finally back in town and hit this first try last night, considering it beat my previous best I kind of stopped and passed out afterwards haha: 4333. Other than 1 implant and 1 relic, I am still rocking all 186s. And with the decent to horrid crit rates in that parse, I am sure 4400 is within reach in my gear so I will parse some more this weekend and see what I can hit.

 

Anyways, here is my catch up from some of the posts I saw since I left:

 

Was wondering about the discussion on Crit vs Power and where that took place if any one can link me to it so I can look over the numbers and test myself. I am finding it hard to believe that you really need 300 Crit, instead of just getting it to 100 and stacking Power, same with strength now that the extra is gone, I dont see the point of Augmenting strength.

 

Critical rating has always been a personal preference. I have experienced more consistent parses, both in raids and dummy parses, by using 2 full pieces of crit. Of course, this is also dependent on your personal rotation. The Guardian rotation is far more malleable than other classes, so dependent on your priorities one build may benefit your play style more than another.

 

yeah i'm intentionally running this 2pc. with a 25s cd saber throw, and 12s on plasma brand we can say we cast 2MS in 1saber throw, personally i crit so often on overhead slash that i think this 6pc sux, but in focus spec this 6pc rox. Just a personnal feeling

 

Personally, I think by using the 2 186 Weaponmaster set pieces and the 4 piece Vindicator 192+ set pieces that your putting more RNG into your parses, whether in raid or dummy. However, I can see this being a better dummy parsing option to have to "top" parse. However, I will attempt to test this thoroughly once I can get the 4 piece in 192s or better. Being that Ive only done SM and attempted HM since launch, been gone the last two weeks though, I am pretty much parsing 4k+ on every fight with the exception of the final fight in both instances since there is a lot of down time, so I would think that have an auto crit over 8%+ to MS damage would be a better option with the constant movement in the fights.

 

Also, thanks everyone for the praise of the guide.

[MBloomberg]

just got a coule new set pieces this week, which now im running the old 2 piece vindicator + the new 2 piece vindicator and the old 2 piece weaponmaster, parsed a quick 500k, hit 4350, then went to a mill and hit 4200.

my gear situation: DM FR, Rev SA, 198 implant, rest min/maxed 186's, running all power aug's, i am 3 points above the accurcay cap(761), 24.7% crit (273), 67.7 surge(315), but cant possibly see how some of your guys surge is upwards of 70%+ already, unless some of you are running surge aug's which i doubt

 

Am i missing something?

[veSev]

just got a coule new set pieces this week, which now im running the old 2 piece vindicator + the new 2 piece vindicator and the old 2 piece weaponmaster, parsed a quick 500k, hit 4350, then went to a mill and hit 4200.

my gear situation: DM FR, Rev SA, 198 implant, rest min/maxed 186's, running all power aug's, i am 3 points above the accurcay cap(761), 24.7% crit (273), 67.7 surge(315), but cant possibly see how some of your guys surge is upwards of 70%+ already, unless some of you are running surge aug's which i doubt

 

Am i missing something?

 

There are a few ways to do this, but your sacrificing augments to do so typically. I know some you can use 6 Accuracy slots + 2 Accuracy augments to hit cap and remain above 70% Surge. I tried this but was not a fan of the results.

 

I'd also suggest try Might augs too. Our class/spec is still crit dependent more so than other classes, because the majority of our damage is weapon damage, so running Might would probably be a bit more beneficial. Of course this is a personal preference.

[holmeskywalkr]

Personally, I think by using the 2 186 Weaponmaster set pieces and the 4 piece Vindicator 192+ set pieces that your putting more RNG into your parses, whether in raid or dummy. However, I can see this being a better dummy parsing option to have to "top" parse. However, I will attempt to test this thoroughly once I can get the 4 piece in 192s or better. Being that Ive only done SM and attempted HM since launch, been gone the last two weeks though, I am pretty much parsing 4k+ on every fight with the exception of the final fight in both instances since there is a lot of down time, so I would think that have an auto crit over 8%+ to MS damage would be a better option with the constant movement in the fights.

 

Never forget council' fingers mate, he made 4570+, time to swallow your "pride"

Edited December 20, 2014 by holmeskywalkr

[veSev]

Never forget council' fingers mate, he made 4570+, time to swallow your "pride"

 

Yeah I know man.....but still probably had the least amount of NiM Council time among any of the DPS Jugg/Guards who were pulling it. And sadly, I probably wont get another shot at it til my groups are 10/10 HM ToS/Rav.

Edited December 21, 2014 by veSev

[Anton_RUS]

Hello, I've done a few logs with my noob gear: http://i9.pixs.ru/storage/9/1/8/Screenshot_4440915_15298918.jpg

And take this logs: http://i9.pixs.ru/storage/9/0/4/DPS15miljp_9972664_15298904.jpg

http://i9.pixs.ru/storage/9/2/5/2jpg_1364963_15298925.jpg

I have 1 question. How much APM do we have as vengeance jugger?

Edited December 24, 2014 by Anton_RUS

[veSev]

Hello, I've done a few logs with my noob gear: http://i9.pixs.ru/storage/9/1/8/Screenshot_4440915_15298918.jpg

And take this logs: http://i9.pixs.ru/storage/9/0/4/DPS15miljp_9972664_15298904.jpg

http://i9.pixs.ru/storage/9/2/5/2jpg_1364963_15298925.jpg

I have 1 question. How much APM do we have as vengeance jugger?

 

Between 35-37 is typically the top end of APM, so looks like your doing well.

Edited December 24, 2014 by veSev

[veSev]

Well, I finally got my 2 piece and lucked out on a MH and parse some. Nothing to stellar yet, but hit a new personal best in 3.0 of 4462.

[Anton_RUS]

Well, I finally got my 2 piece and lucked out on a MH and parse some. Nothing to stellar yet, but hit a new personal best in 3.0 of 4462.

Force Stasis is a bad choice

[Manweth]

I used 6 acc. + 1 acc augment to get 99.88% accuracy with a mix of 198 192 acc pieces.

 

Using 7 acc pieces are severely limiting imho.

 

Also, isn't 300 crit a bit too much? I saw a 2.40+% with 133 rating, anything above that enters the DNR curve.

 

Finally, I have 6 set bonus.

 

6p bonus is ****. Total ****.

 

I'm running a 4p + old sentinel 2p bonus (MS dmg. increase) which yielded an average of 150 more dps. the 6p bonus parses were around 4.3-4.45 while the 4p+2p version pushed the boundaries of 4.7.

 

Need ideas about alacrity. Using 6 acc + 3 surge pieces, I used 1 alacrity piece for the final free piece, but I'm not sure. Not entirely anyway. Any feedback on alacrity return and how it affects is welcome.

 

Usin full Overkill augments. The discovery of the ability of replacing all the crit lost from losing all that STR by just 100 rating was a srs wake up call for me. I slotted 2 mods and 1 crit enhancements, sitting at a comfortable 23.16% crit with 185 rating, power at 2350 giving 540.5 bonus damage. Meanwhile, 3768 STR giving 753.7 bonus dmg. 14 pieces of STR gives 1.71 crit%, while losing out on 21,84 exxtra bonus damage. I mean, it looks like an even deal.

 

Undecided on augs as well.

 

Edit: Gear is 192 with a few 198 mods in between. MH is 192.

 

I have no idea if I'm doing well for the gear, or doing bad, or average, or stellar.

 

Srsly, can someone tell me if 4.5-4.6ish parse is good or bad for this gear, I've tried over 10 variations to max. dps already, but for all I know, I might have already far above any HM requirements...

 

Though I gotta say, aside from an Assault commando sometimes pulling ridicilous 4.5s in some boss fights with crazy movement, I always take top spot in deeps, so I don't reckon its too bad. That being said, my rotation is %4-5 flawed because of old reflexes, still trying to iron those out.

 

Edit2: I cannot believe you actually advise people against taking True Harmony.

 

Force Speed on Enure is PRICELESS on almost all bosses, especially in HM. The twin walkers without Enure Speed would be a certifiable nightmare for me.

 

Let's not kid ourselves, we ALL need the speed.

 

FINAL edit: Am I the only top end guardian NOT having written a guide now?

Edited December 24, 2014 by Manweth

[veSev]

I used 6 acc. + 1 acc augment to get 99.88% accuracy with a mix of 198 192 acc pieces.

 

Using 7 acc pieces are severely limiting imho.

 

Personally, I have always attempted to run 100% because our class is a little different than the majority of DoT classes. We rely on our DoTs to stabilize our parses and our heavy hitters to build them. If we miss say 5% on DoTs and one of the three big hitters than we are missing a lot of damage. And in truth, I have always geared my toon for raiding. I parse in my raiding set up.

 

Also, isn't 300 crit a bit too much? I saw a 2.40+% with 133 rating, anything above that enters the DNR curve.

 

Based on what Ive seen/read from those in the community that "run the numbers", 300 crit is nearing the edge of the DR curve where crit become increasingly useless. However, Ive had more successful parses with running 2 pieces of crit. Running full power or even minimal crit, my parses take a dive. However, I think running full power in raids is probably a good idea as it places less variables on your numbers in a raid. Ive parsed anywhere between 3.5k-4.5k on he first 3 bosses in Ravagers. Part of this is add placement and mechanics, but part of it may be the amount of crit I run.

 

I'm running a 4p + old sentinel 2p bonus (MS dmg. increase) which yielded an average of 150 more dps. the 6p bonus parses were around 4.3-4.45 while the 4p+2p version pushed the boundaries of 4.7.

 

Personally, I think this will be the way to dummy parse. However, raiding I would think, being that I dont have the 6 piece, that the auto crit Impale/Overhead Slash would be the way to go. Reason being, I dont think there is enough up time on most the bosses to say that MS/Ravage will be used enough to justify both the loss in Strength and the loss of an auto crit. As I said in an earlier post, I will test this more once I get into HMs because I probably wont have the 6 piece til I am mostly 198s.

 

Also, I'd very much like to see a screen shot of the 4.7k parse. Curious what your rotation looks like.

 

Need ideas about alacrity. Using 6 acc + 3 surge pieces, I used 1 alacrity piece for the final free piece, but I'm not sure. Not entirely anyway. Any feedback on alacrity return and how it affects is welcome.

 

Usin full Overkill augments. The discovery of the ability of replacing all the crit lost from losing all that STR by just 100 rating was a srs wake up call for me. I slotted 2 mods and 1 crit enhancements, sitting at a comfortable 23.16% crit with 185 rating, power at 2350 giving 540.5 bonus damage. Meanwhile, 3768 STR giving 753.7 bonus dmg. 14 pieces of STR gives 1.71 crit%, while losing out on 21,84 exxtra bonus damage. I mean, it looks like an even deal.

 

Undecided on augs as well.

 

I found alacrity useless for this spec. I tried running it mix with surge, replacing surge, and as augs, but it just didnt seem to benefit us. This along with how it changed the MS/Ravage clipping. I was struggling to clip effectively since I have been clipping at .3 as long as Ive been parsing.

 

I am still an advocate of crit being a placebo for us. If low crit works for you, keep it. If higher crit works for you, keep it. As far as gearing goes as a whole, if your keeping up with the pack at the very least than keep with it.

 

Srsly, can someone tell me if 4.5-4.6ish parse is good or bad for this gear, I've tried over 10 variations to max. dps already, but for all I know, I might have already far above any HM requirements...

 

If we are talking dummy parses I'd say your doing well. I mean I hit that 4460 last night with averaging around 4350-4400 only having a 2 piece of the new 192s, 192 implants, and 1 192 relic. Outside of those slots, I am still rocking all 186s. Being that DPS hasnt been a question for me, I would say your far above the HM requirements.

 

Edit2: I cannot believe you actually advise people against taking True Harmony.

 

Force Speed on Enure is PRICELESS on almost all bosses, especially in HM. The twin walkers without Enure Speed would be a certifiable nightmare for me.

 

There are very fight specific utilities to which I really didnt dig into. True Harmony is one. I probably should take apart that section and simply add my suggestions under each utility when to run it. Something I will probably do when I have a bit more time.

 

But as far as the walkers go, if your the bomb runner I can see that being helpful, but the fight is build around not standing in circles or moving out of the group when you have a grenade. If Im just swapping between Unit 1/2 than I just leap between the two and shift a few steps left or right when I get a red circle. As far as the Karagga pull, if you have a sort of set placement for where people run than there isnt a reason you need it other than you cant trust your group lol.

 

FINAL edit: Am I the only top end guardian NOT having written a guide now?

 

Make one boss. I mean its only Rydarus, AndrewPast, and I that have one? Believe that is it, but I threw out the suggestion of bring all the top Guardians together for a "mega" guide before 3.0 dropped.

 

Edit: **** this a long post lol

 

Edit: Making this post a little longer for my new personal best parse: 4621

Edited December 25, 2014 by veSev

[Manweth]

Used the 6p bonus for this record parse, with 23.97% crit and 72.14% surge. MH 192.

 

The overall crit rating is 40% with freakishly nice crit ratings on MS last hit and OS. No misses. %99.88 acc.

 

There is one FOrce push that shouldn't be there, misclick -_-

 

Here is the link to screenshot.

Godly Lucky Parse

 

I don't think I'm gonna top this for a looooooooooooong time, I usually hit around 4.55-4.6 on average.

 

It must be some sort of divine irony to give me best parse while rocking the 6p set bonus instead of 4p+2p.

 

Edit: holy ****t dude 43% crit on your 4621 parse, that's crazy. I'd be knocking on hea....uh, 4.8's door if I had that

Edited December 25, 2014 by Manweth

[Anton_RUS]

Used the 6p bonus for this record parse, with 23.97% crit and 72.14% surge. MH 192.

 

The overall crit rating is 40% with freakishly nice crit ratings on MS last hit and OS. No misses. %99.88 acc.

 

There is one FOrce push that shouldn't be there, misclick -_-

 

Here is the link to screenshot.

Godly Lucky Parse

 

I don't think I'm gonna top this for a looooooooooooong time, I usually hit around 4.55-4.6 on average.

 

It must be some sort of divine irony to give me best parse while rocking the 6p set bonus instead of 4p+2p.

 

Edit: holy ****t dude 43% crit on your 4621 parse, that's crazy. I'd be knocking on hea....uh, 4.8's door if I had that

OMG crits...56% crit of Overhead slash, 50% dispatch, but I think that need more crit rating. This lucky log don't help to you in ops.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Anton_RUS

[veSev]

Used the 6p bonus for this record parse, with 23.97% crit and 72.14% surge. MH 192.

 

The overall crit rating is 40% with freakishly nice crit ratings on MS last hit and OS. No misses. %99.88 acc.

 

There is one FOrce push that shouldn't be there, misclick -_-

 

Here is the link to screenshot.

Godly Lucky Parse

 

I don't think I'm gonna top this for a looooooooooooong time, I usually hit around 4.55-4.6 on average.

 

It must be some sort of divine irony to give me best parse while rocking the 6p set bonus instead of 4p+2p.

 

Edit: holy ****t dude 43% crit on your 4621 parse, that's crazy. I'd be knocking on hea....uh, 4.8's door if I had that

 

Idk dude, Id rather take that 50%+ on OHS and 38% on MS. Either way, both our parses are RNGesus crit parses. Way above our averages. I am sitting around 4400 on average right now. Although, I cant wait to see a 5k parse from a Guardian/Juggernaut.