Guardian/Juggernaut Vigilance/Vengeance Guide (3.0+) by Vesev and AndrewPast

[veSev]

OMG crits...56% crit of Overhead slash, 50% dispatch, but I think that need more crit rating. This lucky log don't help to you in ops.

 

Parsing does very little for Ops other than creating muscle memory for your rotation or establishing a baseline DPS for your current gear.

[PavSalco]

Since Might Augments are slightly better for Juggs, what Deft Mod should I put into my gear?

 

Unlettered Deft Mod 36 or Deft Mod 36A? Rydarus in his guide on dulfy says that the unlettered mod is better, but unlike Might Augments it is Power oriented while 36A has more strength.

Edited December 25, 2014 by PavSalco

[veSev]

Since Might Augments are slightly better for Juggs, what Deft Mod should I put into my gear?

 

Unlettered Deft Mod 36 or Deft Mod 36A? Rydarus in his guide on dulfy says that the unlettered mod is better, but unlike Might Augments it is Power oriented while 36A has more strength.

 

Ive always taken unlettered mods because if you add the power+main stat in the unlettered vs the lettered, the unlettered increases your bonus damage better. However, this is counter to my opinion on augments. I parse a TON and have tried both extensively and the difference is minimal in my opinion. All of my top parses have come from using Might augs, but Overkill might be a better raiding option. If you want a better break down of augments and what to use, I found the recent Ootinicast that had KBN and Oofalong on to talk theorycrafting rather insightful.

[wadecounty]

Ive always taken unlettered mods because if you add the power+main stat in the unlettered vs the lettered, the unlettered increases your bonus damage better. However, this is counter to my opinion on augments. I parse a TON and have tried both extensively and the difference is minimal in my opinion. All of my top parses have come from using Might augs, but Overkill might be a better raiding option. If you want a better break down of augments and what to use, I found the recent Ootinicast that had KBN and Oofalong on to talk theorycrafting rather insightful.

 

I don't think comparing unlettered mods and lettered mods to might/power augments is fair. The lettered mods actually have less overall DPS stats when you add Strength and Power together than the unlettered do, whereas the augments have the same exact amount of mainstat or power.

 

That being said, I do usually go for the lettered mods of 1 tier higher than an unlettered mod, for the reason that the total stats is about the same but the higher tier lettered mod will have more endurance, and if the DPS stats are equal but I can add more buffer to take a hit for my healers, I might as well do so.

 

I go mainstat btw for augments, my thought process is as we go higher in gear tiers we'll get more room for surge which will only increase the usefulness of mainstat (because of added crit). However, I'm kind of curious if at any point Vengeance would ever want some alacrity.

Edited December 25, 2014 by wadecounty

[veSev]

I don't think comparing unlettered mods and lettered mods to might/power augments is fair. The lettered mods actually have less overall DPS stats when you add Strength and Power together than the unlettered do, whereas the augments have the same exact amount of mainstat or power.

 

That being said, I do usually go for the lettered mods of 1 tier higher than an unlettered mod, for the reason that the total stats is about the same but the higher tier lettered mod will have more endurance, and if the DPS stats are equal but I can add more buffer to take a hit for my healers, I might as well do so.

 

I go mainstat btw for augments, my thought process is as we go higher in gear tiers we'll get more room for surge which will only increase the usefulness of mainstat (because of added crit). However, I'm kind of curious if at any point Vengeance would ever want some alacrity.

 

I wasnt necessarily comparing the two to one another, but rather saying that I have varying opinions on both slots. When it comes to mods, I take the approach I explained. An additional part to this, I will take a lettered mod if it is better, when adding mainstat+power, than an unlettered. This happens when you are comparing a 198 A mod (127 MS + 52 Pow) to a 186 unlettered mod (85 MS + 75 Pow). However, a 192 A mod (117 MS + 42 Pow) compared to a 186 unlettered is roughly the same, so I take the additional power instead of the MS. Unless there is a noticeable difference when adding the two, I stick with the unlettered even if its a lesser tier.

 

I agree on the augment and surge part. That is partially my thought process because it was similarly true in 2.0. In 186s, we currently have 3 slots for Surge/Alacrity, and once we reach BiS 198s we can have 4 slots. If this remains true as we climb tiers, which it probably will, than mainstat will become progressively better.

 

On the alacrity front, I just havent seen a use for it. I personally feel like it messes up the pace of my rotation because we cast so often. However, I would think that alacrity could possibly produce higher top end parses, but it wouldn't be something you'd raid with currently.

 

And since torparse decided to show up today and I couldnt find my 4600 log, I hit this parse today and uploaded it: 4574

Edited December 26, 2014 by veSev

[ahoad]

I wasnt necessarily comparing the two to one another, but rather saying that I have varying opinions on both slots. When it comes to mods, I take the approach I explained. An additional part to this, I will take a lettered mod if it is better, when adding mainstat+power, than an unlettered. This happens when you are comparing a 198 A mod (127 MS + 52 Pow) to a 186 unlettered mod (85 MS + 75 Pow). However, a 192 A mod (117 MS + 42 Pow) compared to a 186 unlettered is roughly the same, so I take the additional power instead of the MS. Unless there is a noticeable difference when adding the two, I stick with the unlettered even if its a lesser tier.

 

I agree on the augment and surge part. That is partially my thought process because it was similarly true in 2.0. In 186s, we currently have 3 slots for Surge/Alacrity, and once we reach BiS 198s we can have 4 slots. If this remains true as we climb tiers, which it probably will, than mainstat will become progressively better.

 

On the alacrity front, I just havent seen a use for it. I personally feel like it messes up the pace of my rotation because we cast so often. However, I would think that alacrity could possibly produce higher top end parses, but it wouldn't be something you'd raid with currently.

 

And since torparse decided to show up today and I couldnt find my 4600 log, I hit this parse today and uploaded it: 4574

 

What is surges cap? For pvp should we do all surge / power with might mods, or leave some armor pieces as crit?

[veSev]

What is surges cap? For pvp should we do all surge / power with might mods, or leave some armor pieces as crit?

 

Surge cap is still Mid 70%s I believe, but dont quote me on that. I am sure there are people who've done up graphs for the DR curves in 3.0. As for PvP, I am not a huge PvP guys TBH. I more so do it as something between raiding when I am bored of parsing. However, I work my gear in PvP similar to PvE in that I go for unlettered mods, use Might augs, etc. As for using all Surge, Ive heard others say they use about 95% Accuracy and the rest Surge. I am still not in full PvP gear, so I cant say thats entirely accurate but I plan to shoot for that Acc and stack the rest in Surge. As for Crit, I would say none if you can manage that. I know there are quite a few pieces with crit, so it will take time to remove those. Hopefully AndrewPast will come in with some PvP info soon and Im sure his info will be far more accurate than what I said here.

[Joran-Koon]

FINAL edit: Am I the only top end guardian NOT having written a guide now?

Nope, and you'll never be alone as my laziness knows no bounds.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Joran-Koon

[veSev]

Nope, and you'll never be alone as my laziness knows no bounds.

 

Aint that the truth lol

[Manweth]

There's one reason lettered mod is worse.

 

It's the endurance.

 

Problem with lettered mods is that they don't give you the exact same amount of Might in exchange of the power you lose.

 

Overall might + power count on the Unlettered is always higher, because lettered mods transfer some of the lost power to the endurance, not fully to might. So lettered is good to use when you doN't have better, but BiS requires Unlettered mods, pure and simple.

[Joran-Koon]

Aint that the truth lol

 

you got jokes Vesev? lol.

Oh btw, glad to see you lucky streak is as normal as ever in parses.

[veSev]

you got jokes Vesev? lol.

Oh btw, glad to see you lucky streak is as normal as ever in parses.

 

Your odds would improve if you parsed more lol. But sadly, I will fall behind in this tier since I cant raid very often with my new job. PvP focused for the next few weeks.

Edited December 28, 2014 by veSev

[Kain_Turinbar]

Just coming back for 3.0 and man, they changed us a lot. I just can't get these changes down with the way zen strike works now to optimize the maximum number of master strikes. Also, is it just me or is focus a ******** harder to come by now? I don't remember ever being focused starved but it appears resetting master strike no longer gives 3 focus and that must be what is throwing me off.

 

I like our new AoE ability but damn, the rotation seems so different.

 

I miss the 7.5% crit for Slash and Dispatch too.

 

Love the new Force Stasis though. I always wanted the unchannelled version from Defense but I'll take what they gave us.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Kain_Turinbar

[Manweth]

Just coming back for 3.0 and man, they changed us a lot. I just can't get these changes down with the way zen strike works now to optimize the maximum number of master strikes. Also, is it just me or is focus a ******** harder to come by now? I don't remember ever being focused starved but it appears resetting master strike no longer gives 3 focus and that must be what is throwing me off.

 

I like our new AoE ability but damn, the rotation seems so different.

 

I miss the 7.5% crit for Slash and Dispatch too.

 

Love the new Force Stasis though. I always wanted the unchannelled version from Defense but I'll take what they gave us.

 

Actually, I find focus more easy to come by, I use the combat focus less frequently. Resetting the MS does actually give you focus back, since Plasma Brand costs only 1 focus. ( 3 focus feedback, 1 focus back from Shien)

 

That AOE is the hardest hitting instant AOE in the game, and it spreads DoTs as well. Crazy nice.

 

Optimizing without stacks in ZenStrike is a bit off putting, but you get used to it quick. Opening with OHS in raids and dummy helps a lot.

 

That Force Stasis is nice to have when all your other instants are gone and/or you are forced to stay more than 5m away due to a mechanic.

 

All in all, we are a bit better. You'll like it after some training.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Manweth

[darth_psychose]

while i was tryin to beat the 4k780 dps i met some issues at the end of my parse.

 

screen // torparse link

 

in my screen in game i see me killin the dummy, end the fight and then re-kill him with the OS and get out of the fight again.

 

my question is : w t f ?

 

did i have to conclude that my dps is : 1 000 000 / 217.179 = 4604.49

 

or 1 000 000 / 215.854 = 4632.76

 

215.854 is calculated with the difference between the time of combat log and the time of " you exit combat " proc

217.179 - ( 19.314 - 17.809)

 

ps : it happened 5 times

Edited December 28, 2014 by darth_psychose

[veSev]

while i was tryin to beat the 4k780 dps i met some issues at the end of my parse.

 

screen // torparse link

 

in my screen in game i see me killin the dummy, end the fight and then re-kill him with the OS and get out of the fight again.

 

my question is : w t f ?

 

did i have to conclude that my dps is : 1 000 000 / 217.179 = 4604.49

 

or 1 000 000 / 215.854 = 4632.76

 

215.854 is calculated with the difference between the time of combat log and the time of " you exit combat " proc

217.179 - ( 19.314 - 17.809)

 

ps : it happened 5 times

 

This has been a debate in parsing for a long time. The last world leaderboards used the TTK by dummy death instead of the Exit Combat mark to calculate DPS. Exiting combat actually happens a split second after you kill the dummy. However, Parsec has failed to show this line of text since its release, so they were using the logs in Torparse to do so. The issue now is that Torparse doesnt have a log link or timer scroll bars as it did before it was taken down. Until Torparse is completely back up, I would say calculate TTK using Exit combat and that is your DPS.

[Manweth]

Known bug with the dummy allowing an extra activation as it dies. If you are a trigger happy parser, odds are it happened to every one of us a bunch of times.

 

Use exitcombat times. I find that marker really trustworthy.

[veSev]

I guess I broke Torparse? Either that or something is a miss between Parsec's numbers and Torparse's.

 

Torparse Link - 382 DPS

 

Parsec Picture - 4714 DPS

 

Weird part is that the Torparse still shows that fight being 3:32:328 in length when you click on "fight overview", which is the same time displayed on Parsec, which ends up being 4709 DPS.

Edited January 2, 2015 by veSev

[GrandLordMenace]

been AFK for a few weeks due to holiday things and have no gear.

 

I considered the 2pc new bonus and I think it wins out on dummy, but what is the verdict in a real raid? Is it a 200+ DPS gain?

 

What are your average numbers?

 

In the straight up 192s I projected a general upper limit of 4550 or so on a relatively good crit parse, are we all using dummy parse adjusted builds that favor higher surge percentages?

 

Before I left I did a 4200 on the 1.5 with 198 offhand, relics, and old 180s cause I need to raid more.

[veSev]

been AFK for a few weeks due to holiday things and have no gear.

 

I considered the 2pc new bonus and I think it wins out on dummy, but what is the verdict in a real raid? Is it a 200+ DPS gain?

 

What are your average numbers?

 

In the straight up 192s I projected a general upper limit of 4550 or so on a relatively good crit parse, are we all using dummy parse adjusted builds that favor higher surge percentages?

 

Before I left I did a 4200 on the 1.5 with 198 offhand, relics, and old 180s cause I need to raid more.

 

Its hard to gauge a number, but it was an increase going from last weeks HM Sparky and Malaphar pulls of about 200+ DPS. The only issue in gauging this is splash damage, for these adds in this fight can spike your DPS quite substantially. Think Bulo would be a better gauge since DPS shouldnt touch adds, but sadly I havent worked on that boss to much yet.

 

As far as parsing goes, Ive have a pretty solid average of 4400-4500 on the 1 Mil and, for some unknown reason, 4500-4600 on 1.5 Mil. Feel like our spec is designed more around longer fights than before based on what Ive seen in parsing between the 1.5 and 1 Mil Dummy. Time will tell, but just the impression Ive gotten after about 15 parses on the 1.5 so far.

[Manweth]

6pc for real fights.... Unfortunate truth is the upfront damage and recurring crit on OHS comes more in handy most of the time.

 

As for dps in real fights, another unfortunate truth.

 

Guardians are THE PERFECT ERRAND BOYS. Bombs on walkers, sure. Bulo barrels, first choice. Torque laser adds, splash the damage good and burst it down with MS. Sparky add on maintank, you are the offtaunter.

 

So, kills are mostly owed to your performance but your numbers suffer greatly

[GrandLordMenace]

6pc for real fights.... Unfortunate truth is the upfront damage and recurring crit on OHS comes more in handy most of the time.

 

As for dps in real fights, another unfortunate truth.

 

Guardians are THE PERFECT ERRAND BOYS. Bombs on walkers, sure. Bulo barrels, first choice. Torque laser adds, splash the damage good and burst it down with MS. Sparky add on maintank, you are the offtaunter.

 

So, kills are mostly owed to your performance but your numbers suffer greatly

 

Manweth I missed you buddy.

 

Now all we need are people asking for 0 m leap

 

Parsing is highly depressing for me. I have 300 MS and haven't played the class in 3 weeks and am doing a 4200 with an APM of 34.5, and weeks ago with 90 MS I could barely do a consistent 4.1 with APM of 36.2. *********** hell.

Edited January 3, 2015 by GrandLordMenace

[Joran-Koon]

My guardian is used for intercede, AoE taunt guard and saber reflect lol. Damage is good if you're aloud to sit and burn but you get to do that on Mal and Sparky, everything else is a "no melee" zone. Is it possible? yes, I know it is. Does it seriously hinder your team, I believe so.

[wadecounty]

It is what it is, ranged is always going to have certain advantages, as are we. Near the end of a HM Bulo, I called it out and taunted off our tanks when they were low in order to eat 2 shots of Scatter Blast because I had Saber Reflect available, we got the kill on that pull, that's an awesome tool not a lot of other classes have.

 

I think if your raid team is strict about bottom line DPS numbers and don't worry about the other parts of the fight you'll have trouble, but the truth is we are one of the most survivable DPS's, with an amazing cooldown suite, an awesome ability to mix splash AOE into our rotation (nice on Underlurker, Torque, Commanders etc), and yeah, when we get to sit and do our rotation our DPS is plenty competitive.

 

The lack of AOE DR does hurt, but at the same time, we have the highest natural DR of any DPS so anything that isn't AOE we take the best, ED is a heal to full against certain fight mechanics, and Reflect is fantastic cheese (not to mention Saber Ward is bar none the best cooldown for emergency tanking in the game). Oh, and Endure Pain is nice too (hint, don't always save it for surviving when you get low, popping it preemptively for the DR is great too).

 

So far, I've only seen Malaphar, Sparky, Sword Squadron, Bulo and Torque on HM, so those are the only ones I can comment on, but I feel like there's awesome pros even if there are cons, to Vengeance, on every fight. And Rage is an option if you absolutely cannot land Ravages, although I think a lot of it is understanding the fight, its ok to delay Ravage by a GCD or two and alter your rotation a bit if it means for example letting a red circle appear on the walkers so you can move and then cleanly Ravage, another reason I think dummy DPS in this tier more than ever is a very meh tool for how you'll perform in an actual raid.

Edited January 3, 2015 by wadecounty

[GrandLordMenace]

It is what it is, ranged is always going to have certain advantages, as are we. Near the end of a HM Bulo, I called it out and taunted off our tanks when they were low in order to eat 2 shots of Scatter Blast because I had Saber Reflect available, we got the kill on that pull, that's an awesome tool not a lot of other classes have.

 

I think if your raid team is strict about bottom line DPS numbers and don't worry about the other parts of the fight you'll have trouble, but the truth is we are one of the most survivable DPS's, with an amazing cooldown suite, an awesome ability to mix splash AOE into our rotation (nice on Underlurker, Torque, Commanders etc), and yeah, when we get to sit and do our rotation our DPS is plenty competitive.

 

The lack of AOE DR does hurt, but at the same time, we have the highest natural DR of any DPS so anything that isn't AOE we take the best, ED is a heal to full against certain fight mechanics, and Reflect is fantastic cheese (not to mention Saber Ward is bar none the best cooldown for emergency tanking in the game). Oh, and Endure Pain is nice too (hint, don't always save it for surviving when you get low, popping it preemptively for the DR is great too).

 

So far, I've only seen Malaphar, Sparky, Sword Squadron, Bulo and Torque on HM, so those are the only ones I can comment on, but I feel like there's awesome pros even if there are cons, to Vengeance, on every fight. And Rage is an option if you absolutely cannot land Ravages, although I think a lot of it is understanding the fight, its ok to delay Ravage by a GCD or two and alter your rotation a bit if it means for example letting a red circle appear on the walkers so you can move and then cleanly Ravage, another reason I think dummy DPS in this tier more than ever is a very meh tool for how you'll perform in an actual raid.

 

This, so much this. Dummy DPS this tier is near useless other than detecting gear changes. The specs that are doing great on dummy are so much harder to apply to boss. Vigilance, bar master strike, is incredibly easy to apply it's DPS on a boss nowadays IMHO.