Guardian/Juggernaut Vigilance/Vengeance Guide (3.0+) by Vesev and AndrewPast

[MBloomberg]

Personally, I'm with you, to much uniformity, so I'd say no, don't reveal your rotation haha

[GrandLordMenace]

So before I go ahead and give away my trade secrets lol, I wanted to know your guys opinion on writing out my personal rotation? Personally, I am of the opinion that in brings about too much uniformity to a class, but maybe it will spark a debate about the rotation everyone is using.

 

I don't see the point, keening puts too much of a variation into things. Besides, I'd rather you keep your rotation secret (besides how much variance can we develop between rotations outside of openers?) so that people can still experiment and find **** out on their own.

[Manweth]

588 alacrity ( 7.00 percent speed), 24.55 crit, 69.19 surge.

 

Finding 4.6 as a baseline, hit a 4.9 earlier. GOnna go for 5k and let you guys see the parses...

 

But I can tell SPEEEEED is the way to go. Above 7.00 it seems to make you lose deeps though.

[ArenCordial]

So before I go ahead and give away my trade secrets lol, I wanted to know your guys opinion on writing out my personal rotation? Personally, I am of the opinion that in brings about too much uniformity to a class, but maybe it will spark a debate about the rotation everyone is using.

 

Its up to you of course, it is your guide after all. My vote is if you think there is something to be gained in it then sure, if not then don't bother.

 

588 alacrity ( 7.00 percent speed), 24.55 crit, 69.19 surge.

 

Finding 4.6 as a baseline, hit a 4.9 earlier. GOnna go for 5k and let you guys see the parses...

 

But I can tell SPEEEEED is the way to go. Above 7.00 it seems to make you lose deeps though.

 

Now that's interesting. Are you seeing better results in the ops themselves or just parsing? I've been debating this in my head whether going for more alacrity is worth it since I feel like there can be a lot of downtime for melee and I suppose there is a fine line between getting out an extra action or so on the boss or making your hits a little harder. Stacking alacrity does make sense I suppose in more apm but I've been hesitant to try. I know Kwerty swears by it but we don't get the resource gen either. Probably old memories of alacrity being crap for Knights/Warriors polluting my thoughts to give it the look I should.

Edited March 24, 2015 by ArenCordial

[Manweth]

Just killed full ravagers (HM), and my DPS at least stayed same, but went up in a lot of tries.

 

I got hits off in scenarios where I couldn't, for example, got an extra hit on Torque just as he knocks you back with Rage, whereas I couldn't before. One of the many upsides of alacrity.

 

It works on parsing, bbut it works much better in fights. Initial numbers may show low if you don't crit good, but it balances out in fights and you grab top DPS eventually. ( Provided that you don't die.)

 

I'm telling you guys.

 

SPEED! We must all do SPEEEEEEED!!!!!! *Crystal meth usage optional*

 

*Summons a Speed Guardian with 5 energy, next two rounds will activate with Guardian attacking first*

 

Edit Note: Jaws of Hakkon just launched on DAI, so I might not be around for a few days. Gonna get to the promised land of 5k deeps laterz. Peace out.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Manweth

[GrandLordMenace]

Just killed full ravagers (HM), and my DPS at least stayed same, but went up in a lot of tries.

 

I got hits off in scenarios where I couldn't, for example, got an extra hit on Torque just as he knocks you back with Rage, whereas I couldn't before. One of the many upsides of alacrity.

 

It works on parsing, bbut it works much better in fights. Initial numbers may show low if you don't crit good, but it balances out in fights and you grab top DPS eventually. ( Provided that you don't die.)

 

I'm telling you guys.

 

SPEED! We must all do SPEEEEEEED!!!!!! *Crystal meth usage optional*

 

*Summons a Speed Guardian with 5 energy, next two rounds will activate with Guardian attacking first*

 

Edit Note: Jaws of Hakkon just launched on DAI, so I might not be around for a few days. Gonna get to the promised land of 5k deeps laterz. Peace out.

 

Going to run some tests, but super interesting...

 

EDIT: I am now a convert. First parse I did with full Alacrity Augments was a 20 DPS increase over my top parse and a 120 DPS increase over my average! THIS NEEDS TO BE TESTED!!!

 

EDIT 2: Averages are clocking in close with regular mainstat, though my outlier parses so far have been exceeding my mainstat ones.

Edited March 25, 2015 by GrandLordMenace

[GrandLordMenace]

Joining the 4.7 club.

 

http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/16244/1

[Tythos]

A weird part of me actually hopes that augmenting for Alacrity will end up being the way to go as faster abilities will be more fun.

[GrandLordMenace]

A weird part of me actually hopes that augmenting for Alacrity will end up being the way to go as faster abilities will be more fun.

 

So far, for both PVP and PVE I am running alacrity augments. I'm losing almost no DPS on bosses at worst and GAINING in mobility and sustained DPS in most cases, at least in SM so far today, and am gaining TREMENDOUS DPS in both PVP, and dummy parsing.

 

I plan on updating my guide next week to recommend 14 alacrity augments for advanced players who can maintain uptime.

[TACeMossie]

So far, for both PVP and PVE I am running alacrity augments. I'm losing almost no DPS on bosses at worst and GAINING in mobility and sustained DPS in most cases, at least in SM so far today, and am gaining TREMENDOUS DPS in both PVP, and dummy parsing.

 

I plan on updating my guide next week to recommend 14 alacrity augments for advanced players who can maintain uptime.

 

I would recommend dropping a little on alacrity. I've done testing and gotten others as well for other classes, and it appears that after 600-720 alacrity that it starts dropping back a bit with:

 

AP Powertechs/Tactics Vanguards

Plasmatech Vanguards/Pyrotech Powertechs

Serenity Shadows/Hatred Assassins

Engineering Snipers/Saboteur Gunslingers

 

Haven't tested on other classes yet, but as you yourself have noted, having decent alacrity levels leads to a DPS increase. Hence the recommendation to try a little less alacrity

 

Not far enough down that it is outperformed by Power or Strength augments, but it is still not the best it could be.

 

Of course, I don't know what the other gear you are using looks like. For all I know, it could be 7 Acc enhancements, 3 Surge Enhancements, 0 Alac Enhancements.

 

In which case I'd recommend changing it to 2 Acc enhancements, 3 Surge enhancements, 5 Alac Enhancements, 10 Acc Augments, 4 Alac Augments. You end up with the same surge, perfect accuracy, and MOAR ALACRITY!

Edited March 26, 2015 by TACeMossie

[GrandLordMenace]

I would recommend dropping a little on alacrity. I've done testing and gotten others as well for other classes, and it appears that after 600-720 alacrity that it starts dropping back a bit with:

 

AP Powertechs/Tactics Vanguards

Plasmatech Vanguards/Pyrotech Powertechs

Serenity Shadows/Hatred Assassins

Engineering Snipers/Saboteur Gunslingers

 

Haven't tested on other classes yet, but as you yourself have noted, having decent alacrity levels leads to a DPS increase. Hence the recommendation to try a little less alacrity

 

Not far enough down that it is outperformed by Power or Strength augments, but it is still not the best it could be.

 

Of course, I don't know what the other gear you are using looks like. For all I know, it could be 7 Acc enhancements, 3 Surge Enhancements, 0 Alac Enhancements.

 

all my alacrity is concentrated in augments. I've found that surge to alacrity is not a decent trade off compared to power /mainstat vs alacrity, because to me, flat DPS increase to better flat DPS increase is a better trade off (Oversimplifying since power is multiplied but whatever)

 

The benefits of alacrity are abundant. Burstier DoTspread, lower CD on gapcloser, less contact time required for master strike, burstier damage (cause everything is cast faster), yadda yadda yadda.

 

I plan on updating my guide soon, but I don't plan on making it the primary build. Alacrity requires too much mental focus to be able to be usable as a starter beginner build due to APM and uptime requirements, so my mainstat build will remain for most players.

 

As for your rejiggering setup, I think that would cost me a fortune, a fortune I sadly do not have.

Edited March 26, 2015 by GrandLordMenace

[TACeMossie]

all my alacrity is concentrated in augments. I've found that surge to alacrity is not a decent trade off compared to power /mainstat vs alacrity, because to me, flat DPS increase to better flat DPS increase is a better trade off (Oversimplifying since power is multiplied but whatever)

 

The benefits of alacrity are abundant. Burstier DoTspread, lower CD on gapcloser, less contact time required for master strike, burstier damage (cause everything is cast faster), yadda yadda yadda.

 

I plan on updating my guide soon, but I don't plan on making it the primary build. Alacrity requires too much mental focus to be able to be usable as a starter beginner build due to APM and uptime requirements, so my mainstat build will remain for most players.

 

As for your rejiggering setup, I think that would cost me a fortune, a fortune I sadly do not have.

 

I hear ya, I'm sitting on about 700k across all my toons right now

 

There's always the PTS for these things though.

[GrandLordMenace]

I hear ya, I'm sitting on about 700k across all my toons right now

 

There's always the PTS for these things though.

 

How do you think I tested most of this **** this morning? >.>

 

The rip fees and augment purchase set me back a good 4 mil, plus the new cargo bay setting me back another 2 mil to hold the 28 augments I replaced.

 

Also you seriously need to bring an alt over to Ebon Hawk. KBN and Kwerty Science Bros needs to be a thing.

Edited March 26, 2015 by GrandLordMenace

[Manweth]

Do not go above 600 alacrity. I'm running with 1x198 quick savant + 9xalacrity augs and it gives an exact 7.00% speed boost. Anything higher than 600 enters alacrity's internal DR curve anyway. Only certain specs in game benefit from that much alacrity, and we don't.

 

I had one 4.9 on 500k, and one on 1M dummy. Gonna post when I FINALLY get a damn 5k parse. ( So far didn't havemuch chance to do parsing)

 

I'm guessing you guys would want a 1M parse? (1.5 is too long, and I'm lazy.)

 

Confirmed finding: Alacrity is not an instant +300 dps boost like some ppl might hope, and your average only jumps up slightly when you gear for it. Real positive is that consistency skyrockets. Whereas finding 4.7 was a problem with consistency with no alacrity uild, now I'm finding it %90 of time. Baseline dps jumped up and real fight consistency skyrocketed as well.

 

 

Proposed tests for all guardian theorists:

 

1) Someone needs to check if going no crit / full power would increase overall dps with a set amount of alacrity. I'm running 24.55 to 25.89 crit ( switching one mod occasionally). Getting Deft 38 mods is a pain in the ***, so we need to find out how many we need before gearing completes

 

2) If anyone has the time, try to see how our DPS acts when alacrity is incremented by one augment at a time, from 120 alacrity (one 198 enhancement baseline) to a possible of 692, maybe even 744 total rating. I've had only very little testing time to see how high I could go, and 588 was an immediate result, not an extensively tested one.

 

3) All of the above was tested with 360 surge, at soft cap limit. I've heard a sage saying that using 2x198 surge + 1 surge augment and instead taking 1 alacrity enhancement could give better results, but had no chance to test it.

 

Sidenote: Theoretically, having a faster rotation benefits DoT classes more as a rule, and even moreso when said burns crit. Other classes rely on dot crits more than we do, and we only have 3 burns, so it's debatable if using a certain amount of crit is good or not. I myself have a healthy amount of crit, but there are two outlying extremes of either zero crit or pushing it to a neighbourhood of 350-ish total crit rating ( where it starts to lose out to power for sure). If anyone wants, they can check that as well. But I suspect anything more than 140 crit is a dps loss.

 

Damned bioware devs put in crit alacrity all over vindicator set, so I can't get my hands on a proper Deft mod to save my life.........

 

Edit P.S.: Using that much alacrity requires a good connection (somewhat) ANd most importantly, having a seriously damaged obsessive personality. You'll be mashing the keybinds like a crazy person, you'll be killing yourself every 8-ish secs to clip MS juuuuuust at the right time (harder to do with faster cast) and your internal mental clocks will go out of sync in almost all the real fights while counting Globals and running calculations of upcoming rotation.

 

Or maybe it's just me that is so damaged, that is also possible.

 

P.P.S.: I'm suspecting that alacrity gearing is more useful when Revanite gearing, I had run a similar test with resurrecteds back in Xmas time when someone said it could be useful, but it wasn't giving nearly the same results. Possibly the surge and crit numbers weren't high enough without revanite upgrades back then. Also, I did not have a Quick Savant 38 as well, that makes a difference while gearing for alacrity. Doing it purely on augments is very prohibitive.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Manweth

[TACeMossie]

Do not go above 600 alacrity. I'm running with 1x198 quick savant + 9xalacrity augs and it gives an exact 7.00% speed boost. Anything higher than 600 enters alacrity's internal DR curve anyway. Only certain specs in game benefit from that much alacrity, and we don't.

 

Hey, if 600 alacrity is too much DR, then so is 180 surge.

 

Source: http://i.imgur.com/IzcyPPw.jpg

(Crit, Surge, Alac DR Curves from 3.0 at level 60)

 

600 isnt the sweet spot cause of DR, but rather cause the current stat budget doesn't give enough bonus damage through other sources yet for more than ~600 alacrity

[Manweth]

Hey, if 600 alacrity is too much DR, then so is 180 surge.

 

Source: http://i.imgur.com/IzcyPPw.jpg

(Crit, Surge, Alac DR Curves from 3.0 at level 60)

 

600 isnt the sweet spot cause of DR, but rather cause the current stat budget doesn't give enough bonus damage through other sources yet for more than ~600 alacrity

 

More or less what I meant, since DR curve for alacrity is very soft, whereas it is a monster drop for surge. Some specs ignore the curve and go higher if they want. I don't think guardians will benefit from that though. Maybe combat sentinels? I dunno.

 

What we know is dropping below 2 pieces of surge is suicide since DoTs and crit blade storm drops dramatically if you don't get at least that much. We have no similar clear cut data for alacrity, as testing for the speed of damage significantly requires more runs to establish a base minimum or a maximum point.

[GrandLordMenace]

More or less what I meant, since DR curve for alacrity is very soft, whereas it is a monster drop for surge. Some specs ignore the curve and go higher if they want. I don't think guardians will benefit from that though. Maybe combat sentinels? I dunno.

 

What we know is dropping below 2 pieces of surge is suicide since DoTs and crit blade storm drops dramatically if you don't get at least that much. We have no similar clear cut data for alacrity, as testing for the speed of damage significantly requires more runs to establish a base minimum or a maximum point.

 

I'm jumping into hard modes tonight, and I'll have bulo, ss, sparky, and malaphar parses in full alacrity aug build for people to dissect.

 

I like 8.41% alac from a QOL standpoint, not just a sheer DPS standpoint. the shortened channel on MS is everything, if it went back to like 2.8 instead of 2.77 would make me sad panda

 

My cautionary advice for anyone wanting to try the "speeddemon builds" is this: A: Have a decent connection, seriously, Manweth is 100% right, and B: You better be *********** good at button mashing and uptime or this **** is NOT for you.

Edited March 26, 2015 by GrandLordMenace

[Torvai]

How good of a connection would you suggest? I'm having a more or less constant 50-60ms. So is this to much?

[TACeMossie]

How good of a connection would you suggest? I'm having a more or less constant 50-60ms. So is this to much?

 

Well i'm on 200+ MS on average and I stack the hell out of alacrity on all my toons and still notice an improvement so...

[Torvai]

Well i'm on 200+ MS on average and I stack the hell out of alacrity on all my toons and still notice an improvement so...

 

Lol, okay:o

Seems like i need to adjust my dps gear then

 

Edit: If somebody is bored, could you please take a look at my parse and tell me if I'm doing anything particularly wrong?

I know DoT uptime isn't as good as it should be, but I'm wondering if there's more to it.

Gear is mostly 192 token with one revanite relic and one or two 198 crit/acc enhancements(the good ones). No alacrity, 100.xx acc, ~25% crit(244 iirc), rest in power/surge.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Torvai

[veSev]

So with all the Alacrity talk, I figured I would revisit it some while messing around on the PTS. Here are the results from 10 parses in album form (gear sheet in album as well): http://imgur.com/a/f664i

 

Gear:

Resurrected Implants / Earpiece

Ruusan Relics (Focused Retribution / Serendipitous Assault)

Head / Gloves Revanite Set Pieces

Chest / Belt / Bracers / Boots Resurrected Set Pieces

Resurrected Main Hand / 198 Armoring in Off Hand

 

Stats:

Strength: 3673

Power: 1669

Accuracy: 786 (2 Implants, 1 Earpiece, 4 Enhancements)

Critical: 327 (2 Mods, 2 Enhancements)

Surge: 333 (3 Enhancements)

Alacrity: 728 (14 Augments)

 

Parse 1: 4605

Parse 2: 4616

Parse 3: 4533

Parse 4: 4660

Parse 5: 4560

Parse 6: 4490

Parse 7: 4657

Parse 8: 4545

Parse 9: 4591

Parse 10: 4616

 

Averaged DPS: 45873/10 = 4587.3

 

After 10 parses, I am of the opinion that Alacrity is indeed more viable as a Guardian / Juggernaut DPS that I had originally tested (not sure about Focus/Rage yet). The one struggle was finding the clipping point for Ravage. I tried both .2 and .3 seconds and at .3 it seemed to be 50/50 on it actually landing, so I stuck with .2 as I could. Anyways, it would seem that with this amount of Alacrity I saw a steady 50-150 DPS increase per parse compared to Main Stat augments. Of course this is subjective and only a small portion, but it would appear that Alacrity maybe the augment stat to run on live. I will test more in-depth builds while the PTS is live and continue to post results.

Edited March 27, 2015 by veSev

[GrandLordMenace]

So with all the Alacrity talk, I figured I would revisit it some while messing around on the PTS. Here are the results from 10 parses in album form (gear sheet in album as well): http://imgur.com/a/f664i

 

Gear:

Resurrected Implants / Earpiece

Ruusan Relics (Focused Retribution / Serendipitous Assault)

Head / Gloves Revanite Set Pieces

Chest / Belt / Bracers / Boots Resurrected Set Pieces

Resurrected Main Hand / 198 Armoring in Off Hand

 

Stats:

Strength: 3673

Power: 1669

Accuracy: 786 (2 Implants, 1 Earpiece, 4 Enhancements)

Critical: 327 (2 Mods, 2 Enhancements)

Surge: 333 (3 Enhancements)

Alacrity: 728 (14 Augments)

 

Parse 1: 4605

Parse 2: 4616

Parse 3: 4533

Parse 4: 4660

Parse 5: 4560

Parse 6: 4490

Parse 7: 4657

Parse 8: 4545

Parse 9: 4591

Parse 10: 4616

 

Averaged DPS: 45873/10 = 4587.3

 

After 10 parses, I am of the opinion that Alacrity is indeed more viable as a Guardian / Juggernaut DPS that I had originally tested (not sure about Focus/Rage yet). The one struggle was finding the clipping point for Ravage. I tried both .2 and .3 seconds and at .3 it seemed to be 50/50 on it actually landing, so I stuck with .2 as I could. Anyways, it would seem that with this amount of Alacrity I saw a steady 50-150 DPS increase per parse compared to Main Stat augments. Of course this is subjective and only a small portion, but it would appear that Alacrity maybe the augment stat to run on live. I will test more in-depth builds while the PTS is live and continue to post results.

 

Trying to make more converts to the club, stay tuned.

[veSev]

Trying to make more converts to the club, stay tuned.

 

I'm not completely converted yet, but it seems to be beneficial at face value. I should move my Guardian over and see what it can really do considering he has a Revanite left side (4900 maybe!). The one thing that I dont like about Alacrity is the clipping. Because the cast is 2.XX with alacrity it messes with the clipping time. Over time I'm sure I'll become accustomed to the .2 clipping mark, but right now if feels awkward.

 

The few things of note, you can't swap Surge for Alacrity. My DPS completely tanked with swapping out any of my Surge slots for Alacrity. In 198s, I am sure you can maintain the 68.XX% Surge and swap 1 Accuracy enhancement for Alacrity. So until then, I recommend Augments only for Alacrity. Also, I believe you mentioned this Rydarus but it is NOT something to do if you are new the class. Run with the Strength augments and get comfortable with the rotation before speeding it up. And lastly, I started with 14 Alacrity augments (data shown) and worked my way down to see if there was a "sweet spot" and my DPS continued to drop til I was at 2 Alacrity augments. At which point, it seemed to level out to where I was at before trying this build. I only did 2 parses of each, so it's not solid information.

 

I am actually curious what it would do for my merc with the changes in 3.1.2. The changes on the PTS created alot of variability on my numbers. My top was 4938 and my low was 4615. Would if Alacrity would help stabilize the numbers.

Edited March 27, 2015 by veSev

[GrandLordMenace]

I'm not completely converted yet, but it seems to be beneficial at face value. I should move my Guardian over and see what it can really do considering he has a Revanite left side (4900 maybe!). The one thing that I dont like about Alacrity is the clipping. Because the cast is 2.XX with alacrity it messes with the clipping time. Over time I'm sure I'll become accustomed to the .2 clipping mark, but right now if feels awkward.

 

The few things of note, you can't swap Surge for Alacrity. My DPS completely tanked with swapping out any of my Surge slots for Alacrity. In 198s, I am sure you can maintain the 68.XX% Surge and swap 1 Accuracy enhancement for Alacrity. So until then, I recommend Augments only for Alacrity. Also, I believe you mentioned this Rydarus but it is NOT something to do if you are new the class. Run with the Strength augments and get comfortable with the rotation before speeding it up. And lastly, I started with 14 Alacrity augments (data shown) and worked my way down to see if there was a "sweet spot" and my DPS continued to drop til I was at 2 Alacrity augments. At which point, it seemed to level out to where I was at before trying this build. I only did 2 parses of each, so it's not solid information.

 

I am actually curious what it would do for my merc with the changes in 3.1.2. The changes on the PTS created alot of variability on my numbers. My top was 4938 and my low was 4615. Would if Alacrity would help stabilize the numbers.

 

Agree with everything you are saying.

 

I'm seeing benefits in alacrity augs because we are trading a somewhat variable but generally flat DPS gain for a 100% flat DPS gain that increases mobility AND uptime (cause less need to clip Master Strike early). In addition it gives our DoTspread more teeth as the DoTs tick faster.

 

The benefits are COMPLETELY nullified if you are not capable of clipping Master Strike reliably, and you need a viciously accurate internal clock and need to preplan insanely ahead in order to coordinate everything on a boss (starparse timers absolutely will not be able to do all the heavy lifting for you, you need to mentally plot out ICDs and ****). DoT uptime is absolutely even more important, but the gains are magnificent, DoTspread is bursty as ****, I think we'll be seeing very interesting results in fights like underlurker.

 

Also of note, my ideas on alacrity assume that the player is capable of reliably creating combos of a few abilities or more with abilities directly adjacent to each other, if there is any delay between blocks of abilities, IE the alacrity is useless if you do X ability, then wait, then do Y ability, as long as you are capable of creating blocks of damage then blocks of downtime instead of downtime being more divvied up throughout a single general block of damage, alacrity is beneficial.

Edited March 27, 2015 by GrandLordMenace

[GrandLordMenace]

Climbing

 

http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/17283/0

 

4747