Training Costs are a Thing of the Past

[Fluxsource]

Removal of training costs from the game forever ..... to address multiple different training costs issues raised by players with 3.0 is not a material form of remedy and apology to the masses for the angst it created????

 

Really??? Most players would disagree with you...even those that would like a training refund for the expenses of the last week.

 

I guess we have to agree to be in separate, but parallel, universes.

 

I think this is where the confusion lies. My issue isn't with the high training costs. It's that the high training costs were only present for a couple of days (at least, without knowledge they were to be removed) so ALL of the non-early access players will never see them. Which is great - but there are a small group of players who have spent a LOT of credits on training skills without any reasonable expectation that they would be free any time soon. As many have pointed out, skills costing money was expected. So for the problem of the skills costing money for only 3 days before the free skill announcement, no the free skill announcement is not a remedy - the announcement (or rather the timing of it) is exactly the problem.

[Andryah]

But I believe there IS a solution that could make everyone happy. Make the free training change retroactive to since the launch of 3.0. It makes sense to have such a significant change launched at the same time as a major update. And I'm led to believe that this is technically possible. It's fair for all, and negates any disadvantage some had by training in the first week of the expansion. Remember that these new skills/skill levels were only introduced a week ago - it's a pretty small, but costly, window we're talking about here.

 

I see no way for them to do this easily, automatically, and error free. And we certainly don't want them doing it manually considering the number of characters. I have commented on this multiple times in the forum over the last couple of days. It will create more problems and more chaos then we have now. Why? Because they have to code up a process to take each character, interrogate the data base to see what training costs (all of which likely have unique tags to them) then create an email and drop the credits into said email and mail it to the correct customer. All of this would take some time to code, test, QA, fix the QA detects, retest again and rinse and repeat until they get it right.

 

Neither practical nor timely.

 

Their solution is imperfect in that it does not directly remedy for credits spent in the past. However, it does provide a credit subsidy (in the form of no credit expenses for any future training) that will in fact pay players bigger returns then them trying to refund actual expenditures via a coded process (that does not currently exist) for millions of characters.

 

The only players that have justifiable bitterness over this solution are those that are simply not going to have any more training costs ever in this game. In other words... people who quit the game. Thing is.. if you quit the game.. you don't care about or need training nor the credits used to train. Credits have no value unless you play the game and spend them.

 

Think of the remedy they choose as equivalent to the court ordered payout in a class action suit. It's an imperfect solution... necessitated by the fact that the settlement is to a class of petitioners. This is the nature of providing remedy to a large group of people claiming harm.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[Fluxsource]

I see no way for them to do this easily, automatically, and error free. I have commented on this multiple times in the forum over the last couple of days. It will create more problems and more chaos then we have now. Why? Because they have to code up a process to take each character, interrogate the data base to see what training costs (all of which likely have unique tags to them) then create an email and drop the credits into said email and mail it to the correct customer. All of this would take some time to code, test, QA, fix the QA detects, retest again and rinse and repeat until they get it right.

 

Neither practical nor timely.

 

Their solution is imperfect in that it does not directly remedy for credits spent in the past. However, it does provide a credit subsidy (in the form of no credit expenses for any future training) that will in fact pay players bigger returns then them trying to refund actual expenditures via a coded process (that does not currently exist) for millions of characters.

 

We'll have to disagree on this I think - I think it would be pretty straightforward to do, or at least should be.

 

The current situation only provides any kind of benefit if a player is likely to incur any future training costs. If he's trained up all his alts, then what is there left to train? I'm not going to start a new character just to gain some benefit from it.

[Andryah]

We'll have to disagree on this I think - I think it would be pretty straightforward to do, or at least should be.

 

Well, I am not a software or database coder, but I have had plenty of development teams over the years that were filled with people applying the skill sets. Trust me.. this is nowhere near as easy to do as you think it is. To do this in a timely manner, with effective levels of quality, they would have to already have the code package and process (and CS work flows for those transactions where players claim they got the wrong payout) already on the shelf and ready to go.

 

The current situation only provides any kind of benefit if a player is likely to incur any future training costs. If he's trained up all his alts, then what is there left to train? I'm not going to start a new character just to gain some benefit from it.

 

So.. that;s it.. when the next expac comes out and they raise the level cap to 65 or 70... you will not be taking advantage of the free training (which would be exponentially higher under the old model at 65 or 70, just like every other level cap has done in the past)????

 

If that is the case, then you clearly are not going to be playing in the future... or playing way below the rest of the population... until the expac is free. Which means.. credits have no purpose or value.. so no remedy would be objectively effective.. other then to unruffle some feathers that are apparently permanently ruffled.

 

Forgive and move forward, IMO. Accept the remedy and make use of it. That is what it was offered for.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[BAPACop]

So.. that;s it.. when the next expac comes out and they raise the level cap to 65 or 70... you will not be taking advantage of the free training (which would be exponentially higher under the old model at 65 or 70, just like every other level cap has done in the past)????

Well technically there would be no advantage there. Training for Level 60 skills has gone from X credits to 0. The training for Level 65 skills will go from 0 credits to 0 credits, meaning there is no difference.

 

But seriously, did no one read the explanation I wrote on why the free training isn't a full remedy?

[Fluxsource]

So.. that;s it.. when the next expac comes out and they raise the level cap to 65 or 70... you will not be taking advantage of the free training (which would be exponentially higher under the old model at 65 or 70, just like every other level cap has done in the past)????

 

If that is the case, then you clearly are not going to be playing in the future... or playing way below the rest of the population... until the expac is free. Which means.. credits have no purpose or value.. so no remedy would be objectively effective.. other then to unruffle some feathers that are apparently permanently ruffled.

 

Forgive and move forward, IMO. Accept the remedy and make use of it. That is what it was offered for.

 

Again, there has been no remedy offered. The free training change was a solution to a totally different problem, and I take no issue with that.

 

There's not guarantee there will be a future expansion. And even if there is, I will always be ~5 million credits worse off than I would be if the change had been announced - not even implemented, just announced - at the same time that the expansion went live.

[Andryah]

But seriously, did no one read the explanation I wrote on why the free training isn't a full remedy?

 

Yes, I read your explanation. I actually read it three times, because it was a little hard to digest. I disagree with your explanation. It presents a false petition of the nature of the harm actually done. You can disagree with me on that, but that's how it reads to me.. which is why I did not specifically respond to it (I was already in one line of discussion and did not want to fracture the discussion even more.

 

 

Well technically there would be no advantage there. Training for Level 60 skills has gone from X credits to 0. The training for Level 65 skills will go from 0 credits to 0 credits, meaning there is no difference.

 

With respect.. I feel you are distorting here. My point was that zeroing out training costs means billions and billions of player earned credits being spent on other things within the game in future expansions. That benefits every player in the future for however long they play the game.

[Andryah]

Again, there has been no remedy offered. The free training change was a solution to a totally different problem, and I take no issue with that.

 

It was a solution to multiple issues raised by the player base about training costs since 3.0 went live.

 

As for there being no future expacs.. as a basis for you rebuttal.. do you really believe that? If so.. why are you playing this game... as it has no future if that is the case.

 

I get it.. their mistake cost you 5M credits. It's not real money.. and as long as you have enough credits to do whatever you like... 5M for training that is now free forever is simply not material to your future game play. 5M credits I not much in this game for a cap level veteran player. I freely acknowledge that all of us spend credits last week for training that if that training was done this week it would be free. Long term.. it does not matter. Short term, I accept that some people are mad about it. I'm not. Credits spent last week enabled me to progress my characters a week earlier then anyone who did not have early access.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[BAPACop]

I disagree with your explanation. It presents a false petition of the nature of the harm actually done.

In what way?

[Fluxsource]

It was a solution to multiple issues raised by the player base about training costs since 3.0 went live.

 

As for there being no future expacs.. as a basis for you rebuttal.. do you really believe that? If so.. why are you playing this game... as it has no future if that is the case.

 

Yes, and it introduced a new issue that has not been addressed.

 

As for the future expansion, you're probably right - it's highly likely there will be more. But it's folly to measure benefit/harm done against expansions that haven't yet been announced.

[Andryah]

In what way?

 

Your explanation is no better and no worse then any other analogy that gets used in the forum. I hesitate to use them because they result in this right here... a derail to a discussion about the analogy.

 

Simply put.. your analogy creates the premise that once harmed financially.. always harmed financially.... unless a full and complete credit for credit refund is offered. That simply is not a practical solution for what happened last week... for reasons I have already explained in another response earlier.

 

Different players play at different levels of wealth inside MMOs. However, in general.. a veteran player in this game three years in.. with one or more level capped and equipped character is going to see more then a million credits per week. Many earn that much in a day these days. A short term impact in credits as we all got exposed to last week is simply in the noise financially inside this game if you look at the long picture.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Yes, and it introduced a new issue that has not been addressed.

 

As for the future expansion, you're probably right - it's highly likely there will be more. But it's folly to measure benefit/harm done against expansions that haven't yet been announced.

 

If you cannot see, or will not see, the massive benefit to the player base by spending 10s of billions of credits over the coming years on things other then training costs.. then you and I are at an impasse.

 

All of us spending credits last week and raising the concerns to Bioware, and Bioware embracing the concerns (after release of 3.) resulted in massive future savings for the player base. Credits well spent, collectively by us all IMO.

 

It's an MMO.. not a single player game.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[BAPACop]

Simply put.. your analogy creates the premise that once harmed financially.. always harmed financially.... unless a full and complete refund is offered.

Yes, once harmed financially those individuals have a lesser position relative to those who were not harmed. I was not intending it in any way to be a "solution". I was merely explaining the reasoning being used by the people who are disagreeing with you.

I hesitate to use them because they result in this right here... a derail to a discussion about the analogy.

You have repeatedly stated that you do not understand why people are complaining, yet when presented with an explanation as to why they are complaining, you ignored it because you considered it to be a "derail"? How is directly addressing your most common point a "derail"?

It's an MMO.. not a single player game.

Interesting side-note: Searching "swtor msorpg" gives far more results than you'd expect.

Edited December 10, 2014 by BAPACop

[Andryah]

Yes, once harmed financially those individuals have a lesser position relative to those who were not harmed.

 

Does not work that way in real life. Why? because wealth accumulation is a continuum event in life (same inside the game, so game mimics real life in some ways).

 

Your case first assumes we were all equal financially last week. I'm sure you can grasp that this is simply NOT true.

But if you want to compare wealth in game.. I think you will find any randomly selected two players will have different wealth and wealth generation in game. So they were never on equal footing, nor do they need to be.

 

You case secondly assumes that IF we were on equal financial footing... the party who paid more is forever at a disadvantage.. again simply not true. Different players accumulate wealth differently and at different levels. And those players will replenish their wealth at different levels too.. which has nothing to do with what happened last week.

 

Your hypothetical only works if Johnny and Billy both had 10M credits on day one, that Johnny spent 2M credits that Billy did not spend and so Johnny is forever going to be 2M credits poorer then Billy. I don't think any veteran player of this MMO would agree with you on that beyond the day and time when Johnny spent and Billy did not.

 

Players generally speaking, are very enterprising inside MMOs and will get as much in the form of resources and wealth as they need to play their game. They will spend wealth and make mistakes of their own accord that will create the same exact outcome as you presented... AND check back with them several weeks later and they have millions of new credits and Johnny is actually accumulating wealth faster then Billy... so he does not even miss the 2M he spent that Billy did not.

 

The reason a majority of players do not support the positions taken that your hypothetical presents is because they understand that credits are a fluid commodity and that they can get as many as they need, when they need them, and for whatever they need them for.

 

Wealth consciousness trumps poverty consciousness.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[Fluxsource]

If you cannot see, or will not see, the massive benefit to the player base by spending 10s of billions of credits over the coming years on things other then training costs.. then you and I are at an impasse.

 

All of us spending credits last week and raising the concerns to Bioware, and Bioware embracing the concerns (after release of 3.) resulted in massive future savings for the player base. Credits well spent, collectively by us all IMO.

 

It's an MMO.. not a single player game.

 

I can see the benefit to the player base. But I can also see the harm done to a subset of the play base, who have incurred a significant cost that the rest have not. Those costs were SIGNIFICANTLY higher than those incurred by the non-early access player base, and were only in a position to be disadvantaged by the situation because they had pre-ordered the expansion early. It's not even like they got early access to a finished product! (not really relevant to this discussion, but still...)

[BAPACop]

Your case first assumes we were all equal financially last week.

No. No it doesn't. I specifically stated that it doesn't, in fact.

You case secondly assumes that IF we were on equal financial footing... the party who paid more is forever at a disadvantage.. again simply not true. Different players accumulate wealth differently and at different levels.

Since you don't seem to understand what I wrote, and thus your entire response doesn't actually address it, I'll have to be more clear. We're discussing your claim that the removal of training costs for all players should be considered satisfactory. Other methods of gaining credits have nothing to do with whether or not that is an accurate statement as all we are interested in is determining whether or not those who paid for training costs are, by the change to training costs, put on even ground regarding trading costs with those who did not pay for training costs.

 

Take however many users starting at the same class and level and consider training costs to be a negative (credits unable to be spent on anything else) and free training to be a positive of the same value as its cost would have been (credits that can be spent on something else). Any of the players who trained before training became free will have a value lower than those who trained afterwards. Thus, the removal of training costs, while affecting everyone equally, does not replace those negative values, and, to those affected, is not a material form of remedy and apology as it does not benefit them as much as people who waited. Being able to regain credits using other methods does not change the disadvantage present regarding this particular method.

 

For clarity: I am not attempting to convince you of this position. I am attempting to make you understand your opponent's point-of-view since you clearly are struggling to do so. I am merely rebutting your complaints as to my summary here because they are a misunderstanding of what I was trying to demonstrate. There are many valid rebuttals to this viewpoint (which is why, while understanding it, I do not agree with its ultimate goal), but for you to make any of them you first have to understand what the viewpoint is.

 

Just to ensure you are aware that I don't actually hold that position, I'll rebut the position that it deserves a refund (note that I do not rebut them being disadvantaged, as that is a true statement): In regards to certain people being at a disadvantage in regards to training costs, it's important to point out that the disadvantage is not held only by characters upwards of Level 55. Any character leveled past Level 1 before training became free is at a disadvantage when compared to any character leveled past Level 1 now. Using this as a justification for refunding only training over the past week and not before is shaky. While more levels had been added the system itself had not changed and operated consistently for all players*, so an argument regarding the changing of the training system as a whole to compensate those that were disadvantaged by that change must include all those disadvantaged by that change to be valid. In other words, every active character Level 2 or higher prior to the 3.0.0a update.

 

This now brings us to the opinion part of the proceedings. I feel that players can (and almost certainly should) expect major system changes, including the removal of previously present costs. While the numbers are of course higher for a Level 58 who trained yesterday as opposed to a Level 8 who trained in 2012, they are both technically disadvantaged by this change. But as I said, system changes are a reasonable expectation for a game such as this** and while the timing does make the Early Access users' situation seem more unfortunate than others, especially due to their higher relative costs compared to lower levels, they still aren't the only ones being disadvantaged so limiting it to them over this past week simply because of their Early Access status.

 

There is precedent for refunding price changes to products made within a certain date of their purchase, so the various people in this thread implying that it's unheard of are rather confused, but that is generally a publicized policy held by the company and companies that do not have that policy are under no obligation to follow it.

 

*The double-charging of some previously purchased abilities was a side-effect of a skill system change, not a training system change. This also differs in that in that situation players had already purchased skills and were forced to purchase them again, whereas Level 56+ abilities were only ever trained once.

 

**Just to be clear, charging a person a second time for something they have already purchased just because the system has changed is not something one should reasonably expect to happen.

 

TL;DR: I was speaking only about net gain regarding trading costs and only in an attempt to clarify your opponent's position which you seemed unsure about; I do not actually hold that positoin myself.

[Andryah]

For clarity: I am not attempting to convince you of this position. I am attempting to make you understand your opponent's point-of-view since you clearly are struggling to do so.

 

I'm not struggling with understanding the viewpoints expressed. I understand them.. [and there are not just one, there are a number of them all intertwined in discussions]... so I get why discussion about it is confusing since people are talking past each other or attacking each other in some cases. I simply disagree with them, and rather then fire a snark blast at people who are upset.. I actually take time to explain why I disagree. It actually helps some players adjust in a positive manner and move forward.

 

It's up to the reader to decide for themselves.

 

If you think you are representing a majority view in the player base... prove it. You can't (the collective you.. not specifically YOU).

 

You can dig your heals in and stomp about how unfair it all is and make yourself miserable in the process. That is each players right.

 

Or.. you can acknowledge what they did, also acknowledge that it is an imperfect solution at the individual players level, and acknowledge that it is a good move for the collective of all players... and take advantage of free training for life and move forward.

 

The choice is there for each to decide. Personally, and as has been expressed by many, a refund would be gratefully accepted but is not required and it's time to move forward.

 

I feel sorry for people who are so locked up by events this week that they are bitter, angry, anxious over virtual money that serves no purpose except to as a resource to play the game. A very plentiful resource.

 

The refusal to accept what has transpired, and to refuse to forgive Bioware for their errors and embrace the remedy gift of free training only impedes the player who insists on not accepting and not moving forward. The demand for more, more, more, is selfish and self-entitled as far as I am concerned. The reason the forum responses by some are getting more aggressive with the unforgiving stance by some is that it's becoming absurd.

 

IT'S A GAME. Nobody took actual real life posessions or money from you. And nobody was forced to play early access and fast-rope multiple characters to 60. Those were player choices. Biowares real sin here was the retraining costs as far as I am concerned.. and those were very modest costs.. but still a mistake.... and they have more then paid us back for it with free training moving forward.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[alexubel]

This is a good thing. To be honest I didn't even notice there was no cost any more. I just clicked abilities and moved on in the past without paying attention to the cost anyway.

 

Now if they could just make it where you just got the abilities when you leveled instead of running back to a trainer every time I would be a happy camper.

[BAPACop]

I'm not struggling with understanding the viewpoints expressed.

If you aren't struggling with understanding what I'm saying, then I don't know what you're doing because quite a bit of what you wrote has little or nothing to do with what I wrote.

If you think you are representing a majority view in the player base... prove it.

I do not believe I am representing a majority view and have made no claim to be doing so. I am describing the position held by the people who disagree with you on this specific point. That is in no way a claim that said point is a majority view. In fact, I don't think anyone here has claimed to be representing the majority of players.

You (the collective you.. not specifically YOU) can't.

A poll of all users could easily show whether or not this was a majority-held viewpoint.

You can dig your heals in and stomp about how unfair it all is and make yourself miserable in the process.

I am not doing any of those things.

Or.. you can acknowledge what they did

Acknowledging that is, in fact, vital to the discussion, so I'm not sure what gave you the impression that it's not being acknowledged.

also acknowledge that it is an imperfect solution at the individual players level

I've been doing so this whole time.

and acknowledge that it is a good move for the collective of all players

Whether or not it was good was never under debate.

and take advantage of free training for life.

I'm doing that between comments.

IT'S A GAME. Nobody took actual real life posessions or money from you.

There's an economic approach known as the "cost-benefit analysis". Simply put, every hour put into a game is an hour not spent working a job an earning money. Thus the phrase "time is money". While the in-game currency may not be real, the time spent gaining it that could have been spent gaining real currency is real, so seeing the loss of in-game currency (translated: the loss of the time necessary to earn or re-earn it) as a tangible loss is not as far fetched as you're making it seem.

 

In any event, the issue is that you keep saying "the removal of training costs is a benefit to the player base as a whole" and your opponent is saying "you're right, but we're still at a disadvantage relative to everyone else", to which you respond "the removal of training costs is a benefit to the player base as a whole" with maybe a "selfish" or "self-entitled" thrown in for color. Saying "I simply disagree" or "it's becoming absurd" without actually addressing the argument isn't helping. Players who paid for training are at a disadvantage when compared to players who did not: They do not receive the same net benefit from the removal of training costs and will remain "out" that amount relative to their current total as long as the game runs regardless of any other benefits earned. This is not debatable, it is a fact. What is debatable is whether or not that disadvantage deserves a refund and, if so, to what extent. Up to this point, you have failed to address the actual debatable point in any way, shape, or form (saying it's not feasible is not explaining why it isn't deserved, only why it might not happen regardless), you just keep going back to the removal of all costs as if it's an equalizer when it is no such thing.

[Bachannal]

GLORY BE!!! Now howz abotu a few hundred thousand credits in refunds for what I spent to level my main toon?!?!

 

I'm kidding of course...mostly. I mean, sure, it was costly, but if I don't have to worry about paying to level my other 13 toons, it's ok.

 

Thanks for the change Bioware!

 

Hey folks,

 

Let’s talk a bit about training costs for your characters abilities. One thing has become clear from the player feedback in not only this thread, but since launch: players do not like training costs. It is a situation where every level you will see your hard earned credits go to a holographic Hutt doctor in order to make yourself a bit stronger. We have been talking about this topic internally for quite some time and when you add player feedback to the mix one thing becomes clear… We should make training costs a thing of the past.

 

Since launch, you have spent millions of credits training skills across your characters. As of our maintenance next week all ability training costs will be completely removed from the game, forever!

 

What does this mean for you? This means that starting next week, instead of spending your credits on training skills, you can now spend them on literally, anything else you want. Note that this only affects ability training, you will still need to spend credits to training schematics for Crew Skills, etc.

 

Thank you again for your feedback.

 

-eric

[Bachannal]

Not that I am disagreeing with you, but ONLY to play devil's advocate here - some of us spend ACTUAL money (on cartel packs), which we then use to sell stuff from said packs on GTN, which in turn gets converted to credits, which we then use for things like - leveling from 55 - 60. So, it's not all 100% "virtual" money for all of us. Some of it is quite real. Only in that respect do I get people actually expecting refunds. But how the hell is Bioware even going to do that? I'm sure they have a database with a table somewhere that tracks this sort of thing, but...if they had to figure out how to refund that many players down to the last credit....well, let's just say I'd rather them be spending their time on making the game better than nitpicking over credits that I can earn back in a plethora of ways.

 

Really wish they hadn't nerfed the Security Chests on Rishi and Yavin 4 though, lol.

 

 

 

Quite honestly, I don't understand why some people feel they're entitled to receive their money back or whatever, considering we're talking about virtual money.

 

I really don't.

 

What I have an issue with is stuff like this:

 

 

As such, I'm glad this has come to pass.

 

Being FORCED to pay for any ability YET AGAIN because someone -- theoretically speaking of course -- finds the name offensive is eyerolling to say the least.

[Hotte]

Not that I am disagreeing with you, but ONLY to play devil's advocate here - some of us spend ACTUAL money (on cartel packs), which we then use to sell stuff from said packs on GTN, which in turn gets converted to credits, which we then use for things like - leveling from 55 - 60. So, it's not all 100% "virtual" money for all of us. [...]

 

Hmm....were you forced by anyone to spend real money for cartel packs in order to sell stuff on the GTN in order to have money for training? If not, then you did so by your own choice. I can't see any obligation for anyone to refund you for your choice.

 

If I misunderstood your argumentation, please lt me know, but I guess the situation you describes is a particularly special one.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Hotte

[BAPACop]

Hmm....were you forced by anyone to spend real money for cartel packs in order to sell stuff on the GTN in order to have money for training? If not, then you did so by your own choice. I can't see any obligation for anyone to refund you for your choice.

So he doesn't deserve his credits back because he sold cartel items to get them? ...what?

[Hotte]

So he doesn't deserve his credits back because he sold cartel items to get them? ...what?

 

Great way to twist my words or rather give them a meaning that was never there. I never said whether he deserves or doesn't deserve a refund. I merely stated that that particular situation where he bought cartel packs to make credits with them is a very special way to do things.

[BAPACop]

I never said whether he deserves or doesn't deserve a refund.

Then what does this mean?

I can't see any obligation for anyone to refund you for your choice.