Kaggath Battlegrounds Semi-Finals: IDD vs Fist of the Empire vs Phantom Hegemony

[Beniboybling]

After time thinking, mulling over and looking at some old threads, I am finding it highly unlikely there is Bias in any of us truly and more of just a disconnect/ Different interpretations of the same material.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Grievous is implied to be as fast as Mace Windu and as strong as Master Yoda. He can fight Mace Windu on equal footing and hard-press Dooku in lightsaber combat. Not sure what IG-88 can do here, especially since most, if not all, of his weapons are of little consequence to Grievous.

[Aurbere]

Catching up on shows I was missing while finishing class quests last week. Got down to the wire and only finished my last character 1 hour before it was over. So now enoying shows. Also working on another thread to help myself truly understand the seperation between where I am seeing things with era's and the way you guys see things.

 

After time thinking, mulling over and looking at some old threads, I am finding it highly unlikely there is Bias in any of us truly and more of just a disconnect/ Different interpretations of the same material. I am hoping the thread can be enlightening to me.

 

 

Fair warning, the way I put things, may be taken in the wrong way and its highly likely the intent of the thread will be lost, hopefully people will focus less on their Minor (or Major) gripes with what the OP is going to be and try to stay more with what the heart of it is trying to do, its also very greedy of me because its largely being done to benefit my understanding of other's veiw points, and for others to understand the direction I come from in debates so as to gain general understanding of all those around.

 

That is completely fair. No worries.

[Aurbere]

 

[Beniboybling]

That is completely fair. No worries.

No its not! How dare you favour shows, questing and reflections on life over us!

Perfect.

 

Oh and Aurbere, don't think your safe, I shall be dealing with your fleet in due time.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Oh and Aurbere, don't think your safe, I shall be dealing with your fleet in due time.

 

Bring it on!

[Beniboybling]

Bring it on!

Your passion pleases us, Aurbere. Fight. Struggle. Only that will help us to evolve.

[Aurbere]

Your passion pleases us, Aurbere. Fight. Struggle. Only that will help us to evolve.

 

Who do you think you are? Vector?

 

Bring it on, bugman!

[Beniboybling]

Who do you think you are? Vector?

 

Bring it on, bugman!

Ha, no.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Ha, no.

 

Darn you, Sibyl!

[Silenceo]

Those comics just don't make sense... Also, no way that was Beskar. As for the staffs, strength alone shouldn't have allowed him to cleave them, I almost feel as if the author was unaware of the durability of these metals and merely wanted to make Grievous out to be the monster we all wanted him to be. That said, I feel Wolf would be much better suited to reply to that argument due to the evidence required, but I do not know if he is currently subbed or not. However, I will say that did we not agree that it would be unlikely for them to even meet?

 

On that note I will counter the argument that you put forward concerning him not being able to dock which I think IG-88 can defeat. I could go into a big long winded explanation, and while I can't seem to find the video... I will describe it instead. Remember that time that Han Solo did what appeared to be an attack run on a Star Destroyer, and latched onto their hull despite them having shields up? That is essentially what will happen here except the Malevolent will not be aware someone was near them due to the cloaking device.

 

As for the alarms. If he is able to do this, I am sure he can deactivate the alarms when he boards.

 

"IG-88 stood like a monolith, the lasers in his fingers in his fingertips powered up and ready to fire at anyone who might stumble upon his covert activity. It took IG-88B several minutes to upload and condense the entire database from the Executor's computer core; a huge feast of information he would digest in the privacy of the IG-2000.

 

As the IG-2000 cruised on autopilot in a random course to baffle any tracking attempts, he sat back and mentally scrolled through the millions of files he had stolen from the Empire.

 

- Taken from I think, therefore I am"

 

Sadly I do not have the full scene so anyone with the book correct me if I am wrong. I simply ask because it mentions how he is ready to kill anyone that should stumble upon him. The mere fact that the alarms hadn't sounded and it hadn't been discovered yet on the Executor of all places as he stole so many files, and never suspected of it afterwards... This most definitely would not be the first time aboard a highly important and secure vessel and messed with their data underneath their very noses.

 

As for them countering IG-88 in such a short time, that is highly unlikely because of how it would hinder their own forces as a whole, not to mention that would take time. Which ultimately would not be a big obstacle to IG-88. Before getting into the hows and whys though, I would prefer to go over how they wouldn't even be instituted in the first place.

 

- As previously mentioned they do not start off with knowledge of him.

 

- Should he be spotted it would still take time to match the data to him, nor would the majority try until after the fact as we have seen many times. When intruders are noticed by the CIS droids they tend to not message command saying *Hey, look at hall 2104 and tell me all you can about this opponent* they merely open fire, and it ends up not being reported. We saw that repeatedly. Even if the II was alerted it would still take time to find him in the database if they even wanted to make a call to their HQ to access their archives.

 

- IG-88 has proven to be quite stealthy, such as in the quote above.

 

- Jamming tends to not effect internal systems unless specifically pointed towards that purpose. *We see this even during the Malevolence arc*

 

- Even if the alarm goes off it would soon be de-activated and once inside trying to find him when he does not wish to be found can be quite... troublesome. Nor do I think Grievous would go himself since it is unlikely to be a Jedi.

 

- His sensor equipment is essentially the bleeding edge of tech and would aid him in staying unnoticed, even if he has the Dark Troopers with him.

 

- No way to really track him once he is inside the ship

 

I also would like to note that IG-88 is not as out classed in sheer strength as you seem to think, considering:

 

"They marched toward the armored doors that sealed the Holowan Laboratories' inner-complex. Rather than taking many minutes to repair the computer systems sufficiently to delve into the passwords and break through the cyberlocks, the five powerful assassin droids worked together to literally rip the nine-metric-ton door away from the wall. They tossed it aside, where it pulverized the remaining data-storage systems.

 

-Taken from I think, therefore I am."

 

Granted, there was 4 IG-88's and an IG-72, but even then considering the IG-72 is an inferior model, they are each still lifting more than a ton, and as if that wasn't enough, they then toss it across the room... I trust you have an example of Grievous performing a similar strength feat? Though if you are going to post the Video of him bowling boxes aside on the Malevolence, those items are not exactly quantifiable, heck, we don't even know if they were full or empty!

 

Anyways, the only real obstacle left is the potential alarms and the issues that they may cause, but while IG-88 would be unable to access the CCC from his entry point, as has been shown all throughout star wars, wall plugins are everywhere. It would only take a few moments for him to access one and download maps of the vessel, as well as throwing the vessel into lock down, only leaving the doors he needs open. Now, this last part would take longer than usual but it would be well worth the effort as it effectively eliminates most possible conflicts. Now, reasonably, he would only be able to get the map and perhaps the location of a high priority access point for him to activate the lockdown from. That done it wouldn't take that long since they would have maps to reach that critical access point and activate the lockdown, essentially guaranteeing their success.

 

Of course there are errors in this plan, but there are errors in all plans. This done, off to experience SoR I go!

 

Side Note: Most of this was just thought up on my way home from class, so dig into it at your own peril...

 

After Thought: I know Grievous can cut through doors faster than most jedi due to coordination with all 4 blades, but due to the size of the vessel that would simply be too much to cut through in such a time sensitive manner. Though, I would find it funny if he had carbonite war droids with him when he confronted IG-88 finally, likely after the CCC was hacked though didn't activate them immediately due to knowing Grievous was coming via the security system. Once Grievous confronts him though, I wonder how he would react if his own droids "iced" him. I know, an unlikely scenario, but an amusing one.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Silenceo

[Aurbere]

I do believe IG-88 was on the Executor when he did that. I think he did that during the time he was on board for the Bounty briefing.

[Silenceo]

I do believe IG-88 was on the Executor when he did that. I think he did that during the time he was on board for the Bounty briefing.

 

Aye, though I do not have the book on hand to check the full scene, I am unsure if that was during the briefing itself or after. Either way would be a great feat. Accessing that much data, undetected, while staring at Darth Vader without any plug ins, that would still be a nice feat.

 

However, if it was the other and he somehow go to the access point deep in the vessel, that is indeed a nice infiltration feat, being undetected by anyone in such a restricted area.

 

Though I did state he was on the Executor for that feat. Frankly its been a few years since I read that book, so I can't remember which of the two it was, either way, incredible feats that either one would apply quite well here.

 

Side Note: It is most likely the first.

 

After Thought: Edited the description after that quote in the long post so that it is more accurate.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Silenceo

[Aurbere]

Aye, though I do not have the book on hand to check the full scene, I am unsure if that was during the briefing itself or after. Either way would be a great feat. Accessing that much data, undetected, while staring at Darth Vader without any plug ins, that would still be a nice feat.

 

However, if it was the other and he somehow go to the access point deep in the vessel, that is indeed a nice infiltration feat, being undetected by anyone in such a restricted area.

 

Though I did state he was on the Executor for that feat. Frankly its been a few years since I read that book, so I can't remember which of the two it was, either way, incredible feats that either one would apply quite well here.

 

Side Note: It is most likely the first.

 

After Thought: Edited the description after that quote in the long post so that it is more accurate.

 

It was before or after the briefing. I'm fairly certain it wasn't during.

[Aurbere]

OK, Wolf just told me that the Executor feat for IG-88 was after the briefing.

[Aurbere]

Alright, well, if there are no further arguments for my posts on IG-88 and the Shadow Droids, I'll be making my own arguments tomorrow.

[Silenceo]

1. The EMP is a radius around the Fury, you'd have to ask Sel what we're talking about as far as that goes, though.

 

2. After a time, they could reboot their systems, but that EMP will give just enough time for Interceptors to capitalize on the temporary effects and destroy many fighters. The EMP could also possibly fry the cyborgs' systems.

 

3. Sith don't care about Friendly fire. Kilran may be upset, but he can't really do much about it if things just happen that way.

 

4. Force users can see through cloaking devices with ease, so stealth is of no consequence to Fury pilots.

 

5. Do shields actually block EMPs? From what I've seen and can remember, they don't. So Skiprays probably won't survive.

 

Remember that this is just a counter to the Shadow Droids, their link with TIEs, and a tool in general. I don't expect it to immediately nullify the Droid Meld, but it will shut down enemy fighters, and that's the main point. It will still have an effect, and that effect will make victory in dogfights much easier.

 

1. Sel, any answer? Quite important, this is!

 

2. The main issue I see with this is that the IDD fighters will most likely be playing quite defensively due to numbers disadvantage meaning that the Fury's would have to fly right past Tartan's which would likely hurt them quite a bit. Game mechanics aside, the Fury's will not fair well against them.

 

3. True enough, but nor do I think they would use it carelessly, nor even too often. I say this simply because most sith don't really seem to use such gadgets... *again, game mechanics aside...* Heck, it could be argued they do not have this device since all the NPC Sith pilots we see in Fury's *during the missions* never use such things. Only the Wrath and Nox do, which makes sense due to player character and prestige.

 

4. Usually true, but those with the stealth tech also are technically force sensitive. Force Sensitive with stealth tech > force sensitive without stealth tech. Besides, I still think both of their use of the dark side in piloting will essentially cancel each other out.

 

5. Considering EMP's are often harkened very closely to Ion cannons, I would say yes. The fast is that most EMP's are able to just brute force their way past/through the shields of most vessels of similar size. Such as the Malevolence super weapon. However, the Skiprays are about half their size, except for their size they are incredibly durable and advanced. Their shield strength is part of what makes them classifiable as a capital ship. It is for that reason, among others, that I think Skiprays could stay operational through a EMP AoE. *Not multiple in quick succession mind you...* Though, it should also be noted that due to the severe training that those inside the Skipray have *page 2 for the quotes* it is likely that even should it be hit by the EMP the disabling effect would not last long. You can blame top notch training, drills, and all around epicness of the Imperial academies for that.

 

Also, not having to do with the EMP's really, but IG-2000 has showed strong enough weaponry to essentially blast right through the Millennium Falcon's strength to impact directly on the hull in one blast. I can not recall if that was from the Wiki I saw, or from Wolf's thread, so I would have to double check the feat however.

 

As for the points about IG-88, since it seems IG-88 will not be broadcasting until he plugs into the Malevolence, the jamming from the Sovereign essentially becomes a none factor. That is because as Beni *or someone...* mentioned, the jamming capabilities of the PH fleet are so nice that they only jam enemy communications and leave their own alone.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Silenceo

[Silenceo]

OK, Wolf just told me that the Executor feat for IG-88 was after the briefing.

 

Did he happen to mention if it was him doing some infiltration to reach a point within the vessel, or if it was another one of his UNLIMITED WIFIIIIIII! feats?

[Aurbere]

1. Sel, any answer? Quite important, this is!

 

2. The main issue I see with this is that the IDD fighters will most likely be playing quite defensively due to numbers disadvantage meaning that the Fury's would have to fly right past Tartan's which would likely hurt them quite a bit. Game mechanics aside, the Fury's will not fair well against them.

 

3. True enough, but nor do I think they would use it carelessly, nor even too often. I say this simply because most sith don't really seem to use such gadgets... *again, game mechanics aside...* Heck, it could be argued they do not have this device since all the NPC Sith pilots we see in Fury's *during the missions* never use such things. Only the Wrath and Nox do, which makes sense due to player character and prestige.

 

4. Usually true, but those with the stealth tech also are technically force sensitive. Force Sensitive with stealth tech > force sensitive without stealth tech. Besides, I still think both of their use of the dark side in piloting will essentially cancel each other out.

 

5. Considering EMP's are often harkened very closely to Ion cannons, I would say yes. The fast is that most EMP's are able to just brute force their way past/through the shields of most vessels of similar size. Such as the Malevolence super weapon. However, the Skiprays are about half their size, except for their size they are incredibly durable and advanced. Their shield strength is part of what makes them classifiable as a capital ship. It is for that reason, among others, that I think Skiprays could stay operational through a EMP AoE. *Not multiple in quick succession mind you...* Though, it should also be noted that due to the severe training that those inside the Skipray have *page 2 for the quotes* it is likely that even should it be hit by the EMP the disabling effect would not last long. You can blame top notch training, drills, and all around epicness of the Imperial academies for that.

 

Also, not having to do with the EMP's really, but IG-2000 has showed strong enough weaponry to essentially blast right through the Millennium Falcon's strength to impact directly on the hull in one blast. I can not recall if that was from the Wiki I saw, or from Wolf's thread, so I would have to double check the feat however.

 

As for the points about IG-88, since it seems IG-88 will not be broadcasting until he plugs into the Malevolence, the jamming from the Sovereign essentially becomes a none factor. That is because as Beni *or someone...* mentioned, the jamming capabilities of the PH fleet are so nice that they only jam enemy communications and leave their own alone.

 

2. Not to worry about this, Sil. My strategy I will post tomorrow will fix that issue.

 

3. Game mechanics are not an argument. You know that, Sil. Sel has said that all Fury's are fully equipped and ready to go. It would be foolish of us to say that the pilots won't use them because game mechanics, don't you think?

 

4. The senses of the Force users render the stealth a non-factor, so they are effectively even, with the Furys edging out due to superior technology and weaponry in their ships.

 

5. I'd have to do research on that, but it makes sense. I would assume that an EMP would just be an intensified ion weapon.

 

Jamming will still throw the enemy into disarray, even if IG doesn't go for his hacking strategy.

 

Oh, and Sel is yuking it up on KMC. She needs to get back to what actually matters. Nothing is more important than the Kaggath!

Edited December 3, 2014 by Aurbere

[Aurbere]

Did he happen to mention if it was him doing some infiltration to reach a point within the vessel, or if it was another one of his UNLIMITED WIFIIIIIII! feats?

 

No, but I'm pretty sure IG-88 linked up with a terminal to do it.

[Silenceo]

No, but I'm pretty sure IG-88 linked up with a terminal to do it.

 

Most likely infiltration then. Couldn't just do so in the main hall.

 

Though, we would really need to know if it was a standard terminal, or if it was one of the high security ones, which will help dictate how far into the ship IG-88 actually has to go to accomplish his goal.

[Silenceo]

2. Not to worry about this, Sil. My strategy I will post tomorrow will fix that issue.

 

3. Game mechanics are not an argument. You know that, Sil. Sel has said that all Fury's are fully equipped and ready to go. It would be foolish of us to say that the pilots won't use them because game mechanics, don't you think?

 

4. The senses of the Force users render the stealth a non-factor, so they are effectively even, with the Furys edging out due to superior technology and weaponry in their ships.

 

5. I'd have to do research on that, but it makes sense. I would assume that an EMP would just be an intensified ion weapon.

 

Jamming will still throw the enemy into disarray, even if IG doesn't go for his hacking strategy.

 

Oh, and Sel is yuking it up on KMC. She needs to get back to what actually matters. Nothing is more important than the Kaggath!

 

1. You always lead me on with all these plans Aurbere! When will you submit to my droids?!

 

2. Just saying, they are all scripted... /sarcasm I was more pointing towards the fact that most sith that we know of that were pilots as well didn't really rely on such tactics in order to get their advantage, though they surely were not above using it. I still think we have to account for recharge though, it ain't an Aura.

 

3. The difference being this is a large battle and the Sith can not rely on their eyes or sensors to combat the Shadow droids should they be unable to use their EMP's, while the Shadow droids retain all such abilities. On that note, I might admit that despite this the Droid Meld might bring them a bit closer due to them having to maintain it. Though, the coordination and decisive strikes such a Meld allows could prove quite the focus fire...

 

4. Skiprays and Imperial Pilots/Gunners/Academy Graduates ftw!

 

5. Pssst, remember, Skiprays have jamming too! Such will make them quite hard to get a lock on, and they have the durability to survive should a few shots glance off their hull.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Silenceo

[Aurbere]

Most likely infiltration then. Couldn't just do so in the main hall.

 

Though, we would really need to know if it was a standard terminal, or if it was one of the high security ones, which will help dictate how far into the ship IG-88 actually has to go to accomplish his goal.

 

I'd assume it was high-security. The Empire doesn't keep the plans to the ultimate weapon on some public terminal, you know?

[Aurbere]

1. You always lead me on with all these plans Aurbere! When will you submit to my droids?!

 

2. Just saying, they are all scripted... /sarcasm I was more pointing towards the fact that most sith that we know of that were pilots as well didn't really rely on such tactics in order to get their advantage, though they surely were not above using it. I still think we have to account for recharge though, it ain't an Aura.

 

3. The difference being this is a large battle and the Sith can not rely on their eyes or sensors to combat the Shadow droids should they be unable to use their EMP's, while the Shadow droids retain all such abilities. On that note, I might admit that despite this the Droid Meld might bring them a bit closer due to them having to maintain it. Though, the coordination and decisive strikes such a Meld allows could prove quite the focus fire...

 

4. Skiprays and Imperial Pilots/Gunners/Academy Graduates ftw!

 

5. Pssst, remember, Skiprays have jamming too! Such will make them quite hard to get a lock on, and they have the durability to survive should a few shots glance off their hull.

 

1. I will never submit! But your droids will submit to the TRUE masters of the galaxy!

 

Hint: That's the Sith.

 

2. Game mechanics isn't exactly an argument. Maybe they just didn't have those equipped? Shouldn't be a problem here. And Sith not using dirty tactics to gain an advantage? I really doubt that.

 

3. They can see through their stealth with the Force, with ease, actually. So they should be able to fight the Shadow Droids just fine. Plus, they have better ships and, obviously, superior control of the Force. Trained Sith are better than Force-imbued people.

 

4. Blech.

 

5. Indeed they do, but they can't handle the full weight of numbers coming down upon them! They are outnumbered massively, and they won't be able to do much to the Fist fleet thanks to the huge amount of point-defense guns (to be made explicitly clear in my offensive tomorrow)

[Silenceo]

1. I will never submit! But your droids will submit to the TRUE masters of the galaxy!

 

Hint: That's the Sith.

 

2. Game mechanics isn't exactly an argument. Maybe they just didn't have those equipped? Shouldn't be a problem here. And Sith not using dirty tactics to gain an advantage? I really doubt that.

 

3. They can see through their stealth with the Force, with ease, actually. So they should be able to fight the Shadow Droids just fine. Plus, they have better ships and, obviously, superior control of the Force. Trained Sith are better than Force-imbued people.

 

4. Blech.

 

5. Indeed they do, but they can't handle the full weight of numbers coming down upon them! They are outnumbered massively, and they won't be able to do much to the Fist fleet thanks to the huge amount of point-defense guns (to be made explicitly clear in my offensive tomorrow)

 

What I am about to say, shall nullify all of these arguments at once...

 

 

 

 

Alright, jokes aside...

 

1. "I AM the Sith!" *Upon Jerec's Emperorship* Every one of these factions have dark siders, so you could be referring to any of us here.

 

2. Again, the game mechanics portion was a jest. I was saying that it isn't often that we see sith employ such tactics. I did say they were not above using it to gain an advantage, merely t hat we do not see them relying on such gadgets often. The point I am trying to get at is that while it will be used, it likely won't be spammed kus they feel "Eviler" blasting them with lasers instead. *Admit it, most sith fire lasers instead of EMP, missiles, ect... search your feelings, you know it to be true!* By this I mean just look at all the sith throughout history, they really love lasers!

 

3. Eeeeeeeh, better ships I am not so sure... Other than the EMP, the only things the Fury has over them is size and reactor size... Everything else is pretty much the Shadow Droid's favor. While they were not trained to use the force, the fact that they have the processing speed of a droid as well as the force would likely help even the odds in the realm of a dog fight. Note, I am not saying 1 Shadow Droid can easily defeat a Fury, I am merely saying they are more formidable than you seem to believe. Heck, they have their own EMP's they can use too, and these ones are as spamable as laser cannons!

 

4. Imperial's For Life.

 

5. Again, defensive so the Fist fighter defenses won't really come into play here. When I say defensive, remember who their commanders are. It actually would take multiple of your own star fighters, minus the Fury of course, to take down a single Skipray due to its turrets, defenses, jamming capabilities, ect ect. They are one tough nut...

 

 

 

 

Also, Aurbere, this very much reminds me of this during this match talking to you and Beni about our factions... Due to how round about we all keep making it I mean.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Silenceo