Will raiding in MMOs one day be a thing of the past?

[LordArtemis]

Investing in Raiding is not a waste, far from it. But it is not likely the most efficient use of development resources. That becomes more of a reality as the market for hardcores continues to shrink year after year.

 

It is much more cost and time efficient to create content that caters to and engages casuals, including but not limited to market content.

Edited December 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Khevar]

It is much more cost and time efficient to create content that caters to and engages casuals, including but not limited to market content.

You might be right.

 

But let me ask you this: In this themepark, story-based Star Wars MMO, what other type of content does the casual player want more than more story?

 

I'm only guessing here, as I don't personally develop MMOs, but adding in new chapters to the story seems to require phenomenally more resources than adding 4-person and 8-person group content.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Khevar

[ScarletBlaze]

Casuals make companies more money, there is no doubt. But the hardcore crowd is what makes the community, the hardcore crowd is who makes the guides and teaches the casuals how to play. The hardcore crowd is much more important than you think to the health of a game.

 

Though some people use the guides, not everyone does. I been here since launch and have yet to use a guide. The people I play with don't either. We enjoy learning the mechanics and stuff on our own.

 

It takes each person to make a community. No one is more important than the other. It takes each of us to make a community, whether they are harcore or casual.

[LordArtemis]

You might be right.

 

But let me ask you this: In this themepark, story-based Star Wars MMO, what other type of content does the casual player want more than more story?

 

I'm only guessing here, as I don't personally develop MMOs, but adding in new chapters to the story seems to require phenomenally more resources than adding 4-person and 8-person group content.

 

I couldnt answer that conclusively using study data, because that information has been far to general to be of use.

 

I can answer it personally, but just be aware this is absolutely speculative.

 

QoL features. That is what I believe casuals crave the most. When you remove artificial barriers to gameplay it makes casuals very happy, even more so than more storyline.

 

Next in like would probably be storyline. After that, you would have things like market fluff, appearance, minigames, alternate activities in game, RP, actual combat and sound experience, in any order.

 

Group content, as well as end game content would not likely be on the list. Neither would PVP.

Edited December 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Khevar]

QoL features. That is what I believe casuals crave the most. When you remove artificial barriers to gameplay it makes casuals very happy, even more so than more storyline.

 

Next in like would probably be storyline. After that, you would have things like market fluff, appearance, minigames, alternate activities in game, RP, actual combat and sound experience, in any order.

For what it's worth, I think all of these things would be good to have.

 

And things like minigames and alternative activities would probably do wonders for breathing new life into the game.

[AmericanNate]

I couldnt answer that conclusively using study data, because that information has been far to general to be of use.

 

I can answer it personally, but just be aware this is absolutely speculative.

 

QoL features. That is what I believe casuals crave the most. When you remove artificial barriers to gameplay it makes casuals very happy, even more so than more storyline.

 

Next in like would probably be storyline. After that, you would have things like market fluff, appearance, minigames, alternate activities in game, RP, actual combat and sound experience, in any order.

 

Group content, as well as end game content would not likely be on the list. Neither would PVP.

 

You just described a single player rpg.

[Warrgames]

Generally no one, because it can be said that casuals do not use websites. Most of the game experience for a casual player comes directly from the game itself.

 

That is, of course, in general terms. There are always exceptions.

 

But generally speaking, a casual player does not engage in outside content. it is just not the normal behavior for a casual player.

 

I would like to add that stating the likely state of the MMO market at present is not an indictment of hardcore players, nor is it a license to ignore the needs of those players.

 

Study after study has concluded, without a doubt (other than different definitions for what makes a player "hardcore") that hardcore players are much more loyal and consistent than casual players. Casuals tend to be transient.

 

What those studies also generally conclude, however, is that traditional hardcore players represent anywhere from 10 to 30 percent of the current worldwide market (down from 70 to 80 percent of the market 10 years ago), depending on which report you source. The market of traditional hardcore players is shrinking, on average, by around 1 to 3 percent per year.

 

It seems the hardcore base is moving on to console FPS games and abandoning the MMO market.

 

It is an unfortunate but likely reality. Most if not all MMOs will eventually be VERY casual oriented. This game is likely no exception.

 

So how do fan based website stay up and running without traffic from casual? Since hardcore players are on the down trend and the money these sites are making is based off of traffic. There has been talk that some of these fan based sites get a kick back from gaming companies but that is whole another topic. Casual players may not go there to prefect their rotation or learn HM or NiM OP boss but there is a lot of information there that they do use because lack of time to find or figure it out.

 

Side note there are also a lot more MMO players today than 10 years ago. 70 hard core players out of 100 is 70%. 140 hardcore player out of 500 is 30%. The number of hardcore player maybe increasing just not at the same rate as causals.

[LordArtemis]

You just described a single player rpg.

 

Sure. I also described a modern MMO. The description does not take a stand, it simply takes a snapshot of the market at present.

 

I would point out that casuals are generally social but not cooperative.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Um, developing raid content is a poor business decision for most games as they are only used by a tiny fraction of the player base. These games eventually have to turn a profit and as such need to focus on low level and casual content as that is where the money is. I honestly am tired of subsidizing content I, like the vast majority of players, have no interest doing and will be glad to see games stop wasting resources on them.

 

I disagree with you here. This game needs more raid content to keep players like me who enjoy challenges playing. Without us SWTOR's cash shop revenue would dwindle and the game wouldn't be as profitable.

I was a solo player for a long time, but as soon as I started raiding the game became a lot more fun. You can solo most of the game's content, but if you're not at least running sm Ops from time to time then you are missing out on a very fun experience.

[LordArtemis]

So how do fan based website stay up and running without traffic from casual? Since hardcore players are on the down trend and the money these sites are making is based off of traffic. There has been talk that some of these fan based sites get a kick back from gaming companies but that is whole another topic. Casual players may not go there to prefect their rotation or learn HM or NiM OP boss but there is a lot of information there that they do use because lack of time to find or figure it out.

 

Side note there are also a lot more MMO players today than 10 years ago. 70 hard core players out of 100 is 70%. 140 hardcore player out of 500 is 30%. The number of hardcore player maybe increasing just not at the same rate as causals.

 

Sure, on both points I can see what you are saying and it makes sense, definitely on the second point. The percentage does not generally mean bodies, it means the percentage of current players in the market.

 

But if the market of hardcores is growing, it is growing much slower than casuals, as you indicated. Obviously the number of players had increased over time. I think it may have contracted 3 years ago, but I would have to look back to see for sure if that was the case.

 

As far as your point about traffic, I can't speak to that. I have never seen any studies of website traffic with respect to gamers of any type. so to speak on it would be pure speculation on my part.

Edited December 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Khevar]

So how do fan based website stay up and running without traffic from casual? Since hardcore players are on the down trend and the money these sites are making is based off of traffic.

This reminds me, I was very sad to hear that AMR is not intending to update their gear database for the 3.0.

 

Back when 2.0 dropped, multiple fan-based websites updates their skill calculators pretty quickly. But for this expansion, it's only Dulfy's site. No word from any of the others.

 

[LordArtemis]

I disagree with you here. This game needs more raid content to keep players like me who enjoy challenges playing. Without us SWTOR's cash shop revenue would dwindle and the game wouldn't be as profitable.

I was a solo player for a long time, but as soon as I started raiding the game became a lot more fun. You can solo most of the game's content, but if you're not at least running sm Ops from time to time then you are missing out on a very fun experience.

 

Well, I can't argue with you from a personal perspective, as it would be foolish to try and define your own experience and desires...you are the best source for that information.

 

But I would argue that the modern market clearly demonstrates that relying heavily on end game content is not a healthy model. The most recent example would be Wildstar. They ignored industry analysis clearly at their own peril.

 

You can't argue with the likely truth of the matter....it is true that a smaller portion of players in any particular game participate in end game content. The amounts vary by the game....many games have released this information over time, and the report has generally been the same.

 

I can't speak to percentages because they vary too widely to be quoted. I will only say that I have not seen a single public statement that provided information supporting a majority participation in end game content. It was always a minority, in some cases a very small one.

Edited December 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Warrgames]

This reminds me, I was very sad to hear that AMR is not intending to update their gear database for the 3.0.

 

Back when 2.0 dropped, multiple fan-based websites updates their skill calculators pretty quickly. But for this expansion, it's only Dulfy's site. No word from any of the others.

 

 

Isn't Dufly's skill calculator...

"SWTOR Disciplines Calculator built by swtor_miner. This calculator currently only displays Classes and Disciplines that have been shown on Official Livestreams."

 

AMR is maintained by the fans. Without modes/addons that track loot its hard for sites like AMR to stay up to date.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Warrgames

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Well, I can't argue with you from a personal perspective, as it would be foolish to try and define your own experience and desires...you are the best source for that information.

 

But I would argue that the modern market clearly demonstrates that relying heavily on end game content is not a healthy model. The most recent example would be Wildstar. They ignored industry analysis clearly at their own peril.

 

You can't argue with the likely truth of the matter....it is true that a smaller portion of players in any particular game participate in end game content. The amounts vary by the game....many games have released this information over time, and the report has generally been the same.

 

I can't speak to percentages because they vary too widely to be quoted. I will only say that I have not seen a single public statement that provided information supporting a majority participation in end game content. It was always a minority, in some cases a very small one.

 

The raiding population on the Harbinger is super healthy and it is easy to run every Op that drops relevant comms on multiple characters every week. I saw the same for the brief amount of time I was on Shadowlands as well.

Raiding in this game will remain strong because it's Star Wars. In games like Wildstar players like me didn't feel any connection to their characters, so taking on challenging content wasn't a priority because we didn't care like we do for our Star Wars chars.

Raiding is alive and well in SWTOR and it would be a HUGE mistake to not continue to develop Ops. This game can be soloed already, but once you start running Ops you'll realize how much more fun you'll have in your SWTOR experience.

[LordArtemis]

The raiding population on the Harbinger is super healthy and it is easy to run every Op that drops relevant comms on multiple characters every week. I saw the same for the brief amount of time I was on Shadowlands as well.

Raiding in this game will remain strong because it's Star Wars. In games like Wildstar players like me didn't feel any connection to their characters, so taking on challenging content wasn't a priority because we didn't care like we do for our Star Wars chars.

Raiding is alive and well in SWTOR and it would be a HUGE mistake to not continue to develop Ops. This game can be soloed already, but once you start running Ops you'll realize how much more fun you'll have in your SWTOR experience.

 

Fair enough, but my point still stands.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Fair enough, but my point still stands.

 

Do you run Operations? Not sure if you've already mentioned it yet. Just curious

[Khevar]

AMR is maintained by the fans. Without modes/addons that track loot its hard for sites like AMR to stay up to date.

How does one participate in updating it? Their forums have no info that I could glean.

[LordArtemis]

Do you run Operations? Not sure if you've already mentioned it yet. Just curious

 

I have only ran two. Both were loads of fun.

 

Just to be clear...I strongly support end game content, and I am an old school gamer. BUT I am pro casual because I have adjusted my expectations to fall in line with current market realities.

 

I was more focused on PVP in the past. Now I am a casual player that dabbles in end game content in this game occasionally. I only run premades however. PUGs equal hatred, short lifespan and broken keyboards.

Edited December 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Warrgames]

How does one participate in updating it? Their forums have no info that I could glean.

 

No idea, it was something someone said in a thread about AMR and 3.0. That it was fan updated.

[Khevar]

No idea, it was something someone said in a thread about AMR and 3.0. That it was fan updated.

Ah, thanks. I'd heard they were going to open source it. I suspect its not ready yet.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

I have only ran two. Both were loads of fun.

 

Just to be clear...I strongly support end game content, and I am an old school gamer. BUT I am pro casual because I have adjusted my expectations to fall in line with current market realities.

 

I was more focused on PVP in the past. Now I am a casual player that dabbles in end game content occasionally. I only run premades however. PUGs equal hatred, short lifespan and broken keyboards.

 

PUGs can be evil lol! I've actually had way more positive experiences in PUGs than bad though.

I don't know what type of player I am. I enjoy soloing dailies, heroics, normal fp's and tactical, but I also enjoy the challenges of a HM raid. I also sink an absurd amount of money into the CM. I guess I'll classify myself as a simple gamer who enjoys STWOR

BTW, I also enjoy story content!

Edited December 12, 2014 by ZETA_SCORPII

[LyraineAlei]

It's been a while since I posted in this thread, and I have to admit, if raids/Ops go away, I would be sad. Maybe if they had Ops scalable to group size or something (like 4-man, 8-man, 10-man as well as the 16-man), the "raider" population would grow.

 

From what I've seen, many would like to do raids, but getting a group set up, or GF, takes more time than many have available.

 

And even then, there is a great deal of toxicity to the raider community, based on what I have read in Fleet Chat, where first time raiders are often insulted for not having the experience yet and admit it. Or people are sitting around laying the blame on bad tanks/DPS/healers (usually the first and last of that set) for the wipes. And I forgot the people who scream "Space bar or kick!!11!!1one".

 

I think raids are a great idea, should not be a required part of the game, but also need help to open them up to more than just "elite raiders".

 

Maybe Jesus Droid for a [solo] version of the raids so people know where things are on a map and see the story before actually raiding. Sure, the Solo versions of FA didn't teach much about the tactics, but I didn't know about the healing posts, or that certain " bosses" called/summoned adds until I ran them in [solo].

 

*I play a rather significant amount of time each day, I admit. Usually in the evening while watching TV with my grandmother, wearing my headphones to muffle the loud TV and hear my own game, but I feel daunted about the idea of waiting around for a group to be built up just to start an Op before I pass out to the land of Sleep.

[LordArtemis]

If i wanted to keep raiding alive as it is now, I would do three things....

 

1) Remove death penalties from SM flashpoints.

2) Have tactical versions of all SM flashpoints.

3) Offer the "god droid" for solo mode SM flashpoints.

 

This would lower the bar for group content entry drastically, and would encourage more casuals to participate in end game content. I believe they would get hooked if they would just give it a try, but the barrier to entry has to be very low to facilitate that IMO.

 

As time goes on and the market continues to change, raids will likely become less and less relevant unless more casuals get involved.

Edited December 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Kalfear]

Genre (long before WOW) started with no raids

Wouldnt shock me to see someone revert back to that design at some point, if for no other reason then to test the waters with out it

 

Even EQ launched with no real raid content (though it was always in its mind)

 

Personally I don't see Raids being removed outright but do see development time of Raids being minimized to reflect the small player base that regularly utilizes them.

 

For myself I raid 1 day a week. Ive done the whole progression raiding thing and just find it kinda boring after the first couple successful runs.

 

But I do think one of the problems Raids (and holocrons like the Makeb endurance one) face is how they designed now.

If you don't utilize a walk through you are never going to figure out the mechanics on many raids because they are designed specifically for you to utilize a walk through.

And Ive always felt if I need to use a walk through by someone else, Im robbing myself of the puzzle and strategic thinking to figure them out.

 

But most now are ste by step, follow the walk through, just react/dont think designs.

 

Course if you buy into LAs theory of everything in gaming being dumbed down for casuals (I don't because I don't think casuals less skilled then anyone else and there for dumbing down not required) then everything in gaming is on a downturn and strategy and tactics and puzzles and all those great staples of the MMORPG market are things of the past for the new fast/easy/no thinking required design template.

 

Raids and even PVP look to be taking a backseat for foreseeable future.

Not eliminated but no longer the focal point either.

PVE has become so watered down that its badly broken and the market will turn and revert back to a more "stop designing for 20 million, know your base and design for them specifically with LONG TERM (not short and fast) in mind". So see developers designing with long term goals in mind in the near future.

 

But then again that will all change with the next big step in technology for gaming

[Kaedusz]

The people you describe are not casuals. Casuals don't tend to go to secondary sites or watch videos on how to kill a boss. My wife and daughter played WoW for years without ever looking at forums or third party sites. A casual will eventually conclude "Bounty Hunter = Aim over everything" and will be totally fine never understanding secondary attributes in gear. Honestly, hardcore "communities" are often the problem.

 

If someone plays WoW(or any game for that matter) for years without ever having a look at any forum,sorry they are not only casual but a noob too.With all the negative definitions and implications you can think of.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Kaedusz