Rhyltran Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) Jedi teaching, yeah. But look at Senya. And all Zakuul knights. Jedi teachings are the philosophy of the Jedi, but Qui'Gon Jin doesn't fight slavery. And there is a lot of monarchies, in the Republic. Senya and the Zakuul knights aren't lightsided. They're grey. Qui Gon Jin was also Grey. Not light. Vengeance is right. You can't be light and be an evil dictator. It doesn't work. The sith are all about passion but there's other dark side philosophies that don't even mention passion. The sith feel passion is the strongest way of fueling the dark side. You're getting mixed up with Jedi/Sith being Dark/Light. There's other light and dark siders than Jedi and Sith who have their own teachings. Edited November 21, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I am voluntarily exaggerating, just to explain my point, But I think it's very exaggerated on your part, to say that the dark side isn't necessarily fuelled by emotion. Even if you could find some examples, it would be way too much in contradiction with every canon. Dark side = passion is one of the bases of Star Wars. And about "Grey" Jedi, it's just a name, they don't use the dark side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Qui Gon fighting slavery would have meant fighting the Hutt Cartel. There's only so much one Jedi and even the Jedi Order as a whole could do. Not to mention, look what happened to them, we saw them in big numbers yes, but galaxy wide, they were insignificant in numbers. If the Jedi Order as a whole decided it was time to fight the Hutt Cartel and it's slavery, I would have no doubt the Republic wouldn't step in and help and as we see, the slaves don't often seem to stand up and rebel against their Hutt enslavers. Taking on the slavery of a non Rep planet would also be looked down upon, and likely have some Senator saying they where trying to negotiate with them. While I would consider the Jedi good as a whole, and so would many in the SW Galaxy There's also fear there, even from the good people who aren't force users. These are people who can lift a speeder and throw it at you. Pick you up and choke you from across the room and they don't need to make an arm gesture to do it, so they could do it without being seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Zakuul Knights don't use the Lightside in way Jedi do. Senya even says the Jedi Code wouldn't work for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Zakuul Knights don't use the Lightside in way Jedi do. Senya even says the Jedi Code wouldn't work for her. My point exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 My point exactly. Therefore Zakuul Knights are not an example of the Lightside and a Jedi could not be a evil dictator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Therefore Zakuul Knights are not an example of the Lightside and a Jedi could not be a evil dictator. Why don't you think that the knights are not an example of light side ? I don't see them showing any sign of the dark side corruption. No red eyes, no more emotions than most of the Jedi in the game, no use of any dark side powers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 The Zakuul Knight that comes after you for the death of his partner has yellow eyes. Many of them also use darkside powers like Thundering Blast (which Sith Inquisitors also use), and the codex entry on them says they delve into using the dark side of the Force and don't see it as being dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 The Zakuul Knight that comes after you for the death of his partner has yellow eyes. Many of them also use darkside powers like Thundering Blast (which Sith Inquisitors also use), and the codex entry on them says they delve into using the dark side of the Force and don't see it as being dangerous. My bad then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I am voluntarily exaggerating, just to explain my point, But I think it's very exaggerated on your part, to say that the dark side isn't necessarily fuelled by emotion. Even if you could find some examples, it would be way too much in contradiction with every canon. Dark side = passion is one of the bases of Star Wars. And about "Grey" Jedi, it's just a name, they don't use the dark side. The sith fueling the dark side via passion is one of the basis of star wars. Not all dark siders are Sith. See the Dathomir witches. They don't talk about fueling their force powers via passion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) Probably because they were first written before the Kotor was. Or I would think that's part of the reason anyway. Edited November 22, 2015 by OldVengeance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) Probably because they were first written before the Kotor was. Or I would think that's part of the reason anyway. My point was contesting that the dark side is only passion. Passion is a gateway to the dark side. A gateway that the Sith feels is the best way of utilizing and harnessing the dark side but it doesn't mean that it's the only path to the dark side or that passion IS the dark side. As I was arguing with the person. Truthfully the dark side isn't all passion. Love doesn't = Dark Side. It can through fear, possessiveness, jealousy, etc but that's just it. The dark side is negativity. It's Anger, fear, jealousy, death, destruction, chaos, pain, suffering, and more. As you mentioned, someone can't be an evil dictator as an entirely light side force user but just as obvious one can't be a kind gentleman who loves puppies and protects the homeless by being a pure dark side user. As soon as one accepts this.. yes Star Wars is about good vs evil light vs dark. If I calmly choke the life from someone I'm not being light. Edited November 22, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 The sith fueling the dark side via passion is one of the basis of star wars. Not all dark siders are Sith. See the Dathomir witches. They don't talk about fueling their force powers via passion. Well them not explicitly talking about it isn't proof. But let's get this straight, I'm not really saying that Jedi can be dictators, just that light side doesn't necessarily mean actively fighting for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) Well them not explicitly talking about it isn't proof. But let's get this straight, I'm not really saying that Jedi can be dictators, just that light side doesn't necessarily mean actively fighting for good. Light side doesn't actively mean fighting for good but it does mean being a good person. Someone can be a pacifist and not step in to help someone while not being a mean vile person. A Dark Side user doesn't have to commit a murder every second but he's definitely not someone you want around you all the time either. Also the book of the sith detail what the witches of dathomir view the dark side as and the way they practice it. They don't use passion the way the sith do. The Jedi are interesting. While they only practice the light they also follow the will of the force. The force itself is about balance. Sometimes the will of the force.. is to do nothing. Truth is there needs to be some darkness out there in order for there to be balance. The Jedi don't hunt darkness for the most part nor do they aim to destroy dark side philosophies. Their beef is with the sith who actively seek to upset the balance. Edited November 22, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 If I calmly choke the life from someone I'm not being light. Well if you calmly kill with a light saber ? Windu wanted to execute Sidious on the spot. Luke choked Jaba's guards (probably didn't kill them because it wasn't necessary). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) Well if you calmly kill with a light saber ? Windu wanted to execute Sidious on the spot. Luke choked Jaba's guards (probably didn't kill them because it wasn't necessary). Windu wasn't a model jedi so using him as an example isn't a good one. Given that his technique, known as Vaapad, relied on channeling your opponent's darkness and reflecting it back on them. Even then killing when you absolutely have to isn't a dark side act. Not if your opponent left you with no choice. In this case Sidious wasn't leaving Windu any other choice. If you execute someone in order to keep power.. you're already committing a dark side act. If you kill because the person is a threat to your authority the same as above. There's a reason the Jedi don't lead but instead choose to guide. Being calm isn't being Light. What determines Light is the actions you take while calm. Everything Dooku did was under a calm demeanor. He was always calm and in control. Very rarely did he react out of anger or even malice. It took quite a bit of pushing. This doesn't change the fact that he was clearly a dark sider and a Sith. Edited November 22, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Light side doesn't actively mean fighting for good but it does mean being a good person. I think it's a consequence, not a prerequisite. Just like evil is the consequence of the dark side, not the prerequisite. About the witches and your sources, if you use that kind of sources, then look at the definition of the dark side. And from everything I know about the night sisters, the ones using the dark side, well er, they were crazy man haters ruling by fear. I guess you can find some EU counterexamples, but I don't think it's enough to go against everything establish by the movies and TCW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Windu wasn't a model jedi so using him as an example isn't a good one. Given that his technique, known as Vaapad, relied on channeling your opponent's darkness and reflecting it back on them. Even then killing when you absolutely have to isn't a dark side act. Not if your opponent left you with no choice. In this case Sidious wasn't leaving Windu any other choice. If you execute someone in order to keep power.. you're already committing a dark side act. If you kill because the person is a threat to your authority the same as above. There's a reason the Jedi don't lead but instead choose to guide. Being calm isn't being Light. What determines Light is the actions you take while calm. Everything Dooku did was under a calm demeanor. He was always calm and in control. Very rarely did he react out of anger or even malice. It took quite a bit of pushing. This doesn't change the fact that he was clearly a dark sider and a Sith. Looking Calm doesn't make you so... What's important is what do you use to fuel your power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I think it's a consequence, not a prerequisite. Just like evil is the consequence of the dark side, not the prerequisite. About the witches and your sources, if you use that kind of sources, then look at the definition of the dark side. And from everything I know about the night sisters, the ones using the dark side, well er, they were crazy man haters ruling by fear. I guess you can find some EU counterexamples, but I don't think it's enough to go against everything establish by the movies and TCW. Consequence or pre-requisite would be kind of the same thing. If being evil is a consequence of the dark side to follow the dark side means to be an evil person. So to be a dark sider one has to be evil. If you weren't evil before hand to be a dark sider would mean to become evil. Chick or the egg it doesn't matter so semantics aside.. my point is it's not all passion. Doing something out of love doesn't mean you are following the dark side. In fact, that's not why Jedi forbid love. The reason it's forbidden is because love could lead to the negative emotions that do fuel the dark side. Thus bringing back my point that the dark side = Negativity. Not all passions are bad. As mentioned the Jedi teach compassion. One can't be a good jedi without being a compassionate being. A Jedi without compassion would be cold and merciless. In many ways this is a good example of Dooku. Dooku wasn't like most Sith as he didn't have the explosive fury most of them displayed. Nor did he ever really fully come forward over what his goals really are. He was usually calm, cold, and calculating. Dooku's biggest defining trait is that he was everything a Jedi shouldn't be. He was a compassionless tactical mastermind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Zekiel Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) Well if you calmly kill with a light saber ? Windu wanted to execute Sidious on the spot. Luke choked Jaba's guards (probably didn't kill them because it wasn't necessary). A good person can do bad things. A bad person can do good things. On the original idea from the OP: The sith respect and often fear strength. People do try to kill the light side SW/SI, but presumably, the rest tolerate them because they are simply too strong to do anything about. Edited November 22, 2015 by E-Zekiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Consequence or pre-requisite would be kind of the same thing. If being evil is a consequence of the dark side to follow the dark side means to be an evil person. So to be a dark sider one has to be evil. If you weren't evil before hand to be a dark sider would mean to become evil. Chick or the egg it doesn't matter so semantics aside.. my point is it's not all passion. Doing something out of love doesn't mean you are following the dark side. In fact, that's not why Jedi forbid love. The reason it's forbidden is because love could lead to the negative emotions that do fuel the dark side. Thus bringing back my point that the dark side = Negativity. Not all passions are bad. As mentioned the Jedi teach compassion. One can't be a good jedi without being a compassionate being. A Jedi without compassion would be cold and merciless. In many ways this is a good example of Dooku. Dooku wasn't like most Sith as he didn't have the explosive fury most of them displayed. Nor did he ever really fully come forward over what his goals really are. He was usually calm, cold, and calculating. Dooku's biggest defining trait is that he was everything a Jedi shouldn't be. He was a compassionless tactical mastermind. Not all passion is bad no, but fueling your power with it is, that is the difference. When Obi-wan defeats Maul, it's obviously out of love for the Republic, the Jedi, and his master, but his capacity to do so comes from his calm, peace of mind, and clarity. Something perfectly demonstrated in Anakin vs Obi. One is fueled by emotion, while the other isn't, even though he is, full of passion and conflicting emotions at the moment. Anyway, that's my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Zekiel Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Not all passion is bad no, but fueling your power with it is, that is the difference. When Obi-wan defeats Maul, it's obviously out of love for the Republic, the Jedi, and his master, but his capacity to do so comes from his calm, peace of mind, and clarity. Something perfectly demonstrated in Anakin vs Obi. One is fueled by emotion, while the other isn't, even though he is, full of passion and conflicting emotions at the moment. Anyway, that's my opinion. The difference between HAVING passion and love, and letting it control you. I love debating Jedi politics for this reason, because myself and my characters argue that you must have emotion and passion, but to be truly "light side", you balance them out with peace and serenity. They're there, but they shouldn't control you - but neither should you deny their existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deshiel Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 Valkorion told my Light sith warrior that we are not a sith anymore. What are we then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Zekiel Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Just a Force wielder. Not being a jedi does not make you sith. Not being sith does not make you jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimmerstil Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 The sith respect and often fear strength. People do try to kill the light side SW/SI, but presumably, the rest tolerate them because they are simply too strong to do anything about. Yeah, they do constantly try to kill the Inquisitor, but never because of the Inquisitor's alignment. A good person can do bad things. A bad person can do good things.But it changes them, changes how they look at and feel about themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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