Need better defensive CDs

[AxeDragoneth]

Guys

 

Guys

 

What if

 

This is bait

 

Starting to think it is.

I've offered plenty of advice, as have others, and he's just saying the same thing over again.

 

I tried to be nice, but dude's gotta L2P or be pat on the back for trolling us good.

[TACeMossie]

Starting to think it is.

I've offered plenty of advice, as have others, and he's just saying the same thing over again.

 

I tried to be nice, but dude's gotta L2P or be pat on the back for trolling us good.

 

Aww come on, I got through to him... eventually...

 

...

 

I think

[Vember]

Aww come on, I got through to him... eventually...

 

...

 

I think

 

Tthey're talking about the OP, not our discussion, genius.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Vember

[xxSHOONYxx]

Tthey're talking about the OP, not our discussion, genius.

 

Actually no, I was talking about your discussion

[Vember]

Actually no, I was talking about your discussion

 

Well, at least the guy he quoted wasn't As for you, I can't help if you're sheep. Based on how the devs completely killed tank spec shadows/assassins in pvp when they unleashed 2.0 upon us, I get leery when they start throwing changes like this around.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Vember

[g_land]

No, what it does is support my claim that a spec relying on a rooted channel is not a mobile spec. Annihilation and Vengeance don't rely on Ravage, nothing in their skill tree is really tied to it in the way that 3.0 Plasmatechs will be relying on Pulse Cannon.

 

The entire vengeance tree is built around resetting ravage with a few fillers... you clearly know what you are talking about...

[bigsexee]

The sad part is that this could be a easy fix by changing kolto overload (no clue what vangaurds one is called) right now its so usless....pop it early your HP hits 35% and it stops and is wasted....pop it late and they burn you with it up and it does not mater.

This could be an EASY FIX if they changed it to heals you over time for 35% NO MATER WHAT YOUR HP!

and would help in pvp and pve

[sloasdaylight]

sentinel: guarded by the force

 

Wanna know how to kill a sentinel? Focus them with 4 dps, make them pop this, apply dots, change targets. Losing half your remaining hp when this ends means it's genuine last ditch effort to try to stay alive for a few more seconds so your healer can key turn his *** around to you and click a few heals.

[egriz]

Starting to think it is.

I've offered plenty of advice, as have others, and he's just saying the same thing over again.

 

I tried to be nice, but dude's gotta L2P or be pat on the back for trolling us good.

 

All your posts are regarding to the OP, so I think you are saying this about me.

I am not trolling, in fact, I truly bealieve that either you haven't read everything about the OP, or YOU are the one trolling.

 

Just answer me 1 question! If you are right, I'll admit I'm a noob who needs to learn to play.

Let's say your adrenaline rush just expired, you are at the max possible hp (35%) and use your medpac too, getting to 70%. You have your adrenal and reactive shield and still 32 secs till next adrenaline rush. (basically most ideal situation)

 

Your kolto will refresh roughly every 40s of constant pressure, if I remember the math right.

 

You are under that constant pressure, you have 32 secs and 23100 hp left to go. How do YOU survive?

Edited November 18, 2014 by egriz

[egriz]

Some numbers on how fast one can die while focused.

Assumptions:

1. 33k hp (~max obtainable with optimized gear), 44550 hp with medpac
   
2. 30,92% dmg reduction from armor + bolster
   
3. 33 times 426 heal ticks from adrenaline rush (trauma calculated)
   
4. opponents do 2500 dps on the vanguard with armor, but no DCD (much lower than real good dps, not even mentioning the burst at the beginning)
   
5. no healer or tank in either teams, since this is the topic of the thread
   

 

phrases:

att: attacker

dps: one opponent's dps on the vanguard

hps: adrenaline rush's healing per sec

hpps: the vanguard's hp change per sec

sec: the time it takes for the opponents to kill the vanguard from popping the DCD

(sec): the time it takes for the opponents to kill the vanguard from popping the DCD + assuming the vanguard didn't use the medpac

*when using Adrenaline rush, time after the skill activation

**the other skills are activated when taking the first hit

sec, (sec): death before the DCD wears off

 

No DCD: with medpac

1 att: -2500 hpps -> 17,82 sec (13,2 sec)

2 att: -5000 hpps -> 8,91 sec (6,6 sec)

3 att: -7500 hpps -> 5,94 sec (4,4 sec)

4 att: -10000 hpps -> 4,455 sec (3,3 sec)

 

Adrenal: with medpac

45,92% dmg reduction -> 1947 dps

max duration: 15 sec

1 att: -1947 hpps -> 21,138 sec

2 att: -3894 hpps -> 11,44 sec

3 att: -5841 hpps -> 7,627 sec (5,65 sec)

4 att: -7788 hpps -> 5,72 sec (4,24 sec)

 

Reactive shield: with medpac

55,92% dmg reduction -> 1587 dps

max duration: 15 sec

1 att: -1587 hpps -> 23,298 sec

2 att: -3174 hpps -> 14 sec

3 att: -4761 hpps -> 9,357 sec

4 att: -6348 hpps -> 7 sec (5,19 sec)

 

Adrenaline rush: from 35% hp = 11550 hp

60,92% dmg reduction -> 1407 dps

1760 hps

max duration: 8 sec

1 att: +353 hpps -> at 11550 hp at the end

2 att: -1054 hpps -> at 3118 hp at the end

3 att: -2461 hpps -> 4,7 sec, duration from full hp: 7,56 sec

4 att: -3868 hpps -> 3 sec, duration from full hp: 5,145 sec

 

Reactive shield + adrenal: with medpac

70,92% dmg reduction -> 1047 dps

max duration: 15 sec

1 att: -1047 hpps -> 26,538 sec

2 att: -2094 hpps -> 20,256 sec

3 att: -3141 hpps -> 14,18 sec

4 att: -4188 hpps -> 10,64 sec

 

Adrenaline rush + adrenal: from 35% hp = 11550 hp

75,92% dmg reduction -> 867 dps

1760 hps

max duration: 8 sec

3 att: -841 hpps -> at 4822 hp at the end

4 att: -1708 hpps -> 6,76 sec

 

Adrenaline rush + Reactive shield: from 35% hp = 11550 hp

85,92% dmg reduction -> 507 dps

1760 hps

max duration: 8 sec

3 att: +239 hpps -> at 11550 hp at the end

4 att: -268 hpps -> at 9406 hp at the end

 

Adrenaline rush + Reactive shield + adrenal:

100,92% dmg reduction for the 8 sec duration

-> at 11550 hp at the end

 

Change of assumptions:

1. opponents do the same 2500 dps, but with elemental, internal attacks / armor reduction (much closer to reality, still lower dps, but since not everyone has damage reduction, elemental/internal attacks, this approximation will be good)
   
2. every other assumption stays the same
   

 

No DCD: with medpac

1 att: -2500 hpps -> 17,82 sec (13,2 sec)

2 att: -5000 hpps -> 8,91 sec (6,6 sec)

3 att: -7500 hpps -> 5,94 sec (4,4 sec)

4 att: -10000 hpps -> 4,455 sec (3,3 sec)

 

Adrenal: with medpac

15% dmg reduction -> 2125 dps

max duration: 15 sec

1 att: -2125 hpps -> 20,07 sec

2 att: -4250 hpps -> 10,48 sec

3 att: -6375 hpps -> 6,99 sec (5,176 sec)

4 att: -8500 hpps -> 5,24 sec (3,88 sec)

 

Reactive shield: with medpac

25% dmg reduction -> 1875 dps

max duration: 15 sec

1 att: -1875 hpps -> 21,57 sec

2 att: -3750 hpps -> 11,88 sec

3 att: -5625 hpps -> 7,92 sec (5,86 sec)

4 att: -7500 hpps -> 5,94 sec (4,4 sec)

 

Adrenaline rush: from 35% hp = 11550 hp

30% dmg reduction -> 1750 dps

1760 hps

max duration: 8 sec

1 att: +10 hpps -> at 11550 hp at the end

2 att: -1740 hpps -> 6,64 sec, duration from full hp: 10,93 sec

3 att: -2461 hpps -> 3,3 sec, duration from full hp: 6,16 sec

4 att: -3868 hpps -> 2,2 sec, duration from full hp: 4,345 sec

 

Reactive shield + adrenal: with medpac

40% dmg reduction -> 1500 dps

max duration: 15 sec

1 att: -1500 hpps -> 23,82 sec

2 att: -3000 hpps -> 14,85sec

3 att: -4500 hpps -> 9,9 sec

4 att: -6000 hpps -> 7,425 sec

 

Adrenaline rush + adrenal: from 35% hp = 11550 hp

45% dmg reduction -> 1375 dps

1760 hps

max duration: 8 sec

3 att: -2365 hpps -> 4,88 sec

4 att: -3740 hpps -> 3,09 sec

 

Adrenaline rush + Reactive shield: from 35% hp = 11550 hp

55% dmg reduction -> 1125 dps

1760 hps

max duration: 8 sec

3 att: -1615 hpps -> 7,15 sec

4 att: -2740 hpps -> 4,22 sec

 

Adrenaline rush + Reactive shield + adrenal: from 35% hp = 11550 hp

70% dmg reduction -> 750 dps

1760 hps

max duration: 8 sec

3 att: -490 hpps -> at 7630 hp at the end

4 att: -1240 hpps -> at 1630 hp at the end

 

Errors:

1. Cannot calculate the opponents getting stunned, kiting a bit, ... BUT it isn't rare for a class to start with 8-9k damages, thus having a much higher burst dps. Since everyone has the burst at the start, that 2500 dps might still be a bit low. A combat senti for example can kill a player with 5k+ dps if the RNG is good enough.
   
2. Since nobody can pop the DCDs at the exact time of the first hit getting in (not to mention the opponents starting with stuns..), all the DCD calculation death times are actually higher here than in reality (assuming nothing else changes).
   

 

Results:

You only have to look at the 3 and 4 attacker results, since the thread was suposed to be ONLY about 4dps vs 4dps ranked arenas.

It can clearly be seen that a vanguard CAN NOT rotate the DCDs in this situation if he is focused or else he dies faster than Admiral Ackbar could say

Edited November 19, 2014 by egriz

[KainrycKarr]

You aren't supposed to survive being focused by four DPS and no heals. If you could, it would be OP.

[egriz]

You aren't supposed to survive being focused by four DPS and no heals. If you could, it would be OP.

 

Well that was the reason for making the thread.. almost every class has something that makes them survive for much longer than a vanguard when focused.

 

Did the calculations for those that said I should rotate the DCDs, or that some can reset after 40 secs, ...etc. in these situations. This proves that unless you use everything, you die almost in a gcd.

Edited November 24, 2014 by egriz

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

Well that was the reason for making the thread.. almost every class has something that makes them survive for much longer than a vanguard when focused.

 

Did the calculations for those that said I should rotate the DCDs, or that some can reset after 40 secs, ...etc. in these situations. This proves that unless you use everything, you die almost in a gcd.

 

So, u have burst, sustained, a "god mode", and want better cd ? ok, but lets say to give up some burst and dot damage ok ?

[Ottoattack]

So, u have burst, sustained, a "god mode", and want better cd ? ok, but lets say to give up some burst and dot damage ok ?

 

I will talk from live prescriptive, PT has only one DCD with less than 2 min CD, which is 25% defense chance on 45 sec CD. Simply, outside of the major DCDs (Shield and KO) you are the embodiment of free kill. All other melee classes have a skill or two that allow you to avoid/mitigate incoming damage for 3-4 secs except PT. In terms of damage, I do not think it is an overstatement if i say pyro has the best single target damage options considering burst, uptime and control. The problem is BW keeps uping the damage instead of uping survivability. The whole 2.8 dps buff was not needed at all from PvP prescriptive.

 

Now in 3.0 the devs have embraced AP PT as an even brustier version of its former 2.9 pyro PT with, but with weaker survivability. The true glass cannon. This will polarize the spec making it insanely OP in some situations, and also insanely under powered.

 

All BW needed to do for pyro (futurely know as AP) was to streamline the damage and add on 60 sec DCDs similar to saber reflect/resaliance in concept.

 

P.S. wth is the new pyro supposed to be?! Dot? Sustained? AOE? On paper it sucks on all fronts (at least PvP wise).

[texoc]

I will talk from live prescriptive, PT has only one DCD with less than 2 min CD, which is 25% defense chance on 45 sec CD. Simply, outside of the major DCDs (Shield and KO) you are the embodiment of free kill. All other melee classes have a skill or two that allow you to avoid/mitigate incoming damage for 3-4 secs except PT. In terms of damage, I do not think it is an overstatement if i say pyro has the best single target damage options considering burst, uptime and control. The problem is BW keeps uping the damage instead of uping survivability. The whole 2.8 dps buff was not needed at all from PvP prescriptive.

 

Now in 3.0 the devs have embraced AP PT as an even brustier version of its former 2.9 pyro PT with, but with weaker survivability. The true glass cannon. This will polarize the spec making it insanely OP in some situations, and also insanely under powered.

 

All BW needed to do for pyro (futurely know as AP) was to streamline the damage and add on 60 sec DCDs similar to saber reflect/resaliance in concept.

 

P.S. wth is the new pyro supposed to be?! Dot? Sustained? AOE? On paper it sucks on all fronts (at least PvP wise).

 

You should justcalm down in this thread. The new AP/Pyro has enough defensives for a 15-30m meele/range class.

Play Dps Operative in ranked and come back talking about having the worst cooldowns of all meele.

How is AP more of a glasscannon in 3.0 than on life, are you serious??

 

Sonic Defense, Stabilized Armor, Energy Rebounder havent been stripped out of the tree like they did for other classes. You are free to take additional 5m range + perma 50% slow ontop of 10sec 80% hydraulic overrides and a second stunbreaker. You can kite anyone while dealing your burst from 15-30m.

Edited November 29, 2014 by texoc

[Ottoattack]

You should justcalm down in this thread. The new AP/Pyro has enough defensives for a 15-30m meele/range class.

Play Dps Operative in ranked and come back talking about having the worst cooldowns of all meele.

How is AP more of a glasscannon in 3.0 than on life, are you serious??

 

Sonic Defense, Stabilized Armor, Energy Rebounder havent been stripped out of the tree like they did for other classes. You are free to take additional 5m range + perma 50% slow ontop of 10sec 80% hydraulic overrides and a second stunbreaker. You can kite anyone while dealing your burst from 15-30m.

 

Well, no one compares any class with ops dps. Ops dps did, is and it seems will always continue to suck

 

I did not say neither do I expect AP PT will not be good in PvP. It is the exact opposite, the spec seems OP to the maxed. How things will play out in 3.0 is all speculation and theory crafting. But on live, PT weakness is they rely too much on good old armor waiting for DCDs, and it seemed fitting to add a DCD that serves exactly that function, instead we go a major mumbo jumbo on the dps specs that we can only speculate how will work it.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Ottoattack

[JeffrenBrek]

Just by reading this thread you can tell who is a FOTM-Pyro and who actually knows how to play the class. It's quite amusing really.

 

Vanguard/PT definitely does not need more defensive CDs.

[xxSHOONYxx]

Just by reading this thread you can tell who is a FOTM-Pyro and who actually knows how to play the class. It's quite amusing really.

 

Vanguard/PT definitely does not need more defensive CDs.

 

I think the main concern was the lack of a smaller CD that you can use more often. PT's have two good CD's but one of them is only good sub-35% so from 100%-36% you only have energy shield and degauss (lol) and energy shield is on a 2 minute cooldown I believe.

 

Now with 3.0 there will be no need for more DCD's. We'll have shield cannon, fuel additives, and automated suit (Well, two of them)