Dark Council Order Of Power

[Darth_Wicked]

Yet he couldn't even kill a force blind grunt who hadn't even cleared chapter 1 yet despite every other Dark Council member (besides his chump daughter) being fought near the end of chapter 3 at the earliest.. Nothing else in the game ever backs up what is said by his subordinates, they just didn't know what they were talking about.

 

Truth be told, the Imperial Agent doesn't get to defeat Darth Jadus per se, but rather weakens him, in addition to trap him inside a force shield.

 

Plus, out of a galaxy of trillions of sentient beings, you have seven other individuals capable of facing Dark and Jedi Council members, head-on, in a regular basis.

 

Doesn't seem that incongruent to me.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Darkelefantos]

Yet he couldn't even kill a force blind grunt who hadn't even cleared chapter 1 yet despite every other Dark Council member (besides his chump daughter) being fought near the end of chapter 3 at the earliest.. Nothing else in the game ever backs up what is said by his subordinates, they just didn't know what they were talking about.

He's the only fightable one who doesn't die in any outcome, he isn't defeated but trapped and apprehended by the Dark Council, and claims that a ray shield (!) could not hold him for long. Also, chapter 1 completion for Agents is so irrelevant for power. As if your shooting and grenade throwing would increase so significantly as game mechanics imply.

[dcaleb]

Truth be told, the Imperial Agent doesn't get to defeat Darth Jadus per se, but rather weakens him, in addition to trap him inside a force shield.

 

Plus, out of a galaxy of trillions of sentient beings, you have seven other individuals capable of facing Dark and Jedi Council members, head-on, in a regular basis.

 

Doesn't seem that incongruent to me.

 

This is what another Dark Council member does to a PC that has just barely finished Act 1.

 

 

And that is a force sensitive PC who explicitly has defenses against that kind of thing. Jadus just does not in any way measure up to the hype.

[Branosaros]

Well, unless you sided with him, Jadus has either been killed or lost his entire power base, so while he may be powerful, he has little to no influence.

I think he leaves if you side with him later anyway.

 

 

 

The Imperial Agent is the finest agent to come out of Imperial Intelligence. He brought down a Dark Lord, he ruined an SIS mission after breaking out of Castellan restraints, and he dismantled a galactic conspracy. He's no grunt, and he's trained to deal with force-users. He didn't DEFEAT Jadus so much as out-maneuver him like a good little spy. I mean, you Blackmail him, trap him, or just hold him off long enough so he can't do anything if you choose to face him. There's a reason why Darth Marr is slightly cautious of the Agent, as there is a reason he has Castellan restraints put in place. The Sith view him as a threat to their power, and if an Agent can step out of line, more will follow.

 

Besides, he was the most powerful Sith Lord at the time. Power can increase.

 

I say He as my agent is Male.

 

[Darth_Wicked]

This is what another Dark Council member does to a PC that has just barely finished Act 1.

 

 

And that is a force sensitive PC who explicitly has defenses against that kind of thing. Jadus just does not in any way measure up to the hype.

 

I don't see the problem quite honestly.

 

The Imperial Agent, supposedly Force-blind, had to resort to less conventional tactics to subdue Darth Jadus, something that both the storytelling and the writing cater to in that moment -- provided you go for that choice.

 

Thanaton on the other hand, being older and more experienced in the secrets of the Force, easily subdued an impudent child who grasped for power far earlier than it should; once more, the storytelling and writing brings this up.

 

Well, unless you sided with him, Jadus has either been killed or lost his entire power base, so while he may be powerful, he has little to no influence.

 

Untrue, at least as far as the "killed" part is concerned. He confirms that possibility if the Imperial Agent taunts him but that's pretty much it.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[dcaleb]

You don't see the problem with someone who is supposedly 'second only to the Emperor' not being able to kill someone with no defense against force attacks just by looking at them funny?

 

I mean, in general it is always weird when a confrontation between a sith and someone who is force blind doesn't immediately end with them crushing them with their mind (personal force shield defends against telekinesis, maybe? But that only helps the Trooper/Bounty Hunter because the Smuggler/Agent don't cart around such heavy duty gear). But Jadus isn't even an end boss so it is doubly incredulous that you can even serve as a distraction while the ray shields warm up instead of just instantly having your head twisted 180 degrees by magic when he decides he wants you dead because your character hasn't even reached the fullness of their ******ery.

 

Edit: And his entire shtick is being some emotionless robot man who doesn't mess around, so you can't even say he might have just been toying with you or something.

Edited January 16, 2015 by dcaleb

[Darth_Wicked]

You don't see the problem with someone who is supposedly 'second only to the Emperor' not being able to kill someone with no defense against force attacks just by looking at them funny?

 

It depends on how you rationalize it really.

 

During the Jedi Knight story, both Tol-Braga and the Jedi Knight claim the Emperor is "weakened", prior to the last confrontation with the "Emperor" in Dromund Kaas. I always came to assume this played a role in his defeat at the time.

 

During your conversation with Darh Jadus, he gets to mention the shvash gas destroyed PART of his flagship, the Dominator, while his combined power held the rest of the ship intact.

 

Maybe that effort somehow wore him down?

 

In Tatooine, Bela Kiwiiks entered a deep trance to resist the effects of the Shock Drum and over a year later, in Corellia, she claimed she had never truly recovered.

 

Maybe, just maybe, at that particular time, Jadus hadn't recovered from the effort yet? As I said, depends on one's rationalization.

 

I mean, in general it is always weird when a confrontation between a sith and someone who is force blind doesn't immediately end with them crushing them with their mind (personal force shield defends against telekinesis, maybe? But that only helps the Trooper/Bounty Hunter because the Smuggler/Agent don't cart around such heavy duty gear). But Jadus isn't even an end boss so it is doubly incredulous that you can even serve as a distraction while the ray shields warm up instead of just instantly having your head twisted 180 degrees by magic when he decides he wants you dead.

 

As I said, I go for the rationalization above, plus the writing and storytelling I brought up earlier, the last two seamlessly catering to that specific situation.

 

If the Imperial Agent had actually killed Darth Jadus, that would be a bit too outlandish, especially in the face of what Watchter Two had said minutes prior.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[dcaleb]

Nope, just can't buy it. Normally I can sort of ignore the fact that force blind people are capable of being a threat to force users, but I just can't accept that the second most powerful sith in the galaxy couldn't just kill you with a thought even if distracted. As far as I am concerned he just lied to his former minions about how powerful he was to help keep them in line.

[Jrr_hypernova]

Nope, just can't buy it. Normally I can sort of ignore the fact that force blind people are capable of being a threat to force users, but I just can't accept that the second most powerful sith in the galaxy couldn't just kill you with a thought even if distracted. As far as I am concerned he just lied to his former minions about how powerful he was to help keep them in line.

 

Because its not like the most powerful Sith ever cannon wise was shot to death by Han Solo while distracted. Oh wait you mean Han did shoot sidious with a blaster? Huh I guess force users aren't immortal gods who can never be caught off guard and killed by a muggle.

[Kyrrant]

The problem is that the fight with Jadus doesn't sell his power. He's built up like a huge, towering menace, but the actual fight against him isn't any different really than against any other Elite tier Sorcerer type enemy.

 

At most, his power's shown just by him being really hard to kill, so you need to smack a terminal after whittling down his hitpoints, but after all the buildup, there's really not much payoff.

 

Could the agent defeat a Dark Council member? Sure! No one's saying that Sith are immune to blasters, or that mundane fighters can't beat them, but the Force tips the odds so heavily in favor of the Sith, the Agent would need to do something fancy to get around it.

 

For example: If the Agent, while Jadus' back was turned, put a severe poison on a blade or a dart, which wouldn't kill him, but would be enough to bring him down to the Agent's level. Or if he messed around with the computer consoles and hooked it up so that he had a ray shield on himself, one that would need to be maintained throughout the battle.

 

I deem it a failure of the developer at that point to really make the fight feel legitimate, and is the one weak point of an otherwise fantastic finale to the best act story in the game.

[Frenesi]

You miss the point. There never was a face-to-face fight between agent and Jadus - becouse agent will end up dead instanly. Instead he LoS Jadus, hides from him, distracts him while setting up the trap. Don't let game mechanics confuse you.

 

Also, for a sniper, killing unaware Dark Council member is just a question of 1 shot

Edited January 17, 2015 by Frenesi

[dcaleb]

Because its not like the most powerful Sith ever cannon wise was shot to death by Han Solo while distracted. Oh wait you mean Han did shoot sidious with a blaster? Huh I guess force users aren't immortal gods who can never be caught off guard and killed by a muggle.

 

Was that in those stupid Emperor Reborn comics? Because the only time I remember Han fighting a sith was when he tried to shoot Vader and Vader basically just said 'lol no' and blocked the shots with his hand before taking the blaster with his mind and making it clear he could have just as easily snapped his neck but needs him alive.

 

 

Edit: Hell, Jadus pretty much does exactly that to Kaliyo if you bring her with you. But then the fight starts and he suddenly forgets he can strangle people with his mind and kinda just lets you lead him around by the nose until you drop a shield around him.

Edited January 17, 2015 by dcaleb

[Leaveshill]

The problem is that the fight with Jadus doesn't sell his power. He's built up like a huge, towering menace, but the actual fight against him isn't any different really than against any other Elite tier Sorcerer type enemy.

 

At most, his power's shown just by him being really hard to kill, so you need to smack a terminal after whittling down his hitpoints, but after all the buildup, there's really not much payoff.

 

Could the agent defeat a Dark Council member? Sure! No one's saying that Sith are immune to blasters, or that mundane fighters can't beat them, but the Force tips the odds so heavily in favor of the Sith, the Agent would need to do something fancy to get around it.

 

For example: If the Agent, while Jadus' back was turned, put a severe poison on a blade or a dart, which wouldn't kill him, but would be enough to bring him down to the Agent's level. Or if he messed around with the computer consoles and hooked it up so that he had a ray shield on himself, one that would need to be maintained throughout the battle.

 

I deem it a failure of the developer at that point to really make the fight feel legitimate, and is the one weak point of an otherwise fantastic finale to the best act story in the game.

 

It's however extremely unlikely that the Agent could do so. The Agent's main weapon is deception. A member of the Dark Council won't be taken by suprise, he'll feel it. The Agent cannot defeat a master of the Force in combat. He's not a soldier, he's a master of deception and assassination. How can you assassinate a target that knows your intentions? You cannot.

The best Jedi or Sith cannot be taken by non-force users. Of course, a perfectly equipped striketeam with the best "Force-user slayers", that's a different story.

However, the Agent isn't trained for fighting Force users and he'd obviously have no chance to defeat Jadus. That's why your beloved Watcher 2 says "You cannot defeat him!" etc, because that's how it is.

 

However, the greatest Force users will never lose duels with the greatest non-force users. It's simply because the greatest users of the Force are on a different level. Hence why great Jedi can kill ten clones, even though one clone has the best genetics of it's era and is perfectly trained.

The agent would never get by vs Jadus without the lucky fact that you could trap Jadus. Had that not been possible, then it'd not be possible at all.

 

Jadus > any non-force users in the history of Star Wars. Simple as that.

 

Keep in mind that Jadus could just shock the Agent to death, or throw him around the room. Not like it'd be a fight at all. Agent - dead in a few seconds.

[Rhyltran]

Because its not like the most powerful Sith ever cannon wise was shot to death by Han Solo while distracted. Oh wait you mean Han did shoot sidious with a blaster? Huh I guess force users aren't immortal gods who can never be caught off guard and killed by a muggle.

 

He didn't catch him off guard though. Sidious didn't care because he had already decided to use essence transfer. His body meant nothing when it occurred.

[Kyrrant]

You miss the point. There never was a face-to-face fight between agent and Jadus - becouse agent will end up dead instanly. Instead he LoS Jadus, hides from him, distracts him while setting up the trap. Don't let game mechanics confuse you.

 

Also, for a sniper, killing unaware Dark Council member is just a question of 1 shot

 

Well, a strat like that might work, and probably was what happened in truth (...although a Force Storm type attack from a very powerful Force user would probably overwhelm it...)...

 

...but that's not really the point. I can use my imagination to fill in the blanks, use logic to come up with explanations for holes... but a good game should use the gameplay to inform the story, to set the mood and the stakes and keep you as immersed in your character's actions as possible.

 

The fight with Jadus failed to do that. There were ways around it that simply were not considered, and the fight did suffer as a result. Whatever explanation we cobble together doesn't excuse that the original writers failed to do it themselves.

[Rhyltran]

You miss the point. There never was a face-to-face fight between agent and Jadus - becouse agent will end up dead instanly. Instead he LoS Jadus, hides from him, distracts him while setting up the trap. Don't let game mechanics confuse you.

 

Also, for a sniper, killing unaware Dark Council member is just a question of 1 shot

 

One shot that will be predicted by the force as the dark council member senses danger and receives a sudden imminent prediction of their own demise. This is exactly what would happen.

[dcaleb]

One shot that will be predicted by the force as the dark council member senses danger and receives a sudden imminent prediction of their own demise. This is exactly what would happen.

 

In fairness, danger sense is pretty fickle when the force user isn't actively on their guard. But the agent didn't ambush Jadus so the point is moot.

[Rhyltran]

In fairness, danger sense is pretty fickle when the force user isn't actively on their guard. But the agent didn't ambush Jadus so the point is moot.

 

To be fair that's my point. A dark council member would always be on guard. That's how they ended up on the dark council but yes moot point as you stated.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Rhyltran

[fovzwk]

Well, a strat like that might work, and probably was what happened in truth (...although a Force Storm type attack from a very powerful Force user would probably overwhelm it...)...

 

...but that's not really the point. I can use my imagination to fill in the blanks, use logic to come up with explanations for holes... b]ut a good game should use the gameplay to inform the story, to set the mood and the stakes and keep you as immersed in your character's actions as possible.

 

The fight with Jadus failed to do that. There were ways around it that simply were not considered, and the fight did suffer as a result. Whatever explanation we cobble together doesn't excuse that the original writers failed to do it themselves.

Is there actually any game out there that does that? So far in every single videogame I have ever played the combat is straight-up bullsh*t and can not truly represent what is going on story wise because then the story would be downright stupid.

Some examples:

 

Skyrim: Mage shoots fire right in the face of your character, who doesn't immediately get third degree burns from this that put him out of commisision and everyone else freezes while the Dragonborn decides to look thorugh his backpack and drink a potion.

 

Fallout 3/New Vegas: Get Shot in the head. Its fine I can totally go on indefinitely as long as I don't get hit again.

 

Dragon Age: Character gets gnawed on by a huge-a*s dragon. He spits him/her out again and s/he is totally able to stand up and continue to fight.

 

Vampires the Masquerade bloodlines: Superhuman Vampire gets hit with a baseballbat in the stomach-> dies and turns to ashes. Or even better. Normal human thug needs about 30 hits with a pistol before he goes down because you haven't invested any point into ranged weapons.

 

Or the classic example of almost every game ever: Single Person (often entirely human) mows down dozens of enemies at once and survives it without any injuries that would at least lead to being weakened. Most glaring example until today for me was probably Diabolo III. Main character + one companion attack huge demon army apparently alone and win.

Edited January 18, 2015 by fovzwk

[Kyrrant]

Is there actually any game out there that does that? So far in every single videogame I have ever played the combat is straight-up bullsh*t and can not truly represent what is going on story wise because then the story would be downright stupid.

 

You're thinking too literally about it.

 

Don't get me wrong, all those are legit examples of what can be known as "Gameplay and Story Segregation", where the story elements don't always match up with the gameplay ("Damn it, Cloud, just use a Phoenix Down on her!"), because the story's trying to tell an interesting tale with high stakes, and the gameplay's trying to give the player a challenging, engaging fighting experience.

 

What I was referring to, however, was a level below that, how what the player experiences during the combat can affect how they perceive the story.

 

Just to pick one example from Mass Effect 3: At the end of the tutorial level on Earth, you're put into a hold the line scenario, where you're waiting for evac to get there and need to shoot baddies until then, and the fight goes on and on, and the enemies don't stop coming, until when, at the last moment as you run out of ammo on your weapon, it flies in, lays down cover fire, and gets you out of there.

 

This scenario's nothing new, of course, but it works there because of the trigger for evac: It waits for you to run out of ammo, so that the fight would take a while, at low levels the player's going to be most reliant on their weapons, and they deliberately make ammo scarce.

 

Because you're getting overwhelmed, and soon to become defenseless (and a smart player on an appropriate difficulty setting is going to know that), the player gets a stronger understanding of this threat, that they will overwhelm you in a straight up fight, you'll need to find another way.

 

Another example, from Diablo III, since you mentioned it: The boss fight against Belial starts out like most other minor boss fights: He shows up bigger than most mobs, he throws around some spells, summons minions to help him, nothing you haven't seen before...

 

...and then when you have him on the ropes, he throws away all pretense, grows freaking MASSIVE and starts the REAL boss fight, throwing out AOE that will wipe you out if you don't step carefully and basically being the first real set-piece battle of Diablo III.

 

The way the fight's laid out is basically a trap by the devs. They lull the player into a false sense of security, then rip the rug out from under them, and make it clear that Belial and the other major evils are nothing like what you've fought before.

 

Its the sort of thing Darth Jadus needed, an aspect to his fight that showed how powerful he really was, and thus how ingenious/clever/creative the Agent is for being able to overcome it.

[fovzwk]

You're thinking too literally about it.

 

Don't get me wrong, all those are legit examples of what can be known as "Gameplay and Story Segregation", where the story elements don't always match up with the gameplay ("Damn it, Cloud, just use a Phoenix Down on her!"), because the story's trying to tell an interesting tale with high stakes, and the gameplay's trying to give the player a challenging, engaging fighting experience.

 

What I was referring to, however, was a level below that, how what the player experiences during the combat can affect how they perceive the story.

 

Just to pick one example from Mass Effect 3: At the end of the tutorial level on Earth, you're put into a hold the line scenario, where you're waiting for evac to get there and need to shoot baddies until then, and the fight goes on and on, and the enemies don't stop coming, until when, at the last moment as you run out of ammo on your weapon, it flies in, lays down cover fire, and gets you out of there.

 

This scenario's nothing new, of course, but it works there because of the trigger for evac: It waits for you to run out of ammo, so that the fight would take a while, at low levels the player's going to be most reliant on their weapons, and they deliberately make ammo scarce.

 

Because you're getting overwhelmed, and soon to become defenseless (and a smart player on an appropriate difficulty setting is going to know that), the player gets a stronger understanding of this threat, that they will overwhelm you in a straight up fight, you'll need to find another way.

 

Another example, from Diablo III, since you mentioned it: The boss fight against Belial starts out like most other minor boss fights: He shows up bigger than most mobs, he throws around some spells, summons minions to help him, nothing you haven't seen before...

 

...and then when you have him on the ropes, he throws away all pretense, grows freaking MASSIVE and starts the REAL boss fight, throwing out AOE that will wipe you out if you don't step carefully and basically being the first real set-piece battle of Diablo III.

 

The way the fight's laid out is basically a trap by the devs. They lull the player into a false sense of security, then rip the rug out from under them, and make it clear that Belial and the other major evils are nothing like what you've fought before.

 

Its the sort of thing Darth Jadus needed, an aspect to his fight that showed how powerful he really was, and thus how ingenious/clever/creative the Agent is for being able to overcome it.

 

Ah, ok. I see what you mean now.

While I personally do not completely agree with what you are saying (for example I just find it even more glaring and ridicioulus from a story-level that a huge Belial can't kill a single chick with an crosbow) I can understand your standpoint. It does make sense. Thanks for clarification.

[Jandi]

It's the dilemma with games. How could you possibly make a game in the SW universe and have non-force users as playable? It doesn't matter how elite you are, that only matters in the movies, if someone can literally disintegrate you with a flick of their wrist while at the same time have the ability to move and react twice as fast as you do then the odds don't matter at all, you have 0 chance of survival.

 

Unless you can shoot a Jedi or Sith in the back, every BH, Trooper, Agent and Smuggler would be dead before they can even raise their weapon. The circumstances are irrelevant. If you read he books, it's alawys pointed out over and over again how the Force makes you move and reactg faster than any non-Force user ever could and that alone means the chance of survival drops to 0%. Think about it, how could you possibly get a single shot off before someone FASTER than you only has to make a tiny gesture with their hand to send you flying, when you have to raise your weapon? It's physically impossible for a normal person. The exception being cyborgs etc, but that's a different story.

 

But... at the same time, why is any NON-Force user a challenging opponent to Sith and Jedi? They wouldn't be. In cut-scenes the Sith can choke people to death, and does on multiple occasions. That would end every single fight in the game against non-Force users.

 

So... in the end, you just have to forget about it.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Jandi

[Exosasa]

Back on topic, I believe

 

Nox & Marr > Mortis, Ravage, Vowrawn > Other Scrubs > > > > > > > > >> >> > > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zhorrid, possibly

 

 

I can explain why if anyone wants to ask.

[Leaveshill]

Back on topic, I believe

 

Nox & Marr > Mortis, Ravage, Vowrawn > Other Scrubs > > > > > > > > >> >> > > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zhorrid, possibly

 

 

I can explain why if anyone wants to ask.

 

It seems to me like ; Marr - top dog

Mortis, Ravage and more recently Nox are included in Marr's inner circle, which is "free of powerplays" as Marr has a vision of a unified Empire. This "group" are the most powerful, but I won't claim to know if more of the Dark Council members are "Members" of it or not. At least they're, together, the head of the Council. The rest of the DC are more or less irrelevant to the story.

[Exosasa]

It seems to me like ; Marr - top dog

Mortis, Ravage and more recently Nox are included in Marr's inner circle, which is "free of powerplays" as Marr has a vision of a unified Empire. This "group" are the most powerful, but I won't claim to know if more of the Dark Council members are "Members" of it or not. At least they're, together, the head of the Council. The rest of the DC are more or less irrelevant to the story.

 

I consider Nox on Marr's level. Nox is the only one Marr is standing side-by-side with, supporting, and being buddy-buddy with. In the SI SoR class mission, it's alluded to that Marr and Nox have combined fleets to lead Military stuff. That has to mean something.