Not understanding the hate for Consular story

[CloudCastle]

My first consular was a shadow and I played her as staunchly light side. I enjoyed the story well enough, especially certain parts, but it wasn't my favorite.

 

With 12x I tried playing a DS sage and so far....I just can't do it. I agree with everyone who said that the story doesn't make sense that way, and that's a shame. I got frustrated and set him aside after chapter 1 and switched to Jedi Knight. I wanted him to be a tough-minded character, who believed in striving for the greater good even if that meant sacrificing others. I also considered having him become slowly corrupted by his thirst for arcane Force knowledge. With chap 1, I rarely had the opportunity to have him choose meaningful DS decisions. I gave him a cathar honor sword that I had been saving for probably 2 years now (ha ha, seriously, sheesh) and wanted him to choose killing the afflicted Masters because honor demanded that they not have to live the rest of their lives in shame due to their past actions. But whenever I chose the DS option to kill one, my character would never spout any meaningful reason for doing so. It was always something like "rawr, I like killing!" I feel like the game doesn't support the character concept I had for him, or any DS concept at all.

 

I may give him a try again, hoping things get better in chap 2, but I'm skeptical.

[Eidolooon]

Maybe that is because as pretty much everyone else you are becomming someone really strong, with almost unlimited powers or/and resources. As JC you are what?... Some naive healer, high five. Except that 1st chapter is really horrible, but as the story goes by, i did enjoy it. Sadly still last place in my personal ranking.

[DomiSotto]

So, you don’t like it because you can actually empathise with your opponents, and because they are not vile and horrid per se, but suffered ills by ye common enemy?

 

To me, it’s a good thing. There are stories in the game where your villain cannot be redeemed and are utterly unlikable, like Lord Barras, and fantasy genre is full of them. But Bio had Sarevok in Bio’s very first game to gain wide acclaim, the Child that Gorion did not save… and we are in the same land here.

 

Going through 12xXP right now, I am amazed how diverse Bio’s writing is in this game for the class plots, how much interesting lore there is, and just how well they did on a massive game like that, keeping protagonists distinct. Every character is a different experience, different theme… Holy cow. I think that it is great they chose to work angles for their stories, and not make it all so generic in an aim to be appealing to the majority.

 

I think it’s good that we can love and hate different class stories, and find a protagonist that feels ‘right’.

Consular did really hit home for me, and made for a gaming experience I crave to repeat.

[Karkais]

So ... exactly like Zash, Baras and Orgus?

 

Actually Baras does teach the SW, lecturing for example about sith code. Its not much I know, but still more tutoring than what pretty much every other force-based class receive.

[Yria]

The story as a whole is just very poorly executed. You're never given a lot of focus or motivation and throughout the storyline it feels as though there's no sense of leadership from your character

Yep. I liked the storyline, but there were a few things in how it was executed that realy bugged me. Too many fade-to-blacks, for example. "I have important news! Let me tell you what I've found..." - then thud, FTB. Almost every time I had a briefing with Satele, or Syo, or whoever, I was forced to stare at the black screen. Looked childish, really, like they were too lazy to write actual dialogues or even didn't know how to write it. No other class has this kind of thing.

Also, what people above already said about motivation. I still remember how shocked I was in the end of Coruscant story arc.

 

Jedi Council: So you are the only one who can heal our masters. Go heal them.

Me: Btw, the Noeticon said it can kill me if I use it too often.

Satele: Yeah, but rest assured, we all honor your sacrifice.

Not even "Try not to get yourself killed", or "Are you sure you can do this?". She already deems me dead. She practically orders me to go and give my life away for the sake of some other jedi because I can. I know, jedi are suppoused to be selfless and noble, but... shouldn't that kinda be my own decision? You can't just tell someone to sacrifice themself even if they are jedi.

 

It really wasn't their fault they committed such acts. It was really someone else in control of them. To just kill them means you really are just being dark side to be dark side.

Or that you just like living, and you still have to stop them from commiting even more crimes. I mean, it's not your fault they'd fallen victims to that plague, either. Choosing to give your life for somebody else's life is noble. Choosing not to do so, however, isn't exactly dark side. It's just normal. So while killing the first couple of masters may indeed be "dark side just for lulz", later on it's either you or them. Yes, you are a jedi, but nobody said you're bound to be a perfect one.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Yria

[SithKoriandr]

Yep. I liked the storyline, but there were a few things in how it was executed that realy bugged me. Too many fade-to-blacks, for example. "I have important news! Let me tell you what I've found..." - then thud, FTB. Almost every time I had a briefing with Satele, or Syo, or whoever, I was forced to stare at the black screen. Looked childish, really, like they were too lazy to write actual dialogues or even didn't know how to write it. No other class has this kind of thing.

Also, what people above already said about motivation. I still remember how shocked I was in the end of Coruscant story arc.

 

Jedi Council: So you are the only one who can heal our masters. Go heal them.

Me: Btw, the Noeticon said it can kill me if I use it too often.

Satele: Yeah, but rest assured, we all honor your sacrifice.

Not even "Try not to get yourself killed", or "Are you sure you can do this?". She already deems me dead. She practically orders me to go and give my life away for the sake of some other jedi because I can. I know, jedi are suppoused to be selfless and noble, but... shouldn't that kinda be my own decision? You can't just tell someone to sacrifice themself even if they are jedi.

 

 

Or that you just like living, and you still have to stop them from commiting even more crimes. I mean, it's not your fault they'd fallen victims to that plague, either. Choosing to give your life for somebody else's life is noble. Choosing not to do so, however, isn't exactly dark side. It's just normal. So while killing the first couple of masters may indeed be "dark side just for lulz", later on it's either you or them. Yes, you are a jedi, but nobody said you're bound to be a perfect one.

 

That's just it, you defeat them to the point that they're weakened and just need a final blow. Same with all the Children of the Emperor. You either just kill them, no moral issues, or you get to the point of the killing blow and they speak up about how they trying to fight the Emperor's control over them.

 

It really isn't a you or them choice when you're given the choice of them living or not.

[Yria]

It really isn't a you or them choice when you're given the choice of them living or not.

Yes, it is. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I was not speaking about the Children, only about the masters from chapter 1. With them, it is "you or them" choice every time, because if you choose to shield them (as opposed to killing them), you weaken yourself, and you've been warned that after a number of shieldings you are going to die. So every master you save at the cost of your own power brings you one step closer to death.

Still sure you want to shield all of them, and that killing is purely dark side choice here? to me it looks more like self-defence. Not exactly what a good jedi would choose, but again, who said you ought to be good...

 

That said, I think "shield or kill" is a bit forced choice. How about "hand them over to the Jedi Council" at least? All those afflicted masters became a problem because nobody had expected them to go rogue. If put under constant watch, guarded by other jedi, I doubt they would cause that much destruction.

[DomiSotto]

Syo recites the Jedi code in the intro for the Consular, just like Baras recites the Sith code to the Warrior, only the Consular doesn’t face the humiliating cutscene where s/he given no choice but to NOT know the Sith Code (!)

 

The plague is supposed to spread if not stopped, affecting more and more Jedi as the Plague Master gains power. It is up to you to shield the Order. You abstain from saving others in order to preserve just self. It is a DS motivation, so leads you down the path to the Dark Side. To fall is such a quiet thing.

 

Too often the DS choices are about kicking puppies and eating babies. Now, you get a subtler choice, you have the shades of gray in the story, the fallible, human factor accounted for… I like it.

 

By comparison, my Inquisitor was forced to stand with his arms folded across his chest when an apprentice he would have chosen was slaughtered before his eyes (apparently, what’s allowed to Lord Zash is not allowed to Lord Player). He was not allowed to even feebly object to the killer joining him, let alone send him to be executed as Sith rules demand; the only choice he had was to joyfully accept the guy. On the other side of the spectrum, the very next quest, he was given a wheel with 3 LS choices (!) on it (delivered in the same brutal tone, anyway). Before that he could do nothing but create and trigger a doomsday device, a decision that haunted the Exile for years, in another DS only stint….

 

Maybe a Sage’s story doesn’t develop as well on a fully DS character as on a LS, but at least you can choose.

I am at a loss right now what exactly my Inquisitor is with these swings in railroading and the false assumptions I made on the limited info I possessed when starting the character. The game certainly did not allow me to play the concept I had in mind after reading the blurb on the Inq’s background. I saw a simple, illiterate slave touched by the Force that hears the Code as “all chains must be broken” and who is completely indifferent to his own fate. From other people’s comments I thought Ashara was a spoiled princess type, so I wanted him to be fascinated by her and visualizing her as something too high above to even touch. Totally off base.

 

On the first play-through, it is hard to conceptualize the character that works in synergy with the game’s material. On some characters you luck out, particularly when it is as obvious as making a DS PB Sith Warrior, on the others you will create an emotional dissonance between what you would have wanted and what you’ve got. The story where you have that synergy will appeal more, the story that continues to clash would appeal less, and will ring false. My second Inq will fit more naturally into the game material.

 

In the end, a round of applause to BioWARE for diverse and interesting stories, the usual solid quality of writing and the admirable effort to provide the branching.

Edited November 14, 2014 by DomiSotto

[Gwena]

The main reason I find the Consular story "dislikeable" has to do more with the dialogue than the actual plot, if that makes any sense?

 

IMHO, the dialogue options are more limiting for the Consular than for the other classes I have played. You can be Saint Jedi, the kind and helpful. You can be a robot. Or you can be an uncaring jerk that sounds vaguely whiny. Mind you, that is mostly for the male. The female manages to sound more callous and rhymes-with-witch-y when not being nice. Still, though, it is really easy to wind up with a schizophrenic sounding character that is a paragon of virtue one moment and an apathetic complainer the next. With most other classes, I feel that you can more easily vary between dialogue options 1/2/3 while maintaining a fairly consistent personality.

 

Also (for the first act in particular), I found the explanations your character gives at times quite frustrating. Come on, you're supposed to be intelligent and one of the best -- surely you can find a better descriptor than "ill"? I won't say this ruined the story for me, but it did lessen my enjoyment of it.

 

On the first play-through, it is hard to conceptualize the character that works in synergy with the game’s material. On some characters you luck out, particularly when it is as obvious as making a DS PB Sith Warrior, on the others you will create an emotional dissonance between what you would have wanted and what you’ve got. The story where you have that synergy will appeal more, the story that continues to clash would appeal less, and will ring false.

This is an excellent point, and ties in with what I mentioned above about the dialogue. IMHO, the Consular is one of the least flexible in terms of what type of personality/alignment they can "pull off". I suspect that many people who just can't get into the Consular story envision or wish to play their character in a way that simply doesn't mesh well with the class.

 

For the record, despite the more sedate pace, I do think that the Consular story is pretty good. Yet I absolutely loathe playing it on my male Shadow, who I envisioned as an alternate version of my Assassin (just, lol no), while I really enjoyed it on my sweet female Sage.

[SithKoriandr]

Yes, it is. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I was not speaking about the Children, only about the masters from chapter 1. With them, it is "you or them" choice every time, because if you choose to shield them (as opposed to killing them), you weaken yourself, and you've been warned that after a number of shieldings you are going to die. So every master you save at the cost of your own power brings you one step closer to death.

Still sure you want to shield all of them, and that killing is purely dark side choice here? to me it looks more like self-defence. Not exactly what a good jedi would choose, but again, who said you ought to be good...

 

That said, I think "shield or kill" is a bit forced choice. How about "hand them over to the Jedi Council" at least? All those afflicted masters became a problem because nobody had expected them to go rogue. If put under constant watch, guarded by other jedi, I doubt they would cause that much destruction.

 

Oh! Even there, it feels like my Jedi would try to save them instead of killing them, but then it goes to thinking, why couldn't we just lock them up in restraints until we found the real threat.

[Sounders_Fan]

I didn't like the consular story; felt like Dragon Age origins in space.

 

find an allies; bring allies to Correllia. use allies to fight last battle while your group goes in solo to take out the last boss.

 

Act 1 was good; went way down hill from there. Way too slow of a story. Guess I didn't hate it; just think it is the weakest and least enjoyable of the stories.

[JLazarillo]

Syo recites the Jedi code in the intro for the Consular, just like Baras recites the Sith code to the Warrior, only the Consular doesn’t face the humiliating cutscene where s/he given no choice but to NOT know the Sith Code (!)

 

The plague is supposed to spread if not stopped, affecting more and more Jedi as the Plague Master gains power. It is up to you to shield the Order. You abstain from saving others in order to preserve just self. It is a DS motivation, so leads you down the path to the Dark Side. To fall is such a quiet thing.

 

Too often the DS choices are about kicking puppies and eating babies. Now, you get a subtler choice, you have the shades of gray in the story, the fallible, human factor accounted for… I like it.

 

Unfortunately, there's no real ability to acknowledge this within the story itself. That's part why I say that Consular had a window to logically play a "dark" character (only part, because also, Rajivari), but always strayed away from the obvious choice.

[Vicentegrev]

OP here with an update: I get it

 

finished Act 1 and boy was I disappointed.

I chose to destroy Vivicar for the greater good, but all the masters I shielded before (killed none of them) all died -- except Yuon Paar, your Master with whom you've had maybe a dozen conversations yet to whom you're utterly devoted.

 

 

unless I misunderstood the dialogue that's a big Eff-You to the player and poor writing: Nyah Nyah, everything you just did didn't matter. I haven't the heart nor the patience to continue the story especially considering my complete lack of interest in any of the companions.

 

Ohwell

[Galdos]

OP here with an update: I get it

 

finished Act 1 and boy was I disappointed.

I chose to destroy Vivicar for the greater good, but all the masters I shielded before (killed none of them) all died -- except Yuon Paar, your Master with whom you've had maybe a dozen conversations yet to whom you're utterly devoted.

 

 

unless I misunderstood the dialogue that's a big Eff-You to the player and poor writing: Nyah Nyah, everything you just did didn't matter. I haven't the heart nor the patience to continue the story especially considering my complete lack of interest in any of the companions.

 

Ohwell

 

Correct, You miss understood the dialogue or got distracted and miss heard a line. Its been a while sense I played it but he pretty much tells you flat out (if I remember) that everyone he has ever touched WILL die if he dies

[Vicentegrev]

Correct, You miss understood the dialogue or got distracted and miss heard a line. Its been a while sense I played it but he pretty much tells you flat out (if I remember) that everyone he has ever touched WILL die if he dies

 

 

 

http://www.torhead.com/mission/2J1nVBj/vivicar-awaits#comments

 

I'm not so sure, if you expand the dialogue options in that link it implies I didn't misunderstand

those Masters die if you killed Vivicar/Morrhage

 

[MASOLIZ]

Not sure if this has been said or not admittedly I didn't read the whole thread, but as far as the thread title is concerned hate is hate don't try to understand it:cool: ill admit I post this after a few shots and I'm a pretty cool drunk:p Edited November 16, 2014 by MASOLIZ

[Bultitudes_Loke]

Choosing to give your life for somebody else's life is noble. Choosing not to do so, however, isn't exactly dark side. It's just normal. So while killing the first couple of masters may indeed be "dark side just for lulz", later on it's either you or them. Yes, you are a jedi, but nobody said you're bound to be a perfect one.

 

So both my Knight and Consular are fully Light (or aiming to be) while both my Sith are fully Dark - beyond the cosmetic changes, do the NPCs actually talk to you differently or give you different conversation options as you get more Dark as a Jedi, or Light as a Sith?

 

My assumption is no, because that's way too many possible options for the scripting team, but still...

[DomiSotto]

//

In a few instances, your alignment choice is commented upon. It is hard to notice sometimes, because the overall story carries over, but a LS Inquisitor would say something like “I would save you with my light”, or an NPC would say “You are not such a bad person.” I have heard that the Knight gets a screaming fit from Satele if s/he is DS.

 

And, OMG, another wall of text from me. Boo.

 

I understand it that the stories that are more personal to the protagonist are easier to get into – see the almost universal love for the Warrior’s story which is basically Warrior vs Barras beginning to end.

 

The Consular’s story is less personal than most, I can see that. You ally with the characters that it is hard to form strong emotional connections with, like Yuon, Qyzen, Jedi Masters set, Rift Alliance folks. Your enemies are shadows, and stay behind the scene, never right in your face like Skavak, Barras or Zash/Thanaton.

 

You do not have an early anchor for affection in the Jedi Oder. Your team does not supply an early romantic/buddy interest like the Knight’s. You are stuck with Qyzen who actively dislikes you, and well, the Trandoshian coolness factor is probably lost on most of the players who don’t go wild for Bossk. It was a valiant attempt on the writer’s part not to sell out on Qyzen, but having a first companion, who doesn’t like anything you say, openly likes Yuon more than your character, and needs 2x gifts, does suck. Most stories have a stronger 1st companion who has a stronger emotional connection with the PC, and I think all 7 remaining have an easy affection buy.

 

I remember liking Tython (archeology, yay!), but my Coruscant, Taris and Nar Shadda were rocky. Then I started revelling in the whole healing and self-sacrifice, and the feel as the story progressed that I am truly working the big picture rather than separate missions, heroic as they may be. It made me feel like I am paving the road to actually winning the war, rather than working on an isolated encounter. I also loved it that I have no tasks that directly lead to my personal elevation. The honors were just bestowed on my character without my gunning for them.

 

On top of it, I really liked Tharan +Holiday’s quirky lovestory, and the moment I met Zenith, my emotional anchor was there for good, stronger than in any other story I played. Having the Beloved Companion on the crew does help the enjoyment J Still puts a smile on my face whenever I load the Consular.

 

Anyway, by now I have finished Chapter 3 on Consular, Smuggler, Warrior and Inquisitor, Chapter 2 – on the Trooper, started Ch2 on the IA, co-played with a Knight to the end, and I still love the Consular. Can’t help it J

[MadHobbit]

I enjoyed the JC storyline. I did it lightside. For me it is the second best one I played. BH light side i liked best.SI I

found ok,JK i did not like . It all seems to be a personal choice

[Yezzan]

I finished the counselor story on Monday of this week and it is the best story-line republic side. The Jedi Counselor story-line is the quintessence of the Jedi. I don't understand how anyone who read the books or watched the movies could dislike this storyline.

[DogeDandolo]

I finished the counselor story on Monday of this week and it is the best story-line republic side. The Jedi Counselor story-line is the quintessence of the Jedi. I don't understand how anyone who read the books or watched the movies could dislike this storyline.

 

I don't even like the Star Wars films or franchise, and even I loved the Consular

[Jedi_riches]

There are many issues with the Consular story but personally I must admit I am enjoying it (only recently got to chapter 3) but I can see why people don't.

 

1) it is not as action packed as the Jedi Knight story, your role is more about "aggressive negotiations" (excuse the quote) and being a diplomat, for instance when searching for the missing master on Nar Shaddaa you are also having to try to keep secret that a jedi is behind the threat on the planet. I don't mind personally especially since you build up trust with potential allies in chapter 2 and 3.

 

2) So far I have not seen any companion that really grabs me, Qyzen is single minded (goddess and hunting honour) Cedrex is full of himself (but I don't mind holiday) Zenith is as close as I get to liking any of them, only just got Iresso, Nadia seems sweet but I helped a guild mate defeat Stark at the weekend using my guardian and saw the cut scene that followed and found she is actually quite scary plus you get her too late in the game to fill her out properly.

 

3) I get that during chapter 1 you are healing missing masters from the plague and that according to the datacron masters it is supposed to "weaken" you the more people who you shield until you kill the plague-master, but I just never felt that it was affecting me at all other than someone saying "oh what did you do you look so weak". I know from this thread that it was supposed to affect you possibly in the beta.

I think there was supposed to be this ethical road between saving masters and effecting your health but since shielding did not affect me I just did not feel it at all. Maybe next time I play consular I won't use my class buffs to cripple myself (at least slightly) to simulate weakening you.

 

4) The voice actors and dialogue choices are sometimes horrible either come off as "Goody-Goody" or acting like a complete and utter .......

As for the voice actors, I did not take necessary dislike to the female voice I know many others do (I stopped playing as I disliked playing as a female character but that's another story) I started a female character mainly as I absolutely hated the male voice (but I have learned to tolerate it overtime)

Edited November 19, 2014 by Jedi_riches

[vathouille]

Inq and consular storylines have felt weak to me, and this is mostly due to a shared design flaw :

 

SWTOR is a relatively action packed MMO, and dialogues and cutscenes can only do so much. In another setting, these storylines could have been branching, dialog oriented treasures, but it's simply not doable in an MMO where you have to have your player travel from place to place and kill stuff to level up.

 

They suffer from other flaws that have been listed here (my pet hate is "oh master yuon has been such a good master to me" when you barely talk to her twice) but the main one is due to the fact that scheming (Inq) and diplomacy (JC) cannot really be materialized within the limits of the game.

 

Once I realized that, I forced myself to read between the lines and overlook the most blatant inconsistencies and I managed to enjoy them (they do have their moments if you're willing to settle for a suspension is disbelief).

[Gwena]

Running through my second and third Consular these past weeks, I've realized one other reason the Consular story may be less appealing: Companion interaction/involvement, or lack thereof. (spoilers are regarding NPC's, just to be safe)

 

You round up this group of awesome NPC's, including an Esh-Ka and a Voss Mystic and a bunch of interesting diplomats, and have a lot of interaction with them . . . seemingly, at the expense of interaction and dialogue with your actual companions. For example, I'm pretty sure I've heard more out of that Twi'lek diplomat in story cutscenes than I've heard out of Zenith and Qyzen combined, which is rather depressing considering that Zenith is my favorite companion and will be sticking around forever, while that diplomat is going to vanish into the story-void at some point.

 

Then you get characters like Gaden-Ko, who, on Voss, seems to get the "this is your next companion!" treatment as far as how much you interact with him -- he even follows you around at some point, and talks in your story cutscenes after he comes onto your ship -- but he turns out to be just another temporary NPC.

 

On other classes, your companions are generally the NPC's you get to talk with during story cutscenes on your ship, and they sometimes have prominent roles in your "between planets" story quests. For the Consular, there are a bunch of other non-Companion NPC's that tend to steal the show, so to speak.

 

Mind you, it is pretty neat what the Consular gets to do, gathering such a group. But IMHO it just doesn't seem very rewarding, getting invested in all these NPC's that are only temporary instead of your actual companions.

 

Still <3 my Sage, though.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Gwena

[SithKoriandr]

Inq and consular storylines have felt weak to me, and this is mostly due to a shared design flaw :

 

SWTOR is a relatively action packed MMO, and dialogues and cutscenes can only do so much. In another setting, these storylines could have been branching, dialog oriented treasures, but it's simply not doable in an MMO where you have to have your player travel from place to place and kill stuff to level up.

 

They suffer from other flaws that have been listed here (my pet hate is "oh master yuon has been such a good master to me" when you barely talk to her twice) but the main one is due to the fact that scheming (Inq) and diplomacy (JC) cannot really be materialized within the limits of the game.

 

Once I realized that, I forced myself to read between the lines and overlook the most blatant inconsistencies and I managed to enjoy them (they do have their moments if you're willing to settle for a suspension is disbelief).

 

I didn't care for that aspect with Yuon either, but then decided there was some unseen moments, to help the story along. But yes, I wish she was around longer.