Selenial Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 OK, I'm going to make a decision here. The Hutts can provide a small quantity of fighter-class vessels. A wing, or so. However, said craft is not available instantly. They need to travel there from wherever the nearest Hutt controlled world is. Nearest Hutt Planet or Makeb/Tatooine? Because the nearest Hutt Planet would probably be... coruscant.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Heh. Just because you have never led a fleet of warships before doesn't mean you're inexperienced, he had at least studied Naval warfare which is all Surik had done as well. How is him beating a computer that lacked all the Skill of the real deal, better than her single handedly pushing back the Mandalorians? And I say single handedly, since neither Revan or Malak led the numbers of battles she did. She had never in her life led a fleet battle either. She was fighting the Mandalorians. That was the fleet of one rather small planet conquering the Republic. Nek defeated an entire galaxy's fleet through expect tactics using a fleet technologically and numerically inferior. The Mandalorian's fleet wasn't massive, it was just well trained and well coordinated. Meetra was a good fleet officer, and did very well fighting the Mandalorians. Don't get me wrong here, I don't deny that, but to compare her success against the Mandalorians to the successes of Nek shows a lack of information regarding Nek's achievements. That quote is taken unbelievably out of context. Luke leaked that Mara Jade and Jacen were aboard that Vessel, in critical condition. What idiot Wouldn't attack it? And whose idea was it to do so? Who set up the entire ambush? No it is exemplifying his ability to manipulate a force-sensitive. He's also outwitted Jedi and successfully predicted then defeated Confederate and Cha Niathal's forces routinely. Later, he was instrumental in directing the recapture of Coruscant from the Lost Tribe and Abeloth. How is force sensitivity anything to do with this? She never actively employed Battle Meditation, it was all subconcious as many of her talents were, and because of this it was less Potent. It contributes to her effectiveness when she was fighting the Mandalorians. Thus her tactics must take that into consideration. When we see that her Battle Med is (as you say) less potent, we can see that Nomi's Battle Med will overwhelm it and decrease Meetra's tactical prowess and/or efficiency. Again she's done just as many impressive things as Nek has done, just as Nek helped to push back the Vong, she pushed back the Mandalorians alone. With a smaller fleet, a more inexperienced Force and a rag tag team of Jedi. No she really hasn't. Again, Vong War/2nd GCW/ Swarm War/ Lost Tribe etc... He doesn't have to be in a fighter, however once the enemy is lured in I think he would be. With a wing of starfighters protecting him, and Dagger wing at his back, he won't go down. Dagger wing being the best wing of starfighter pilots in the entire Republic, as good in the skies as Havoc was on the ground. Their constant string of successes against impossible odds was a huge upper of Morale in the fleet. Cool, you have good pilots. It's still 2:1 with better fighters on the Resistance side and Wedge is still out there and not helping coordinate the fight. Also the Revanchists flew in the skies constantly, they don't even need to be taken from the ground force as they count as my naval officers. However I do agree for the first portion of the battle he will lead his fighters from the bridge. Ok so yes, I think Wedge will stay there though. And Revanchists? I want a ruling from Beni or Aurbere here because I wasn't aware you can just claim force-using pilots out of thin air. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but I'll reply as if you aren't. Nomi's battle meditation is good, but it has never been used from Planet side before, and never to the extent where it battles someone elses. The Temple is a good Light Side Nexus, but it is the only reason she can even contemplate reaching her fleet, and it is not as powerful of a Nexus as the Praxeum on Yavin IV. No Jedi performed strong feats in there, it didn't save them from the 501'st. After all, the only time it's properly described is during the construction of the Jedi Temple, where it was described as an Above average concentration of force Energy. I'll let Rayla bring the Battle Meditation argument and quotes to bear as I don't have all the sources on hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Nearest Hutt Planet or Makeb/Tatooine? Because the nearest Hutt Planet would probably be... coruscant.? Considering your supplier is based on Makeb then that appears to be where they're coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Nearest Hutt Planet or Makeb/Tatooine? Because the nearest Hutt Planet would probably be... coruscant.? Well, a world where the Hutts rule. Coruscant not being one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Considering your supplier is based on Makeb then that appears to be where they're coming from. Oh, the Hutts are a supplier. Never mind then, they'll have to deploy from Makeb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Oh, the Hutts are a supplier. Never mind then, they'll have to deploy from Makeb. Why though? Why not just join the fleet? Since the fleets have to have started from somewhere. *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Why though? Why not just join the fleet? Since the fleets have to have started from somewhere. *shrug* It's always been that the fleets start out above the planet out of firing range of each other. I'm just going with how it's always been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) She was fighting the Mandalorians. That was the fleet of one rather small planet conquering the Republic. Nek defeated an entire galaxy's fleet through expect tactics using a fleet technologically and numerically inferior. The Mandalorian's fleet wasn't massive, it was just well trained and well coordinated. Meetra was a good fleet officer, and did very well fighting the Mandalorians. Don't get me wrong here, I don't deny that, but to compare her success against the Mandalorians to the successes of Nek shows a lack of information regarding Nek's achievements. That's rather presumptuous, don't you think? I've read many books containing Nek, or refferences to his Accolades, the entirety of the Dark Nest series, FOTJ Series, and LOTF Series... does he even appear in any others? If you think the Mandalorian fleet wasn't massive, and it stemmed from one Planet I honestly don't know what to tell you. The mandalorians had a galaxy spanning Fleet manufacturer at their backs, that they used to create an Armada Larger than the Republics. They were better armed, more coordinated, better soldiers and damn-right determined. Revan and Surik turned the war alone, Surik on the battlefield. I seriously don't understand why you don't understand this, they were the best tacticians to grace the Galaxy in the space of 3000-4000 years, the culmination of training and raw talent. And I'm not even trying to say Meetra is better... And whose idea was it to do so? Who set up the entire ambush? No it is exemplifying his ability to manipulate a force-sensitive. He's also outwitted Jedi and successfully predicted then defeated Confederate and Cha Niathal's forces routinely. Later, he was instrumental in directing the recapture of Coruscant from the Lost Tribe and Abeloth. Been a while since I've read the series but it was Luke... If it was Nek then I concede, but again, it's not exactly a mind bogglingly brilliant plan, it's pretty standard. Hell, the Inquisitor's Luminara trap was probably better, dont hear me going around calling him the next Thrawn. It contributes to her effectiveness when she was fighting the Mandalorians. Thus her tactics must take that into consideration. When we see that her Battle Med is (as you say) less potent, we can see that Nomi's Battle Med will overwhelm it and decrease Meetra's tactical prowess and/or efficiency. This is entirely arbitrary assumption however. We don't know whether Nomi's battle meditation even works like that, and how powerful it will be. It's a bit of a cop-out argument to be honest, If Battle Meditation works like that then theoretically Surik could pop down to the Surface of Coruscant, Force bond with Revan and she would have a far more potent Battle Meditation than Nomi. Hell, if this Temple mularky continues as an Argument I might delve into that. No she really hasn't. Again, Vong War/2nd GCW/ Swarm War/ Lost Tribe etc... Again, Mandalorian wars. Just because it's only one showing (though a years long) doesnt mean it's lesser. Hell if you want more, Khoonda, Onderon, Dxun itself... There's a lot. Cool, you have good pilots. It's still 2:1 with better fighters on the Resistance side and Wedge is still out there and not helping coordinate the fight.Ok so yes, I think Wedge will stay there though. And Revanchists? I want a ruling from Beni or Aurbere here because I wasn't aware you can just claim force-using pilots out of thin air. 2:1, with worse Pilots and Even ships (BT-Y's for life) whilst the Resistance is int he midst of 860 Point Defense Turrets. Please actually take the big picture into account. Beni already said Rayla gets them from the PT Knights, why shouldn't I? Only difference is generally 1 PT Jedi, perhaps 2, fought in Starfighters at any given battle this size, whereas it was 4-6 Revanchists. Edited November 6, 2014 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 It's always been that the fleets start out above the planet out of firing range of each other. I'm just going with how it's always been. Fair enough, just curious since my Sienar reinforcements were there off the Bat last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Did Revanchists actually do any piloting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Did Revanchists actually do any piloting? Limited information, but they did during the Battle to capture Darth Revan (not just the ones flying the Shuttles) as well as in the Battle for the Star Forge. Only real battles we've seen :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) Fair enough, just curious since my Sienar reinforcements were there off the Bat last time. Well, I don't remember that. However, I may be willing to change my decision, under certain conditions. I'll think about it. Edited November 6, 2014 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Well, I don't remember that. However, I may be willing to change my decision, under certain conditions. I'll think about it. *shrug* I'm kind of bored of asking for this, I no longer care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Limited information, but they did during the Battle to capture Darth Revan (not just the ones flying the Shuttles) as well as in the Battle for the Star Forge. Only real battles we've seen :/ I suppose some pilots could be deployed then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 *shrug* I'm kind of bored of asking for this, I no longer care. Alrighty then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) That's rather presumptuous, don't you think? I've read many books containing Nek, or refferences to his Accolades, the entirety of the Dark Nest series, FOTJ Series, and LOTF Series... does he even appear in any others? You obviously don't remember those very well then do you? If you think the Mandalorian fleet wasn't massive, and it stemmed from one Planet I honestly don't know what to tell you. The mandalorians had a galaxy spanning Fleet manufacturer at their backs, that they used to create an Armada Larger than the Republics. They were better armed, more coordinated, better soldiers and damn-right determined. I am well aware that the Mandalorians had conquered a significant amount of space prior and had a well-developed industrial backing. After looking yeah I thought that the Mandos had fewer ships but you're right they were equal. Even so, Meetra's accomplishments during the Mandalorian War was impressive. My point though is that they aren't as impressive. But here, if you want to impress me, show me a strategy that she's implemented that could benefit her in this Kaggath. I mean, as fun as endlessly debating in circles how we should rank the accomplishments of these two would be how about we stick to presenting how they'll use that experience in the match. That'll make for more point per post as well I'd imagine. Revan and Surik turned the war alone, Surik on the battlefield. I seriously don't understand why you don't understand this, they were the best tacticians to grace the Galaxy in the space of 3000-4000 years, the culmination of training and raw talent. And I'm not even trying to say Meetra is better... Ok, I'm arguing that is space, Nek is a better leader. Not by a massive amount, but the edge falls in his direction. Admittedly though, the Reborn has the advantage of having more tacticians. Can we agree on these two statements right here? It is alright to admit a fault in your faction Sel, it won't kill you and it'll make the debate flow more smoothly. Been a while since I've read the series but it was Luke... If it was Nek then I concede, but again, it's not exactly a mind bogglingly brilliant plan, it's pretty standard. Hell, the Inquisitor's Luminara trap was probably better, dont hear me going around calling him the next Thrawn. Nope it was all Nek, from taking down the Admiral Akbar, breaking the dartship screen, to the Healing Star he predicted almost everything, and what he didn't he'd prepared for anyways. Read his Wookieepedia page under the Battle of Tenupe section. This is entirely arbitrary assumption however. We don't know whether Nomi's battle meditation even works like that, and how powerful it will be. It's a bit of a cop-out argument to be honest, If Battle Meditation works like that then theoretically Surik could pop down to the Surface of Coruscant, Force bond with Revan and she would have a far more potent Battle Meditation than Nomi. And all this is arbitrary as well so I fail to see what progress has been made. Force Bond in this context btw, is really just your assumption on how powerful it is. Again, Mandalorian wars. Just because it's only one showing (though a years long) doesnt mean it's lesser. Hell if you want more, Khoonda, Onderon, Dxun itself... There's a lot. One showing just means she doesn't have accumulation of different strategies and tactics that Nek has developed. She is talented, intelligent, and experienced. But he has all that plus more experience. That gives him that slight edge. Also remember, it makes no sense that she can learn force-powers and saber techniques enough to butcher him and yet she can still be a better tactician as well? That is ridiculous, she doesn't have anywhere close to his experience he's gained over his lifetime. ]2:1, with worse Pilots and Even ships (BT-Y's for life) whilst the Resistance is int he midst of 860 Point Defense Turrets. The Reborn is in the midst of 600+ Point Defence Turrets and 4k+ better fighters. And Clone pilots are leap and bounds better than GR pilots. They were literally bred for it. Please actually take the big picture into account. Please do. Beni already said Rayla gets them from the PT Knights, why shouldn't I? Only difference is generally 1 PT Jedi, perhaps 2, fought in Starfighters at any given battle this size, whereas it was 4-6 Revanchists. And that makes a difference how exactly when you consider the size of this engagement? Besides, if Force users are allowed in space, they better be of equal numbers. Edited November 6, 2014 by StarSquirrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Ok, I'm arguing that is space, Nek is a better leader. Not by a massive amount, but the edge falls in his direction. Admittedly though, the Reborn has the advantage of having more tacticians. I'm not going to admit something I don't believe to appease you, however you are correct that we are going in circles and should give this up. Perhaps if you replied to the more massive Capital Ship firepower disadvantage the Resistance has? I have yet to see anyone work a way around it. And all this is arbitrary as well so I fail to see what progress has been made. Force Bond in this context btw, is really just your assumption on how powerful it is. Allows them to share each other's pool of Energy. Whilst using his would weaken him, she could theoretically double her strength in the force. The Reborn is in the midst of 600+ Point Defence Turrets and 4k+ better fighters. And Clone pilots are leap and bounds better than GR pilots. They were literally bred for it. No it's not, the fleets wont be right on top of each other but at range, meaning the Point Defense canons of the Republic Resistance do not come into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted November 6, 2014 Author Share Posted November 6, 2014 Your forget Sel, she's sitting on a LS Nexus! Distance is nothing to her at this point. And as evidenced by the CA vs. RR match Sunrider has perhaps the most powerful Battle med of anyone while Surik has a mediocre version at best.I actually agree with Sel, whenever we see battle meditation being performed in space the practioner in question is in space, Coruscant is thousands and thousands of whatever away. Yes, the Jedi Temple will empower her, but all that will do is cancel out the distance, rendering her powers average. Though again I question whether Surik or Sunrider can use planetary wide battle meditation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 No it's not, the fleets wont be right on top of each other but at range, meaning the Point Defense canons of the Republic Resistance do not come into play. You seem confused. Nek isn't stupid enough to send the entire Resistance fighter fleet to face the entire Reborn fleet alone. -He waits when people think he should attack -He likes ambushes or surprises -He prefers to fight from good ranges, then close to mop-up -He forces his enemy to make the decision he wants them to make He'd soften them up, likely picking off Hammerheads or Interdictors at range with massive salvos of Proton Torpedos from the Acclamators. Forcing Meetra to face him. As she crosses the no-mans land headfirst (a tactic she more or less employed at Dxun I might add) the Resistance fighters from the Venators can hide behind one of Coruscant moons (or fly towards the sun) and then, as the Reborn fleet arrives, engage with a fleet of fighters nearly equal to their own, and have ionizers come barreling through the Reborn's flank and decimate their capital ships (Second Battle of Hapes anyone?). From there the Acclamators can finish off the Hammerheads and the Venators can pummel from range while their PDC and fighter complements finish off the enemy fighters and the Ionizers and Imperious destroy the Viscount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 You seem confused. Nek isn't stupid enough to send the entire Resistance fighter fleet to face the entire Reborn fleet alone. -He waits when people think he should attack -He likes ambushes or surprises -He prefers to fight from good ranges, then close to mop-up -He forces his enemy to make the decision he wants them to make He'd soften them up, likely picking off Hammerheads or Interdictors at range with massive salvos of Proton Torpedos from the Acclamators. Forcing Meetra to face him. As she crosses the no-mans land headfirst (a tactic she more or less employed at Dxun I might add) the Resistance fighters from the Venators can hide behind one of Coruscant moons (or fly towards the sun) and then, as the Reborn fleet arrives, engage with a fleet of fighters nearly equal to their own, and have ionizers come barreling through the Reborn's flank and decimate their capital ships (Second Battle of Hapes anyone?). From there the Acclamators can finish off the Hammerheads and the Venators can pummel from range while their PDC and fighter complements finish off the enemy fighters and the Ionizers and Imperious destroy the Viscount. There are multiple flaws with that argument. The acclamators for example, have 4 proton tubes each. 52 shots at once.... 860 point defense turrets, do you really expect a single missile to hit? It's just wasting their arsenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I actually agree with Sel, whenever we see battle meditation being performed in space the practioner in question is in space, Coruscant is thousands and thousands of whatever away. Yes, the Jedi Temple will empower her, but all that will do is cancel out the distance, rendering her powers average. Though again I question whether Surik or Sunrider can use planetary wide battle meditation. Planetary wide and fleet wide are two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 We seem to be focused on Meetra vs. Nek as far as tactics go, but what about Revan vs. Nek? And what kind of impact would Mace Windu have on the battle should he participate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 There are multiple flaws with that argument. The acclamators for example, have 4 proton tubes each. 52 shots at once.... 860 point defense turrets, do you really expect a single missile to hit? It's just wasting their arsenal. But it is provoking them, the shots aren't all meant to hit just get the enemy riled. I never said it'd be the end-all be-all of the strategy... An alternative is to dangle the Venators out in front, taking pot-shots with their long-range settings on the DBY-827 heavy turbolasers.. Point is, it would be up to the Reborn to go to the Resistance fleet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 We seem to be focused on Meetra vs. Nek as far as tactics go, but what about Revan vs. Nek? And what kind of impact would Mace Windu have on the battle should he participate? Revan is a big-picture guy. I've never seen anything good come out of him in small-scale engagements with his leading directly (in the naval scene). Mace is a fantastic naval officer, but I was under the impression that he and Revan were on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Revan is a big-picture guy. I've never seen anything good come out of him in small-scale engagements with his leading directly (in the naval scene). Mace is a fantastic naval officer, but I was under the impression that he and Revan were on the ground. Revan is the Innovator, but there's not much to be innovated here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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