Why do so many people think Form VI is an inferior form of lightsaber combat?

[Loadsamunny]

I mean, it's a balanced "jack of all trades" form that incorporates elements from four of the previous forms before it, and though it grants no significant edge in battle, it also covers up any glaring weaknesses its user might have, achieving its worth in versatility and flexibility.

 

People seem to think that Niman is an inferior and often laughable form of lightsaber combat, and cite such examples as the Battle of Geonosis to support this, since most of the Jedi that were slain during that event were all Form IV practicioners. Yes, it's true that almost all of them were Form IV users, but the form itself is not why so many Jedi fell that day, it was because the majority of those Jedi were barely combatants at all. Form IV was a preferred form of lightsaber combat for Jedi that spent most of their time focusing on the Force and diplomacy, and so it was easily picked up, and most only took it far enough for simple criminal engagements, not for actually lightsaber dueling or serious confrontations. And most of the Jedi that died on Geonosis weren't renowned duelists in the order, but diplomats and scholars.

 

It seems to me that Form IV has gotten a bad reputation because of its relaxed focus and general insufficiency in lightsaber duels or combat against a serious threat, but it's because of the people who used it, not the form itself. Those who died on Geonosis died because they didn't spend enough time training in lightsaber combat, not because the form itself was inadequate.

 

If someone actually spends enough time dedicating themselves to the form (which does take longer than other forms because of how many different key aspects of combat it focuses on, not to mention the incorporation of Force techniques), and masters it to its full potential, it is absolutely as formidable as any other form. We've seen proof of this with Darth Sidious, able to cut down three of the orders top duelists in mere seconds with Form IV, even with Windu supporting them. It is a DEADLY weapon in capable hands.

[BrianDavion]

except it doesn't take as long. thats sort of the point of Niman. it's a easy generalist form, without the intense requirements of other forms. thats why all the sources not that some Jedi consider it "insufficantly demanding" the form ISN'T one that requires a lot of time. it's instead designed for just the oppisite, to give those who don't want to study other forms in depth something they can learn without a ton of effort comparitivly. Also sidious did NOT use form VI, he is noted as being a master and employer of all seven forms Edited November 3, 2014 by BrianDavion

[Loadsamunny]

except it doesn't take as long. thats sort of the point of Niman. it's a easy generalist form, without the intense requirements of other forms. thats why all the sources not that some Jedi consider it "insufficantly demanding" the form ISN'T one that requires a lot of time. it's instead designed for just the oppisite, to give those who don't want to study other forms in depth something they can learn without a ton of effort comparitivly. Also sidious did NOT use form VI, he is noted as being a master and employer of all seven forms

 

And I'm saying that if someone actually takes the time to study Niman at its full and master it, it can be highly formidable, making its user a difficult opponent to face as they can quickly change tactics at a whim to counter their opponents.

 

And yes, Sidious was a master of all forms, but his preferred practice was Form IV. He incorporated elements of all forms of lightsaber combat into his use of Form IV, as he had mastered every other form, so he applied the absolute best of every form drawing from his infinite knowledge of them, while at the same time eliminating the fundamental weaknesses of any one of them. He was ambidexterous and could change tactics and form instantly in combat, which made him a horrifying opponent to face, as he could counter any tactics one might use against him, or lure one into a false sense of security and then cut them down when they thought they had the upper hand.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Loadsamunny

[JianLi]

Because it was viewed as a catalyst to veering down the path to the dark side. As it required the practitioner to indulge in their feelings and emotions in order to channel their own inner darkness into the duel

[gblXsw]

Because it was viewed as a catalyst to veering down the path to the dark side. As it required the practitioner to indulge in their feelings and emotions in order to channel their own inner darkness into the duel

 

That's form VII, Juyo.

[dcaleb]

It being easy to pick up leads to a lot of people who choose it not being that good because they don't practice much, this leads people to believe that it sucks based on the showings of it's users when it truth it just gets picked up a lot by lazy scrubs who aren't very good.

[JianLi]

That's form VII, Juyo.

 

Aww, you're totally right. Vaapad or juyo...i misread the title. I assumed it said form VII as I've come across a few threads where form VII was the topic of great debate.

[JianLi]

Well in my opinion Niman is viewed as inferior by those who only focus on the actual physical aspect of combat. The one's that specialize in finesse and skill with a lightsaber. Where as Niman offers no advantage nor disadvantage in comparison to more aggressive forms and is even stated in sources that the form' s success relies purely on the knowledge, instinct, and creativity of the combatant. So to quote an earlier statement using the Jedi that were slain during the battle of Geonosis, it in fact does comes down to the skill and intuition of the practitioner. As most of the Jedi that died at Geonosis were scholars and diplomats, not warriors trained to specialize in the martial arts of combat. Yes all Jedi are trained in a variation and ideal concept in the art of war, but not all specialize in lightsaber combat.

[Beniboybling]

Source on Sidious using Form VI as his primary form? First I've heard of it, seems unlikely.

[gblXsw]

Source on Sidious using Form VI as his primary form? First I've heard of it, seems unlikely.

 

I believe the OP is just mixing up numbers. In the title it says "Form VI" and he names Niman, but then he continues to say "Form IV". I assume he read that Sidious preferred Form IV and mistakenly thought that was Niman, while it actually is Ataru.

[Beniboybling]

I believe the OP is just mixing up numbers. In the title it says "Form VI" and he names Niman, but then he continues to say "Form IV". I assume he read that Sidious preferred Form IV and mistakenly thought that was Niman, while it actually is Ataru.

Well I don't think Sidious' preferred style has been confirmed in any source, personally I assume its Juyo. Not that the OP doesn't have a point, but if he wants an example he should be citing Exar Kun and Darth Maul.

[gblXsw]

Well I don't think Sidious' preferred style has been confirmed in any source, personally I assume its Juyo. Not that the OP doesn't have a point, but if he wants an example he should be citing Exar Kun and Darth Maul.

 

Officially Sidious is supposed to be a master of all forms and fluidly switching between styles during combat (there's a quote by Nick Gillard, the fight choreographer of the prequel trilogy, somewhere); Ataru just was - iirc - one of the favorites among fans speculating about his style. Maul on the other hand is a confirmed Juyo practitioner (it's mentioned in the article Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber combat and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more sources).

[DougTbx]

I seen Form VI actually as a good base skill that you would then progress to a more specialized form but you retain the advantage that your at least familiar with how the other forms are used and thus how to counter them if needed?

 

One of the better views on NIman I found presented was here

and also Jensaarai1's video on the Niman style is also quite useful as it sums it up , it's easy to learn but difficult to truly master but for those with the will and the drive to truly master it you can be literally a master of everything.

[TalonVII]

Well you also have to remember that there is another style also considered in the form VI style. Jer'kai, the two handed style.

[DougTbx]

That's natural as both of the older fighting styles that we combined to form Niman included twin blade techniques using a long and a short blade. I believe the use of two normal blades is more along the lines associated with Ataru dual blade training.

[mynxvablid]

Greetings,

 

Form VI isn't inferior, per se, but rather those who used it primarily at the Battle of Geonosis weren't adept enough at using it. Niman, also called "The Diplomat's Style", had potential to be a very good style and was the base form that lead to training in Jar Kai, which was the two handed style. However, the Battle of Geonosis pointed out that while the Jedi had the basics down of Niman, the basics weren't enough. Also, there was less study required and less practice needed. As a result of all of this, Niman was found to be inadequate and vulnerable against Makashi (Form II), which was Count Dooku's style, and other aggressive forms like Form V. Another thing is that Niman was originally intended to be a dual saber form, not a single saber form. It was converted to Single saber by the Jedi, but the dual saber form became known as Jar Kai.

 

We see Jar Kai used by Anakin against Dooku in Episode 2, but he reverts back to his Form V when one of his sabers is destroyed. We also see Niman/Jar kai being used by Maul through much of the dual between him and Qui Gonn and Obi Wan at the end of Episode 1, but he switches to Juyo when his saberstaff is cut in half. Even though Niman was used by these saber experts from time to time, they stopped and switched to a different style when forced to use one saber. My belief is that it is because Niman wasn't originally intended to be a single saber style as the Jedi tried to make it out to be.

 

In order for Niman to be really effective, you need to master it. That's one reason why Obi Wan started focusing on Soresu. The other reason being that Darth Maul exploited the weaknesses of Ataru against Qui Gon. Cin Drallig was a master of Niman, and he claimed it would take 10 years of dedicated study to master Niman. Niman style tried to balance the imperfections of the previous styles before it. It also incorporated force powers into the mix. In fact, looking at this, you could say that the Sith Inquisitor/Sorcerer and Jedi Consular/Sage are Niman users while the Sith Assassin/Jed Shadow are Jar Kai users.

 

Niman, when used properly and masterfully, doesn't leave the user imbalanced and open for counterattacks like Form V can some times, but also it isn't so defense heavy that it doesn't allow for any offense like Soresu. When employed masterfully and properly, a Niman Master can handle pretty much anything that comes at him. The problem is that at the start of the Clone Wars, there were many users of Niman style, but very few who had taken the time to dedicate themselves to mastering it.

[Wolfninjajedi]

There's also this big issue people over look according to the pre-Battle of Geonosis.

 

Uhh...the Jedi were vastly outnumbered, there were only 200 Jedi compared to the 2 million droids there. Not saying all 2 million were deployed in the arena battle, but even still, the Jedi were vastly outnumbered.

 

So I don't see why people see it as a standard for how ineffective Niman is, the Jedi were just completely overwhelmed.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[mynxvablid]

There's also this big issue people over look according to the pre-Battle of Geonosis.

 

Uhh...the Jedi were vastly outnumbered, there were only 200 Jedi compared to the 2 million droids there. Not saying all 2 million were deployed in the arena battle, but even still, the Jedi were vastly outnumbered.

 

So I don't see why people see it as a standard for how ineffective Niman is, the Jedi were just completely overwhelmed.

 

Yes, the Jedi were outnumbered there. However, among the ones who survived the coliseum, most of them used a form other than Niman. Of the ones who died, a vast majority were Niman users.

[gblXsw]

Jar'Kai specifically designates fighting with two sabers, using a double bladed saber is not Jar'kai.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Yes, the Jedi were outnumbered there. However, among the ones who survived the coliseum, most of them used a form other than Niman. Of the ones who died, a vast majority were Niman users.

 

Right, but that doesn't mean Niman is ineffective. It's ineffective against a vastly numerical force sure, but not as a whole.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[TalonVII]

Well we all seem to forget the greatest practitioner of Form VI. Exar Kun. Nobody ever said he was a slouch with a lightsaber.

[Aurbere]

Well I don't think Sidious' preferred style has been confirmed in any source, personally I assume its Juyo. Not that the OP doesn't have a point, but if he wants an example he should be citing Exar Kun and Darth Maul.

 

Considering he takes Juyo stances several times in Revenge of the Sith, that was my assumption as well.

[TalonVII]

Well I don't think Sidious' preferred style has been confirmed in any source, personally I assume its Juyo. Not that the OP doesn't have a point, but if he wants an example he should be citing Exar Kun and Darth Maul.

 

I thought maul fought in Juyo, not Nemian?

[Beniboybling]

I thought maul fought in Juyo, not Nemian?

He utilitises both, Juyo is his primary form but he also uses Niman likely to add further variety, incorporating other styles and altogether building on his skill. In general I assume he manner of fighting was close to Exar Kun. Edited January 13, 2015 by Beniboybling

[TalonVII]

He utilitises both, Juyo is his primary form but he also uses Niman likely to add further variety, incorporating other styles and altogether building on his skill. In general I assume he manner of fighting was close to Exar Kun.

 

I see and that makes sense since Nemian was so balanced it would make sense to use with a double bladed saber. I also remember using it to great effect when playing KOTOR 2 and being a watchman. Didn't give much, but it was balanced enough it helped by just being so balanced.