What I think should be done about the concerns about the DPS drop....

[LordArtemis]

...Yes, I am sorry it is another thread. But this is a bit different from the others. I am not proposing they change what they are doing. Instead, I am going to propose how I think they should handle current concerns.

 

First, it is obvious they are likely making changes that will effect everyone in some way, not all of them likely to be well received. Reducing the effectiveness of roles (reduction of DPS for DPS, healing strength for healers, agro control for tanks) is rarely viewed as a positive move, so any changes made of this nature would be likely to get negative feedback from the playerbase (we can already confirm DPS changes, healing and agro changes may follow).

 

This is how I think Bioware should handle this moving forward.

1) Better communication moving forward on this issue.

 

I think that, in this particular case, platitudes and vague statements are not going to cut it. This could end up having a negative impact on the view of this expansion, and Bioware does not need to make that mistake before they even get out of the gate.

 

They need to give better specifics, every proposed change to current levels for any role that they intend to reduce, and why the reduction is taking place. It is best, IMO, to provide solid numbers if possible, and back those numbers up with the reason they need to be mitigated.

 

This should be the focus of the next stream IMO.

 

2) A breakdown of the plans to adjust the world, either intended or willing, and what the scope of those changes would likely be.

 

They have made some comments about adjusting the world 1-50, and perhaps looking at NM. The intended areas of possible concern with respect to this change should be better illustrated IMO, and perhaps the possible changes that could occur laid out so the playerbase can and will understand what is coming, or is likely to come.

 

IMO this should be in the form of a specific blog that references how Bioware feels this may impact the world, where, and what they believe they will do, or what needs to be done if any issues arise.

 

3) Disciplines needs some positive focus.

 

IMO most of the statements and information released for disciplines so far has not been very informative and has invited negative speculation and conclusions as a result. The proposed system was presented, IMO, as something that would provide little change to the core abilities themselves, but it is obvious that many of the abilities we are used to are changing, in some cases in rather dramatic ways, while others are no longer present.

 

This is more than simply something that requires a bit of adjustment. This is starting to look like a complete redesign of our abilities. That is a rather drastic change.

 

I think, in this case, a side by side would be beneficial. Demonstrate the current AC spec compared to the new AC spec as it currently stands, to give the community a clear view on what to expect. A blog may work in this case, as long as it has pictures to illustrate the changes.

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Update: Eric Musco has posted in the forums that there is a set of upcoming streams that will deal with all of the changes to classes in detail.

 

Source

Edited November 4, 2014 by LordArtemis

[DawnAskham]

I agree their messaging sucks, these slow drip teaser streams are leaving too much in the air, leading to more speculation and negativism, especially this close to launch.

 

They really need to get their messaging straight and start spending quality time with the player base providing solid details, taking hard Q&A, and letting people on the PTS share their experiences.

[LordArtemis]

I agree their messaging sucks, these slow drip teaser streams are leaving too much in the air, leading to more speculation and negativism, especially this close to launch.

 

They really need to get their messaging straight and start spending quality time with the player base providing solid details, taking hard Q&A, and letting people on the PTS share their experiences.

 

Absolutely. I find it odd that they went with a closed PTS, but they are making that bad situation (IMO) worse by giving vague answers to serious questions.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Agreed. It didn't help that they said when you login on launch day your 55 characters will be less powerful. That was enough to sound the alarm for the folks who've worked hard to get where they're at.

[LyraineAlei]

On such a serious change, I'm surprised at how little they told us. I fully believe that all the class types will be shifted similarly, but if it is they should have said so.

 

Breadcrumbs to gameplay mechanic changes is begging to be badly received. I know they have to withhold some information for fun surprise stuff, but this may not be fun surprise stuff like the story of SoR.

 

And Discipline should have been more detailed, and not just bits for one class' advanced class. There should be a side-by-side comparison, and maybe a video to go along, showing what a new rotation might look like.

 

I agree with you, Artemis.

[Halinalle]

healing strength for healers, agro control for tanks

 

What if:

- healers get stronger in their role

- tanks get stronger in their role

- dps gets weaker in healing/tanking role

 

Wait a minute! That means that all that "we don't need healers/tanks to slow us down" isn't going to be true anymore.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Halinalle

[arunav]

As was stated on the Republic show recently, the sad truth is you are likely to get more and better information from fan-run sites and sources than the actual developers and community team. I'm sure we'll see more in the next few weeks.

 

As far as changes to the ACs and abilities, I doubt there is much the playerbase can do or report now to change what is coming in 3.0. If anything, there will be adjustments afterwards. Just be patient and play your character, relearn what you need to, and everything will be fine.

 

If FPs/Ops/Questing, etc. has been adjusted for less DPS (and correspondingly for tanking and healing), for example, I do think folks are complaining for a bad reason. This keeps older content viable and still fun to do, unlike classic Ops and 50 HM FPs are now.

Edited November 2, 2014 by arunav

[arunav]

What if:

- healers get stronger in their role

- tanks get stronger in their role

- dps gets weaker in healing/tanking role

 

Wait a minute! That means that all that "we don't need healers/tanks to slow us down" isn't going to be true anymore.

 

Given the fact that tanks and healers far outnumbered by DPS for endgame content, that would be very poor design.

[Exosasa]

Yay. Another thread.

[JumperPenn]

I agree there should be more communication and it should be done better but this is the same criticism I've had since launch.

 

I'd also like more information as to 'why' ie why can't other solutions work instead of this one or why is this solution better than others because I can't imagine they picked one way to do something and never looked at anything else.

 

An explanation of we need to do this because of this and that but can't do it this way or that way because of x, y, z. would be so much better than what we got for a pretty negative change and it doesn't make logical sense with a level increase/new gear level.

 

What we basically got was them glossing over that they didn't properly set dps variables/capabilities(hence the dps going beyond the range they expected/wanted) and I guess didn't make any adjustments to content when they saw it(the 55 expansion was mentioned as when this happened) so to 'fix' this now they still aren't going to adjust their range or bosses/etc they're going to lower dps. It was about 6 months after ROTH(4/2013) in The Dread War(10/2013) update where they added more gear to make us all more powerful and still they didn't see or fix this 'range issue' over a year ago?

 

So to do it now just doesn't make any sense with a level increase and gear grind for higher stats/etc at least to me.

[Halinalle]

If FPs/Ops/Questing, etc. has been adjusted for less DPS (and correspondingly for tanking and healing), for example, I do think folks are complaining for a bad reason. This keeps older content viable and still fun to do, unlike classic Ops and 50 HM FPs are now.

 

Like I mentioned in "Weird people you meet..." thread a while ago: BoI HM was tanked by Balance Shadow (he did have 40k+ hp but that shouldn't matter).

 

What we basically got was them glossing over that they didn't properly set dps variables/capabilities(hence the dps going beyond the range they expected/wanted) and I guess didn't make any adjustments to content when they saw it(the 55 expansion was mentioned as when this happened) so to 'fix' this now they still aren't going to adjust their range or bosses/etc they're going to lower dps. It was about 6 months after ROTH(4/2013) in The Dread War(10/2013) update where they added more gear to make us all more powerful and still they didn't see or fix this 'range issue' over a year ago?

 

You do realize that they are human too, right? Human is a weird species because we do mistakes sometimes.

We aren't robots. We aren't perfect. We will never be.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Halinalle

[DawnAskham]

Like I mentioned in "Weird people you meet..." thread a while ago: BoI HM was tanked by Balance Shadow (he did have 40k+ hp but that shouldn't matter). .

 

On this point, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Level 50 content WAS current, way back when, in the past. It shouldn't maintain relative difficulty today at level 55 with end-game gear, nor should level 55 content retain relative difficulty tomorrow at 60.

 

Character power progression is a huge part of the enjoyment for myself and others in this type of game.

 

We progress our character through levels and through horizontal gear progression at level cap, becoming more powerful, such that foes go from being damn near impossible, to highly challenging, to slightly difficult, to easy, to trivial.

 

We enjoy overcoming the most difficult challenges while they are current and fresh, but also expect to be able to 'go back in time' so to speak and run old content solo, duo, less than full group, no tanks or heals, or whatever and find it trivial.

 

What next, reduce all power across the board so that heroics on Alderaan are challenging to 60s as well? I mean we can't let old content become trivial now, can we?

[Alssaran]

I still don't understand what the big issue is. So, they are adjusting DPS/Heal/Aggro to a new level. What's the big deal?

 

I mean, seriously: What's the issue?

We have 10+ threads talking about how this is a bad thing. Arguments range from "Buying back our power" to "Oh, how will the current 55 content figure in to this. Will we be able to do it?".

 

Guys, they are adjusting DPS/Heal/Tank so that the current content won't be too easy. It will still be doable with the average level 60 gear. It won't become impossible just because the DPS is adjusted. They are looking into every single FP, and most likely, tweak the DPS that is needed accordingly. They're bringing the game to a level where the daily area is still soloable with ease, but the Ops is still not soloable.

 

I agree with the person who said that interrupts are another matter. The game is build around fast interrupt, and we'll have to see how that plays out. But for the adjustment: Can't people chill out and wait for the actual thing? Do you seriously think Bioware will make the current content impossible to handle? Do you think this company, even remotely, is stupid enough to do that? Now, don't come with any previous mistakes Bioware made. Do you really believe that anyone would say: "Guys, the content is impossible now. Release it?" "Yes.".

 

I support the DPS/Heal/Tank adjustment. The Ops (even from 55) shouldn't be soloable at all. For me, that killed the group gameplay in WoW. Many people went to ICC/Ulduar/Sunwell alone to farm the gear they wanted, and teamplay was of no issue there. I really appreciate it that Bioware wants to counter this phenomenon.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Nothing needs to be done. This isn't going to be as big an issue people think it is.

[Halinalle]

Level 50 content WAS current, way back when, in the past. It shouldn't maintain relative difficulty today at level 55 with end-game gear, nor should level 55 content retain relative difficulty tomorrow at 60.

 

I don't remember seeing this anywhere. Where do you get your info?

 

You want to roflstomp NiM DF/DP in 3.0? Upgrade to 198s and you can do it.

 

Nothing needs to be done. This isn't going to be as big an issue people think it is.

 

Only possible explanation I can think of is that they are just trolling us. Nobody can be that stupid, right?

Edited November 2, 2014 by Halinalle

[Andryah]

...Yes, I am sorry it is another thread. But this is a bit different from the others.... /snip to save precious electrons on the internet (no disrespect to LA here) ......

 

I have a better idea ----> Stop complaining about every change they make and stop pretending that individual players know better then an MMO company working to please and entertain 1million+ players.

 

Anything done by an MMO company (no matter how trivial or how significant) will please a fraction of the community, anger a fraction of the community, and will be unimportant nonsense to a fraction of the community. A more productive forum dramatic performance IMO would be to forum debate the actual fraction breakdown of the community as to where it falls on any given change. Personally, I think about 10% of the players will hate the adjustment to DPS, 10% will love it and think it's better then sliced bread, and the other 80% (who by the way never visit the forums to share their thoughts) won't give a rat's blow hole about it.... they will embrace, adapt and move on. Why? Because this MMO, any MMO, is much more then any single facet of parameter of it's design.

[Andryah]

Nothing needs to be done. This isn't going to be as big an issue people think it is.

 

Reno wins the thread right here.

[DawnAskham]

I don't remember seeing this anywhere. Where do you get your info?

 

You want to roflstomp NiM DF/DP in 3.0? Upgrade to 198s and you can do it.

 

 

I got it from your example of why they needed to keep old content current, where you seemed to have issues with a level 55 sage in I assume 180+ gear tanking a boss in a level 50 HM, as though this was somehow a terrible affront to the integrity of the game.

 

And the rest of you are missing the point some of us have (not the 'I just wanna see BIG numbers' types), and that is old content is old.

 

Leave it as it is and focus on level 60 content.

 

Adjust the power curve if needed to keep growth at the top in check, but don't do it in such a way that current content in current gear becomes more difficult post 3.0.

 

Doing so just smacks of trying to prevent old content from becoming irrelevant at 3.0 in an effort to keep players occupied running the same content they have been doing for the past year.

 

The Dread Masters are done, DF / DP is done, put a fork in them and let them go the way of EV / KP / EC.

 

It is time to move on and focus on delivering quality challenging fresh content at 60, not trying to keep level 55 content relevant.

Edited November 2, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Alssaran]

It is time to move on and focus on delivering quality challenging fresh content at 60, not trying to keep level 55 content relevant.

 

You know that they are propably doing this to prevent people from getting the Nightmare mounts/rewards for free when 3.0 hits, right? Not to force us to go back to those Ops every single week. We'll get new FP's and Ops right after release...

 

That's the reason I support this. Many people earned those mounts and rewards through dedicated raiding and constant trying. They deserve them to stay rare. Not be free stuff post 3.0. That's what has killed most "Ah!" moments in WoW. The rewards you earned back in the WotLK and BC days were worth less because everyone was able to get them for free and alone by themselves.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Alssaran

[Dras_Keto]

Level 50 content WAS current, way back when, in the past. It shouldn't maintain relative difficulty today at level 55 with end-game gear, nor should level 55 content retain relative difficulty tomorrow at 60.

 

But if they did that, they wouldnt be able to constantly recycle content.

 

2.0 came out and we got two ops, four hardmode flashpoints and a planet. In reality, it was only the planet and one operation. The rest was recycled.

 

Galactic starfighter, actually original, but a niche area of interest. Mostly abandoned except for in spurts with Conquest.

 

The Conquest system. Housing is new, but the ENTIRE system outside of that is rehashing the entire game.

 

3.0? Supposedly four hardmode flashpoints, two planets and an operation? Well, the four flashpoints are the same exact crap that everyone is already bored to tears of with the Forged Alliances storyline, the raid will be new, and the planets, but now we apparently also have to keep grinding the Dreads which has been our only option for more than a year now.

 

Recycle, Recycle, Recycle. Making new stuff costs money.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Dras_Keto

[Alssaran]

but now we apparently also have to keep grinding the Dreads which has been our only option for more than a year now.

 

We don't even know that. At all. All we know is that there will be an adjustment. The exact reasons are still a mystery. We don't know if recycling the content is the reason. Eric said on multiple ocassions that they are aware of the current gap in raiding. Which means they will propably try to not make it worse.

[tdmaha]

Yeah it doesnt matter how much info they release. Those creating petitions with 3 signatures, those requesting refunds, those claiming its taking away their progress will continue to complain no matter what they say. This is just the new doom and gloom, hater talking point thats caught some legs and now we stuck listening and watching them post countless pointless threads about it.

 

Good thing bioware like every other Dev knows these complainers are the minority and will not cater to their baseless complaints.

[Halinalle]

Adjust the power curve if needed to keep growth at the top in check, but don't do it in such a way that current content in current gear becomes more difficult post 3.0.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing. I want more challenge.

 

Advanced class: Shadow

Spec: KC

Gear: Mostly 156 with 146 4-piece set bonus, some 162 pieces, Veracity implants/earpiece, level 55 shield amp relic

 

Makeb: yawn fest

CZ: yawn fest

Oricon: yawn fest

 

What do you think will happen when I get better gear in 3.0?

I still remember the time I had to use healer companion to complete Area 2+ on Section X.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Halinalle

[Dras_Keto]

We don't even know that. At all. All we know is that there will be an adjustment. The exact reasons are still a mystery. We don't know if recycling the content is the reason. Eric said on multiple ocassions that they are aware of the current gap in raiding. Which means they will propably try to not make it worse.

 

I think thats a little naive. Content recycling has been the reason for so much so far, that it would absurd not to think its the reason for this too.

[Dras_Keto]

You say that like it's a bad thing. I want more challenge.

 

You dont agree that charging people for an expansion and then sending them back to do the exact same things they were doing before only with arbitrarily increased difficulty is somewhat lame?