Holding Threat is a major issue even when mob has the taunt debuff on them

[dvrocc]

Hi and thanks for at least reading this. My issue is a bit confusing and not really sure if it is me or something causing me to not have enough threat while engaging several mobs, let me explain a bit.

 

When i am engaging mobs whether it is single or multiple mobs i cant seem to keep them on me even though i have my Ion dots, the issue i seem to have is even though i will taunt a mob they still attack another party members even though the taunt debuff is on the mob counting down, is this server lag possibly?

 

I hit up dulfy and got the shield spec and got my rotation in order but I can't seem to keep mobs on me, this has been going on some time, i really figured it was my rotation and/or gear but it doesn't explain how the mob can go and attack other party member with the taunt debuff on the mob.

 

 

Any ideas? server lag? some one being a troll in group? should I change up my rotation ?

[koruptdsaiyajin]

Your Taunt should be used after the fourth global CD not at the beginning the reason youre losing agro is because you are using taunt too early. The skill gives you the highest threat + 10%, but if you use it on the second or third GCD you are wasting it. The DPS will bot be using their THreat drops before their 4 GCD. Use your high threat generators early in your rotation. use your sticky grenade and flame sweep. use the jet charge, and rocket punch. I think you problem is using your taunt too soon, try using it later, I think you will find it works better

[dvrocc]

I only use my taunt when the single mob gets peeled off of me and when it turns away from me is when i pop my single mob taunt, the AOE taunt i hardly use unless i am pulling a large group and its a corner pull, the issues I am having is when the mob gets pulled off me and I cast taunt the mob turns from me 3 seconds later to another heading for the player pulling agro and the taunt debuff is still on the mob/boss .

[Methoxa]

As a tank you should get used to use a taunt roatation especially early in the fight. Meaning that using taunt + masstaunt on cd is prior. Whether you pull with a taunt or not depends on your dps, in some raids dps get the first hit on a boss, then you need to taunt immedeately. Your first taunt should be used within the first three gcd's. This depends a little on experience, you have to anticipate when taunting becomes necessary. Use your first taunt BEFORE someone gets aggro. The second taunt, if you used single taunt first, it is your masstaunt. Yes you use masstaunt even in single target fights. Use your masstaunt whenever the tauntdebuff on the boss of your first taunt is about to wear off. Now single taunt has abt 9 seconds until its useable. So between your second taunt and your third taunt there is gonna be a gap of 3 seconds where the boss wont have a taunt debuff. You either generate enough threat so no dps pulls aggro or you can have a cotank taunt during this window. But mostly 2 good used taunts will be enough.

 

me to not have enough threat while engaging several mobs

 

Happens to every tank, jump in aoe like hell when you see the first mobs going for a dps use masstaunt.

 

, the issue i seem to have is even though i will taunt a mob they still attack another party members even though the taunt debuff is on the mob counting down

 

#1 There is something called "Tauntdelay". When you use taunt the boss need abt 1-2 seconds to react.

#2 There are bosses who change targets randomly and a taunt wont change that

#3 A dps taunts the boss

#4 You died

#5 You used Threat drop

 

Your Taunt should be used after the fourth global CD not at the beginning the reason youre losing agro is because you are using taunt too early

 

Its not true, if you loose aggro on a boss before your fourth GCD its kinda too late to taunt. Your first taunt is there to make sure the boss attacks you, your second taunt is there to maximize your aggro. When your taunt the boss before your first GCD you generate 13,7 threat when you taunt the boss after your fourth GCD you generate abt 800 threat. Your second taunt however generates something like 3k threat. Being smart and bursting the boss after the second taunt and not after the first will make sure you'll have aggro. You can always "waste" your first taunt, the second taunt is what counts because after it you have to tank w/o taunt for three seconds. If you waste your first taunt your second taunt will generate 1,3 threat from your first taunt, if you didnt waste it it will generate 80 threat from your first taunt. So the difference is 78 Threat which is less then an auto attack's threat.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Methoxa

[JouerTue]

As a tank you should get used to use a taunt roatation especially early in the fight. Meaning that using taunt + masstaunt on cd is prior. Whether you pull with a taunt or not depends on your dps, in some raids dps get the first hit on a boss, then you need to taunt immedeately. Your first taunt should be used within the first three gcd's. This depends a little on experience, you have to anticipate when taunting becomes necessary. Use your first taunt BEFORE someone gets aggro.

 

if you loose aggro on a boss before your fourth GCD its kinda too late to taunt. When your taunt the boss before your first GCD you generate 13,7 threat when you taunt the boss after your fourth GCD you generate abt 800 threat.

 

edited: this is good for nim ops, but if

you storm in, use your two procs on explosive surge, your pulse cannon then keep going with shockstrike, high impact, energy blast, use battle focus to increase your crit and so threat via more damage, keep spamming explosive surge for multiple mobs pulls, it should be enough to hold any trash pull.

 

energy blast and shoulder cannon are out of global cooldown,so they don't really fit in a ''rotation'' just use them on cd

 

vanguard is one of the easiest tanks to hold aggro with.. do you click? keybinding raises your attacks per minute ratio so damage and so threat.

guard a dps, pull first and don't be shy on offensive cooldowns, you can take away from your bar fullauto, use stuns if needed.

 

taunt works putting you ahead on the mob's threat table of a 10% in melee range and 30% on the distance.

opening with taunt is useless because 10%-30% of 0 is 0. same as taunting a mob but not applying any damage on it in those 6 seconds, since a dps focusing it, will be ahead again in the end.

 

a dps can deal with a weak or a strong, same a healer, and if they don't, they need to improve aswell.

hold the most dangerous mob( one with aoe cleaves or casts to be interupted, or dealing big damage) and as much weaks as you can, you can switch your target if needed, VG is aoe strong, so if you target a strong who turned on a dps, you won't fall too behind on the boss's table. keep trying

Edited November 3, 2014 by JouerTue

[Loc_n_lol]

I cast taunt the mob turns from me 3 seconds later to another heading for the player pulling agro and the taunt debuff is still on the mob/boss .

This is impossible unless the other player is taunting off you, or it's a scripted target swap.

[Torvai]

this is all wrong^^

It's not. He's talking tanking in general. Also the big difference here is, he talks about tanking capable dps, (where I've no idea where he knows them from, certainly not from his guild ) in NiM ops, you're talking about tanking trash.

 

And it's a fact that no tank, no matter how good s/he is, can hold aggro without taunts against good dps.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Torvai

[TACeMossie]

this is all wrong^^

you storm in, use your two procs on explosive surge, your pulse cannon then keep going with shockstrike, high impact, energy blast, use battle focus to increase your crit and so threat via more damage, keep spamming explosive surge for multiple mobs pulls. energy blast and shoulder cannon are out of global cooldown,so they don't really fit in a ''rotation'' just use them on cd

 

vanguard is one of the easiest tanks to hold aggro with.. do you click? keybinding raises your attacks per minute ratio so damage and so threat.

guard a dps, pull first and don't be shy on offensive cooldowns, you can take away from your bar fullauto, use stuns if needed.

 

taunt works putting you ahead on the mob's threat table of a 10% in melee range and 30% on the distance.

opening with taunt is useless because 10%-30% of 0 is 0. same as taunting a mob but not applying any damage on it in those 6 seconds, since a dps focusing it, will be ahead again in the end.

 

a dps can deal with a weak or a strong, same a healer, and if they don't, they need to improve aswell.

hold the most dangerous mob( one with aoe cleaves or casts to be interupted, or dealing big damage) and as much weaks as you can, you can switch your target if needed, VG is aoe strong, so if you target a strong who turned on a dps, you won't fall too behind on the boss's table. keep trying

 

Sorry, I dont see your Conqueror of DF + Gate Crasher titles

[JouerTue]

Sorry, I dont see your Conqueror of DF + Gate Crasher titles

 

sorry i didn't know i needed the achievments to write in this forum section.

please enlight me and feel free to put in red all the wrong things i've written while trying to help another player.

Edited November 3, 2014 by JouerTue

[Opferlamm]

Untill Level 35 Bosses are tank and spank. After that critical point bosses get scripted a lot more.

 

Often you will recognize that you loose aggro after you got pushed back. Or an add in the bossfight will turn red (going enrage) and turn away from you. This works as intended. You will see a lot aof aggroresets in the later fp.

 

There are more or less three of them.

 

Aggroreset: Usually the Boss does sth like pushing you back or going invisible...

Taunting right after the reset will make him finish his skill and return (you will see him attacking

the other person even though he is taunted but he will return to you. e.g. Revan after his pushback

casts an masterstrike on another person. Taunting up front won´t work. (Since it resets)

 

Enrage: Either adds or bosses can go enrage. Taunting will draw their attack on you once then they go enrage

again. The dogs of Mandalorian Raiders first Boss e.g. or HK47´s adds.

 

Randomskill: Some bosses (like collicoid wargames final Boss) turn around to cast sth. on another Player. Although

you never lost aggro targets target will show the other player while the boss casts the spell.

 

and last but not least:

 

Randomaggro: Works more or less like enrage without any hints. (Boarding Party - Battle Team Royales Jedi Knight)

 

 

;tldr It often might look like you lost aggro but you still got or you actually did lost aggro because you do not knew the

mechanic.

 

If the tank knows the mechanc of the boss the other players often will not even recognize the boss has a mechanic at all.

[JouerTue]

It's not. He's talking tanking in general. Also the big difference here is, he talks about tanking capable dps, (where I've no idea where he knows them from, certainly not from his guild ) in NiM ops, you're talking about tanking trash.

 

And it's a fact that no tank, no matter how good s/he is, can hold aggro without taunts against good dps.

 

i didn't see where op wrote about nim tanking:rak_02:

what i see now is that i'll stay far from this forum section

Edited November 3, 2014 by JouerTue

[TACeMossie]

sorry i didn't know i needed the achievments to write in this forum section.

please enlight me and feel free to put in red all the wrong things i've written while trying to help another player.

 

You edited out what I was going to highlight in red

 

UPDATE - read over it again, you said use the free ES's early. You're supposed to use them when running low on ammo because otherwise any other ability (besides Hammer Shots) is better

 

Anyway, unless I get put with a NiM raiding tank when I group finder on my vanguard, I end up tanking literally everything, regardless of how well they try to hold aggro. They just can't hold up to 3.8k AoE dps on trash and 4.4k dps on the boss (Im quick at respecs )

 

Its the NiM Raiders who understand this and open with a taunt, as such the mob wont bother looking at me for 6 seconds, and by then he gets AoE taunted and is back on the tank again.

 

Nothing lasts past the 12 second mark except for Bosses and those damn juggs on Korriban.

Edited November 3, 2014 by TACeMossie

[xxSHOONYxx]

Anyway, unless I get put with a NiM raiding tank when I group finder on my vanguard, I end up tanking literally everything, regardless of how well they try to hold aggro. They just can't hold up to 3.8k AoE dps on trash and 4.4k dps on the boss (Im quick at respecs )

 

Its the NiM Raiders who understand this and open with a taunt, as such the mob wont bother looking at me for 6 seconds, and by then he gets AoE taunted and is back on the tank again.

 

Nothing lasts past the 12 second mark except for Bosses and those damn juggs on Korriban.

You don't roll with stance-dancing rage jugg tanks? or Stance-dancing tactics Vanguards? Sounds like GF needs better tanks

 

And as for OP, I assume you're talking about trash stuff, in which case neural surge + pulse cannon is your friend. Don't be afraid to taunt liberally. And don't get yourself down, just keep working, some enemies have no agro table, others drop agro faster than you can build it, and other times DPS just attack the wrong people

 

As far as the taunt debuff thing, I only really notice that on enemies that (as stated above) either drop agro constantly, have no agro table, have scripted swaps (guardians of the fortress), or are named "Raptus". It happens on occasion, the best you can do is re-taunt and pray.

[dvrocc]

This is impossible unless the other player is taunting off you, or it's a scripted target swap.

I figured it was impossible also and considered Server Lag as the culprit because nothing else makes sense on how a mob with a taunt debuf will just go attack some other party member, i know being tank spec the DPS is far below DPS or healer damage.

 

I also hate it when other party members rush in and attack before I can get agro i usually let it slide a couple times but after that i let the DPS get agro and die lol

 

I am a bounty hunter powertech btw, people think I am a vanguard.

[Phesojss]

I read something here that just makes no sense to all the prior Tanking strategies put forth. Opening with a taunt (which had ALWAYS been considered a noob tanking move that generated nothing for threat) is now the NiM strategy? This makes no sense as to how 13.7 k threat was generated, as NO current threat existed, and therefore was always considered a "bad tank " move since the parsing was revealed. Has this been changed? Also how can a taunt during the 3 GCD only generate 800 threat ( that is impossible), as Storm, stock strike HIB even on my PT (Van terminology) will generate over 10 k threat before the taunt. Openimg with a shadow tank I am well over 16k ( force pull, project, slow time) before the taunt.

 

Many things said are just not making any sense, and contrary to (Van/PT tank) openers that TAC has mentioned before in threads. This whole Tank opening with taunt, needs to be elaborated on as the values and tactics given are contrary to everything I have read about Tanking to date.

[TACeMossie]

I read something here that just makes no sense to all the prior Tanking strategies put forth. Opening with a taunt (which had ALWAYS been considered a noob tanking move that generated nothing for threat) is now the NiM strategy? This makes no sense as to how 13.7 k threat was generated, as NO current threat existed, and therefore was always considered a "bad tank " move since the parsing was revealed. Has this been changed? Also how can a taunt during the 3 GCD only generate 800 threat ( that is impossible), as Storm, stock strike HIB even on my PT (Van terminology) will generate over 10 k threat before the taunt. Openimg with a shadow tank I am well over 16k ( force pull, project, slow time) before the taunt.

 

Many things said are just not making any sense, and contrary to (Van/PT tank) openers that TAC has mentioned before in threads. This whole Tank opening with taunt, needs to be elaborated on as the values and tactics given are contrary to everything I have read about Tanking to date.

 

In Nightmare mode, losing threat tends to cause wipes (e.g. Nefra turning around and beating the crap out of everyone, Tyrans dropping a simplification on a DPS instead of the tank first, and then both tanks get sent down, Calphayus hitting the raid with inevitability, and so on). There is an extreme case coming up I can't talk about where a DPS pulling aggro instantly kills everyone, for example.

In Operations, there tends to be a second tank, so they can taunt fluff for the first 30 seconds. While you shouldn't open with taunt, the second the DPS are about to start hitting you should use your first taunt (with a couple of exceptions, for example Draxus who drops threat on his primary target in the first 6-ish seconds) and your second one 6 seconds later, then get the other tank to get the third, and so on.

End result, no DPS has a chance to pull aggro until all the opening burst is gone and they'll need upwards of a billion threat to do so.

[Ryuku-sama]

I read something here that just makes no sense to all the prior Tanking strategies put forth. Opening with a taunt (which had ALWAYS been considered a noob tanking move that generated nothing for threat) is now the NiM strategy? This makes no sense as to how 13.7 k threat was generated, as NO current threat existed, and therefore was always considered a "bad tank " move since the parsing was revealed. Has this been changed? Also how can a taunt during the 3 GCD only generate 800 threat ( that is impossible), as Storm, stock strike HIB even on my PT (Van terminology) will generate over 10 k threat before the taunt. Openimg with a shadow tank I am well over 16k ( force pull, project, slow time) before the taunt.

 

Many things said are just not making any sense, and contrary to (Van/PT tank) openers that TAC has mentioned before in threads. This whole Tank opening with taunt, needs to be elaborated on as the values and tactics given are contrary to everything I have read about Tanking to date.

 

Just to explain a little more over what Kwerty said...

 

In a perfect taunt fluffing rotation without any mechanism needing your taunt for the first minute, you would go with something like this

 

MT Taunt > 6s > OT Taunt > 6s > MT AoE Taunt > 6s > OT AoE Taunt > 6s > MT Taunt > 6s > OT Taunt

 

Here you have 36s under taunt. Considering your DPS burst stopped at around 15 sec you have in a worst case scenario 30% more threat than your highest DPS while they all spent their burst. In reality, considering all high threat attack a tank will push into his rotation over the taunt fluff.... You can easily end up with a few millions threat in the first thirty seconds of the fight while your DPS haven't broken the 200k damage yet.

[TACeMossie]

Just to explain a little more over what Kwerty said...

 

In a perfect taunt fluffing rotation without any mechanism needing your taunt for the first minute, you would go with something like this

 

MT Taunt > 6s > OT Taunt > 6s > MT AoE Taunt > 6s > OT AoE Taunt > 6s > MT Taunt > 6s > OT Taunt

 

Here you have 36s under taunt. Considering your DPS burst stopped at around 15 sec you have in a worst case scenario 30% more threat than your highest DPS while they all spent their burst. In reality, considering all high threat attack a tank will push into his rotation over the taunt fluff.... You can easily end up with a few millions threat in the first thirty seconds of the fight while your DPS haven't broken the 200k damage yet.

 

And if you're really desperate to hold threat, go:

 

MT Taunt -> OT Taunt -> MT AoE Taunt -> MT Taunt -> OT Taunt -> OT AoE Taunt -> MT Taunt -> OT Taunt

 

By following that taunt rotation, there will be 3 seconds every 45 where the boss won't be taunted.

[meisterjedi]

even though coordinated 6 taunts make it impossible to loose threat on anything, that's not really the situation you should rely on, as it's not reliable, especially in random groups or fps when you don't even know your co tank if you have one. on top of that many boss mechanics prohibit such excessive taunting.

In general you can follow this sheme as a PT tank:

 

1) check if you have a concealement/deception in your group. if you do you have to use your first taunt right after their very first hit, as that usually is their stealth opener with insane crit chance. same applies to a sniper precasting orbital + ambush with a followthrough all within the first global of combat. theese openers can amount to up to over 10k dmg in the first global, so your taunt snaps a good amount of threat already to give you a nice headstart

 

2) start with jet charge (only if you have too, if it's possible to run to the boss for an imediate rocket punch, do so instead, soa, calphayus and the eyeless come to mind) or grapple,if you can't reach the boss like tyrans or council

 

3) pop explosive fuel and unload your shoulder cannon while you do your opening burst with rocket punch -> railshot -> taunt + flamethrower (even if it didn't proc yet) and use your heat blast as soon as it's ready (not durig flamethrower though).

by the time you taunt people have generated at least 10k threat, so your taunt will do some work already, especially if you try to walk a few steps back just before you taunt to increase your distance for a short period of time. this will make it much more likely that you get the 30% threat buff instead of the 10% one that only applies outside of 4m of the center of the mobs hitbox (huge bosses like dresh have you at that range automatically, where a humanoid boss usually does not)

 

4) continue on the basis of this priority:

 

heat blast

flamethrower

rocket punch

flame burst

 

and use your aoe taunt as the first is about to expire (only necessary if you missed an attack or have really good or better geared DPS in your group) you can instead wait with your aoe taunt until you loose threat if you have quick reactions. and taunt again with your single taunt as it comes off cooldown if possible.

 

5) as soon as you start to overheat use your heat cooldowns to get in more flame bursts instead of rapid shots or flame sweeps (the 2 stacks from jet charge only get used on aoe pulls)

 

6) go into the normal priority of

 

heatblast

flamethrower with proc

rocket punch

rail shot

flamethrower without proc (if you blew all your heat cooldowns already you might not be able to use that every time to prevent heat issues)

flame burst

rapid shots as needed to maintain <40 heat

 

on purely single target fights you can use death from above on cd as well and you should try to throw in a taunt every now and then if the fight mechanincs allow for it (they usually do, can't think of one that doesn't right).

even if you pull 1600+ dps as a PT tank your threat only suffices versus the best DPS if they never get into the range where 110% of the tanks aggro suffice to pull threat (unless guarded or using threat drops)

 

Note: tell your DPS to threat drop right as your aoe taunt is about to fall off

Note: you need to put 1 point into the cd reduction for flamethrower over in the Ap tree to get a reasonable amount of flamethrowers without a proc, as otherwise the internal cooldown of flame engine will be up too early and you likely already got a new proc before the cooldown ran out. (will likely go away with 3.0 as that is probably an unintended behavior that very rarely also causes some trouble if you get flame engine during your flamethrower as then only the cd will reset but the next one won't be free and channled twice as fast

Edited November 4, 2014 by meisterjedi

[Opferlamm]

I..

I am a bounty hunter powertech btw, people think I am a vanguard.

 

 

uhuh uh *snipping with fingers* I did recognize it that´s why I implied Factory and Boarding Party into my previous post. But I had to Think twice either since you didn´t mention shield tech but shield spec(ialist). That´s why most asume you are vanguard.