KTap Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 You're saying they want fights in this game to last longer than they already do? Yep, they want ttk (time to kill) to be higher! I'm fine with this higher ttk, the whole point of the thread was to discuss opinions on lowering numbers with 2 tiers of gear more than we have atm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 As long as TTK has not been affected to the point where enrage timers or mechanic timers are no longer achievable... then it doesn't matter. Which is why the damage adjustments worry me less than the other changes, and fall into the "wait and see" category. We don't have all the information here yet, unlike other changes which aren't rocket surgery to figure out from the previews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citruzz Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Not really speculation. ~75% of ~3k dps is still ~2300 dps against a level 55 target, which means closer to ~2500 dps for a level 50 target. 2500 dps is more than sufficient for Black Hole, Ilum, Section X. 2300 should still be sufficient for Oricon and Czerka. Not to mention AoEs for dailies. There is no chance in hell that the deflation in damage is 25%, so I stand behind my statement that there is no way that the dailies are going to feel the slightest bit less solo'able at level 55 and level 60 than they do now. it is a global combat change. means not only the dps got nerfed, the healthpool of every mob in pve got nerfed too. every mob has the same time to kill like before 3.0, except some raidmobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 it is a global combat change. means not only the dps got nerfed, the healthpool of every mob in pve got nerfed too. every mob has the same time to kill like before 3.0, except some raidmobs. Well, this may be the case, but to my knowledge they only specifically stated the mobs 1-50 were getting adjusted directly, the others they mentioned (in an indirect way, mind you) as they were open to making adjustments if needed. I certainly could be wrong, but that is what I gathered from the source material released so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Yep, they want ttk (time to kill) to be higher! I'm fine with this higher ttk, the whole point of the thread was to discuss opinions on lowering numbers with 2 tiers of gear more than we have atm the problem with longer TTK is the classes that are "glass cannons". their defense is taking down the opponent quickly. arbitrarily extending ttk makes them take more damage whereas a tank or melee dps can take it, a sorc/sage cant. we will just have to watch and see if it becomes a problem, if it does the devs will have to deal with it fairly quickly. all we can do is wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VitalityPrime Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Yep, they want ttk (time to kill) to be higher! I'm fine with this higher ttk, the whole point of the thread was to discuss opinions on lowering numbers with 2 tiers of gear more than we have atm I always thought TTK was a big problem here. ie. wacking someone over and over and over and over with your lightsaber seems to "take away" from the game experience. I guess that's just me though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDucky Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) I think the problem this time around is not so much the "grind" but the reason behind it. BW knocked you back 2 steps just so you could grind back those 2 steps. Getting back to where you were. Thats pretty messed up design just to keep some year old content around. Can't be getting those ultimate comms to easy now can you from old content. It rarely makes a difference when a new expansion comes out and you level up, so old content becomes easier and the new content is something to work toward completing while getting more powerful gear so your character is more powerful. I have never come across an expansion where everyone takes a nerf at the start just so you can level to be right back where you left off. It's a bit odd in a progression based game. No one runs a race just so that right at the end, you're told to go back to the halfway mark and start again. Personally, I think most of the problem comes from that VS any numbers or raiding problems. Gamers can usually over come the numbers while still not liking it but make the game have the appearance of going no where for the effort you put in. Thats a problem. 2 steps back just to take 2 steps forward. I think the problem has more to do with how it all being done VS numbers. I would offer a differ point of view on this, how about, we are running a race, but BW says :"hold on, we misjudged how AWESOME you were, how much stamina those superb athletic bodies had, and how far and how quickly you could run, so we're adding an extra 10 miles to the race, but you can drop out if you wish (stop playing of course), but for those that want, the race is still going". Personally, I'm not tired, and I intend on running those extra 10 miles Edited November 21, 2014 by DarthDucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharofxev Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Well, this may be the case, but to my knowledge they only specifically stated the mobs 1-50 were getting adjusted directly, the others they mentioned (in an indirect way, mind you) as they were open to making adjustments if needed. I certainly could be wrong, but that is what I gathered from the source material released so far. Once again Artemis and I are in agreement. (*) The above is out of their (the two in the Twitch stream) collective mouths. Now, combine that with the statement that "A 60 in 198's (future) will do the same damage as a 55 in 186's (now)" and you can understand why people (rightly) believe this is a DPS nerf and not a "stat squish". The irony is - in all likelihood - while progression raiders will be temporarily inconvenienced, the average "casual" is going to bear the full brunt of this change. (*) Cats and Dogs, living together - and ENJOYING IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTap Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 the problem with longer TTK is the classes that are "glass cannons". their defense is taking down the opponent quickly. arbitrarily extending ttk makes them take more damage whereas a tank or melee dps can take it, a sorc/sage cant. we will just have to watch and see if it becomes a problem, if it does the devs will have to deal with it fairly quickly. all we can do is wait and see. I agree to a point, but I doubt they'll make the current solo-able content not solo-able with these changes (hopefully). Like you said, we can't really do much other than wait and see at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levram Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 The irony is - in all likelihood - while progression raiders will be temporarily inconvenienced, the average "casual" is going to bear the full brunt of this change. I agree with you that the damage reduction will primarily be noticed by players as they move through the game's Level 51-55 content, assuming that they have already run that content previously and are familiar with how it felt previously. However, I don't see why casual players, who purchase the expansion, would be affected by the damage reduction any more than progression players. I'll make the assumption here that you're referring to casual players as being Level 55s geared in something between Oricon's 156s and 180 commendation gear (i.e. no HM or NM DF/DP tokens). No Operations Player If there's a casual player today who does not participate in operations and only has Oriconian 156 gear, they will easily be able to move into 168-185 gear as they level through the new planets. If they have Basic commendations, they will be able to purchase 186 gear. Story Mode Operations Player If there's a casual player today who participates in storymode operations and only has 168 token gear, they will be able to move into 192 token gear as they win rolls in the new story mode operations. Ultimate Commedation Player If there's a casual player today who grinds Ultimate commendations and is fully geared in 180 commendation gear, they will be able to move into 198 commendation gear as they grind out more Ultimate commendations in 3.0. Nightmare Progression Player If there's a top-end nightmare progression player today who is fully geared in min/max 186 gear, they will be able to move into 198 min/max token gear as they win rolls in the new hard mode operations. Conclusion All of the above players will receive a damage reduction when 3.0 launches, and they all will do more damage as they move into higher gear tiers at Level 60. If anything, the casual player moving from 156 to 186 gear (five tiers higher) or from 168 to 192 gear (four tiers higher) will see a greater increase in their relative damage output that the nightmare progression player moving from 186 to 198 gear (two tiers higher), the opposite of what you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I agree to a point, but I doubt they'll make the current solo-able content not solo-able with these changes (hopefully). Like you said, we can't really do much other than wait and see at this point Exactly right. I am not uptight about it at this point but we will have to wait and see. the true test will come when it hits subscriber beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorwen Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I agree with you that the damage reduction will primarily be noticed by players as they move through the game's Level 51-55 content, assuming that they have already run that content previously and are familiar with how it felt previously. However, I don't see why casual players, who purchase the expansion, would be affected by the damage reduction any more than progression players. I'll make the assumption here that you're referring to casual players as being Level 55s geared in something between Oricon's 156s and 180 commendation gear (i.e. no HM or NM DF/DP tokens). <snip> This is the same thing most in this thread seem to be missing. Making the assumption that people are in the top gear for that area because they are. The problem is just as many people are still in transition(likely more with the people that came back because of the 12x XP). If you are still in last rounds gear for one reason or another(gear that is perfectly fine, but not the best for those areas right now) your going to be pushed out of them with the gear change. Its going to reset any progress made and keep you grinding the same things you already have. Where you should have been able to move up in gear. People seem to want to ignore the fact that not every one is sitting in the best gear, with 25 million in the bank, and 20 characters all at level 55. And deserve to be messed over if they are not because their time and money is not as important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citruzz Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) what kind of player are you? raid to equip or equip to raid? Edited November 22, 2014 by Citruzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) what kind of player are you? raid to equip or equip to raid? Some of us can't eve get to raids. Some of the stupid requirements for tanks currently on Progenitor: 162 with set bonus for 50 HM. 168 with set bonus for 55 HM. 180 with set bonus for storymode operations (including EV/KP). Edited November 22, 2014 by Halinalle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTap Posted November 22, 2014 Author Share Posted November 22, 2014 Exactly right. I am not uptight about it at this point but we will have to wait and see. the true test will come when it hits subscriber beta. Subscriber beta! I like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 A few things here that I think are self evident. 1) Players expect to progress when level cap is raised. Even the perception of stagnation or recession is not likely to go over well with traditional MMO players. 2) The devs created this problem themselves. That does not mean they deserve to be drawn and quartered, but they did set up the game so players could reach much higher numbers than they had anticipated. 3) Balancing the game around potential hybrids probably caused most of the balance problems and perhaps some of the negative changes over the years. 4) The spec system was designed to encourage you to place points where they wanted them placed. They likely had little to no intention of allowing freedom in building your ability set, other than choosing the sets that would be available to you from your AC choice. Now that said, I think that players can forgive the lack of progression (real or imagined) if there was true improvement in the actual abilities themselves, and gameplay overall was not effected in any substantial way... ...but the real issue here is there is more going on than simply the loss of choice, again real or imagined. It is a loss of choice combined with ability function changes, loss of certain abilities to specific ACs, adjustment of mitigation/healing/DPS, etc. That is quite a bit to take in at once. This is why, though I support the idea of making adjustments to overall performance levels to come into line with their targets I think the timing was poor considering how much the current playerbase is required to stomach. Especially considering this problem was created by the devs in the first place. Perhaps it is too much at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levram Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 ...I think the timing was poor considering how much the current playerbase is required to stomach. Especially considering this problem was created by the devs in the first place. Perhaps it is too much at once. I believe the opposite. The correct time to build in the adjustment to damage levels is when the Discipline system is introduced. The purpose of the system is to make balancing the game easier so the Developers can spend more time creating content. Damage should be balanced to the Developers' target levels at the same time so the new system begins at their intended values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 The correct time is to not screw it up in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levram Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 The correct time is to not screw it up in the first place. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you were a flawless example of humanity using your godlike omnipotence to move through life mistake-free. I would rather damage be corrected for the long-term health of this game than for the problem to be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you were a flawless example of humanity using your godlike omnipotence to move through life mistake-free. I would rather damage be corrected for the long-term health of this game than for the problem to be ignored. Yes, of course, and never mind that this entire "damage is too much!" thing is making a mountain out of a molehill at best, and a complete smokescreen for their real motives at worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) Yes, of course, and never mind that this entire "damage is too much!" thing is making a mountain out of a molehill at best, and a complete smokescreen for their real motives at worst. You mean balancing damage before it balloons out of control and making sure content stays relevant? Geee....what a bunch of jerks. Edited November 23, 2014 by Arkerus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) Yes, of course, and never mind that this entire "damage is too much!" thing is making a mountain out of a molehill at best, and a complete smokescreen for their real motives at worst. It's not working properly... we all know about the "hybrid issue". Good thing they're finally getting rid of hybrids. Now if it only fixed the "I'm dps but I wanted quicker queue time!" issue... Edited November 23, 2014 by Halinalle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Hybrids bad! Damage too much! Must fix! ARGULBARGLE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoop Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I would rather damage be corrected for the long-term health of this game than for the problem to be ignored. exactly this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 exactly this Which presumes that there's actually a significant problem, and not just an excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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