Damage Dropping In 3.0

[Quraswren]

False, if they wanted to keep DF/DP around they would have just buffed DF/DP. They did this for much more larger reasons probably to address the fact that TTK has also been getting exceptionally short in PvP as well, thus they decided to kill two birds with one stone.

 

Incorrect.

 

TTK could have been solved and balanced through the new disciplines and skills.

 

Year old content is old. Nerfing everyone to keep it around is not needed in a game that is releasing a new expansion with the intended purpose of leveling up and getting out of that year old content to see new content. More than likely, the nerf was done to keep that old content around because they do not want another year with the same 2 ops only. Thsi way BW can claim, "Oh we got 2 areas for you. One new and one run into the ground."

 

Not inherently good design.

 

Makes you wonder why they tacked on leveling if they really wanted to keep everyone at 55 difficulty. I guess it does make for a better selling point.

 

But hey don't let me infringe on your fearmongering.

 

Not to worry, you wont but I will infringe on your clueless stance.

[ThirdDementor]

I don't lean too extremely in either way, but I've been wondering about how this would affect low levels. 55-60 would stay more or less the same, I imagine, but what about while leveling? If monsters, mobs, or whatever you want to call them stay at their current strength while DPS becomes lower, wouldn't that be problematic?

 

I mean, sure, those of us who are experienced and use moddable gear and play our classes correctly will likely feel no real difference. But what about the newbies?

[Zoom_VI]

Incorrect.

 

 

 

Not to worry, you wont but I will infringe on your clueless stance.

 

I like how you conveniently ignored the point about killing two birds with one stone by addressing the PvP issue.

 

You know what is also bad design? Making old content irrelevant. Ideally all operations would be relevant, but that's nearly impossible to do so they settle for keeping 4 operations viable at 60. (DF/DP + 2 new operations)

[Zoom_VI]

I don't lean too extremely in either way, but I've been wondering about how this would affect low levels. 55-60 would stay more or less the same, I imagine, but what about while leveling? If monsters, mobs, or whatever you want to call them stay at their current strength while DPS becomes lower, wouldn't that be problematic?

 

I mean, sure, those of us who are experienced and use moddable gear and play our classes correctly will likely feel no real difference. But what about the newbies?

 

They specifically mentioned that all mobs on leveling planets are being nerfed.

[DawnAskham]

False, if they wanted to keep DF/DP around they would have just buffed DF/DP. They did this for much more larger reasons probably to address the fact that TTK has also been getting exceptionally short in PvP as well, thus they decided to kill two birds with one stone.

 

But hey don't let me infringe on your fearmongering.

 

None of us know ALL the reasons for the changes nor exactly how absolute damage and / or relative damage will change, as they haven't been very forthcoming nor clear in providing details.

 

Not to mention we can't see inside their development process to understand all the various possible options to obtain their desired result (assuming they just want a flatter power curve / higher TTK in PVP), and thus we can't say for sure that from a cost / time / risk perspective the option chosen wasn't the best approach available.

 

However, we can evaluate what they say and what they do and draw reasonable conclusions.

 

IF relative damage at 55 against current level 55 content is significantly reduced and older content except DF / DP (or other 55 content) is rebalanced and DF / DP is used for level 60 progression for gear and comms, then it is reasonable to conclude part of the reason for the change is to keep certain level 55 content relevant, regardless of any other reasons.

 

IF relative damage at 55 against 55 content is similar to today, with just a 'stat squash' to flatten the power curve, and ALL older content, including DF / DP, is adjusted to maintain relative power against the new power curve, then it is reasonable to conclude keeping old content relevant was not a reason for the change.

 

And which one we will see (a stat quash or a relative power nerf) is the outstanding million dollar question.

 

I like how you conveniently ignored the point about killing two birds with one stone by addressing the PvP issue.

 

You know what is also bad design? Making old content irrelevant. Ideally all operations would be relevant, but that's nearly impossible to do so they settle for keeping 4 operations viable at 60. (DF/DP + 2 new operations)

 

Which sounds like you realize and admit that keeping DF / DP relevant IS part of their reasoning for the changes, yet for some reason you feel compelled to try and tell people saying as much that they are incorrect.

 

And on the point of keeping DF / DP relevant being a good thing, you and I - and I assume many others on either side, will have to agree to disagree.

 

Part of the joy for me in leveling up is watching my character get more powerful relative to the game, such that challenges which were nearly impossible become easier and easier over time as my character gains additional levels and gear, eventually reaching a point where the older content becomes trivial.

 

I just don't understand the desire by some to keep year old plus content relevant by reducing relative player power, as it just removes all illusion of player progression, and moves the game towards a stale static place where nothing ever changes and players just tread water instead of progress.

 

What next, making KP relevant again, making SM FPs like Boarding Party relevant, making heroics on Korriban relevant?

 

I would support and be interested in a feature being added that would let players optionally scale their power to the content, such that players could run anything in the game at the relative difficulty for which it was designed.

 

What I don't support is keeping old content relevant simply to keep a few players who can't stand the though of old content becoming trivial happy, nor to let a developer pad out content at the new level cap because they are too cheap to create new challenges.

Edited November 6, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Pagy]

Most will call it what it is. A DPS nerf to keep 2 ops that are a year old and worn out still in play as an alternate way to get comms.

so you still havent figured out that no one is forcing you to try to do nim dp/df in 3.0 yet?

 

he'll figure it out soon i hope lol

[Quraswren]

I like how you conveniently ignored the point about killing two birds with one stone by addressing the PvP issue.

 

I did so because I thought you could understand the disciples and how talent trees changed could fix your so called PVP problem as well as balance problem as well as a TTK problem you think exists.

 

You know what is also bad design? Making old content irrelevant.

 

And this is why someone needs to explain it to you. Old content is by definition - irrelevant. Year old content, coupled with a level increase should by definition in a progression based game be irrelevant (or at least for the most part besides anything other than nostalgic reasons or achievements - maybe a mount)

 

year old content forced to be relevant by nerfing everyone back down to its level is absurd design. Makes one wonder why leveling was added into the expansion at all.

 

Ideally all operations would be relevant, but that's nearly impossible to do so they settle for keeping 4 operations viable at 60. (DF/DP + 2 new operations)

 

It should be impossible to do. Ideally, in a progression based game you would progress with an expansion. You would level up, not level back up to where you were so you were.

 

"Settle"...... Sounds like the defining stance as of late.

[Pagy]

your parses dont mean diddly. the guys making the live stream(devs btw) can see exactly what performance levels are. it doesnt really matter what the numbers are, as long as the relationship to hp remains the same. it will not.

parses are everything...oh thats right you refuse to actually depend on facts and would rather sit there and kick and scream without any rational thought whatsoever.

 

I spent a year getting gear that performs x against my level 55 opponents. they are wiping that out because a few guys in full 186 gear that a vast majority of the game cant get were a little too high......

its all relative. if you performed at an 80% level of a player in 186, then you'll be 80% of a player with 198. how you dont understand this is seriously mind boggling. you cant only nerf "top players". top players will always be better than you. worse players will be worse. what on earth are you suggesting? a pop-up on players that pass 4k dps that says "please slow down or you will be removed from the instance?" Of course not.

as for communication skills...theirs are terrible..I dont think the sky is falling, but I do think they are making a mistake..and not having any sort of a discussion with their customers will only make it worse.

they had the discussion, they did a livestream and explained it. Edited November 6, 2014 by Pagy

[Halinalle]

Year old content is old. Nerfing everyone to keep it around is not needed in a game that is releasing a new expansion with the intended purpose of leveling up and getting out of that year old content to see new content.

 

Easiest way would have been to move DP/DF from level 55 to 60. But they are not doing it.

What makes you think "2 new operations = DP/DF NiM"?

[Pagy]

I'm not sure I believe that to be honest. I've got no more reason to believe that than I do BW truly made a mistake and let DPS get to high.

 

I'm more inclined to bet everyone in gear 186 and lower is taken a hit. Not just 186. Sure that was what BW used in their example but really, how many are farming NM DF/DP? So few most SWTOR gamers don't give a damn about them - so it's hard to grasp BW would balance around them.

 

I just don't buy what your selling at the moment and no one can really say otherwise at the moment from beta to shine any real light on it and BW seems to be rather hushed on it all.

would you rather nim content be too easy?

 

if few people complete it and bw still feels its too easy, then this is the change that needs to be made. of course you balance around the top end players; the last thing the game needs is 1) no challenge and 2) everyone with the best gear. then no one would play the game.

 

again, its all relative. do you think that this dmg reduction will mean the "average joe" wont be able to still do hm fps, sm/hm ops? of course they will.

 

only the top end players that parse and fine-tune dps will even notice this change. the rest of you will keep enjoying non nim content the same as you do today.

 

and ironically, none of you will be able to do nim dp at level 60 anyway, dps change or not.

[Pagy]

Easiest way would have been to move DP/DF from level 55 to 60. But they are not doing it.

What makes you think "2 new operations = DP/DF NiM"?

my personal opinion is that them adding comms to dp/df is a consequence, not a goal. dps reduction was something they wanted to do; probably to assist them with future op design.

 

they've already said that nim dp/df would now still be a challenge for dps given this reduction, and they'd make adjustments to it if they felt they needed to. also not taking into account the advantages of having 5 extra levels on the mobs in there. most people still wont be able to do it anyways as the mechanics are challenging enough.

[Quraswren]

would you rather nim content be too easy?

 

if few people complete it and bw still feels its too easy, then this is the change that needs to be made. of course you balance around the top end players; the last thing the game needs is 1) no challenge and 2) everyone with the best gear. then no one would play the game.

 

After all the years I've been playing WOW and now SWTOR and played the highest end content. I couldn't careless to be honest if it was easier. So few gamers actually do it, I'm really shocked a company puts in the time to design it. You want to talk about time vs money return. Nm ops farmers are rare. You'd have to be stupid to balance or design around them.

 

Does it need to be easier? Nah but if it was and suddenly more gamers got to try it. So be it. I'm not so jealous of gear or content I don't want others to see it or have it.

 

A carrot on a stick is fine but if you never get it or reach it, it's pointless to try. That loses gamers too.

 

if few people complete it and bw still feels its too easy, then this is the change that needs to be made. of course you balance around the top end players; the last thing the game needs is 1) no challenge and 2) everyone with the best gear. then no one would play the game.

 

Incorrect. You balance the content to fit the player. You never assume gamers will suddenly become nm gamers. Hell, even wow learned that lesson (gamers do not step up). If your NM group is finding it to easy. You adjust the NM content, you don't nerf every player so NM can be harder and all the other difficulty modes are harder as well.

 

again, its all relative. do you think that this dmg reduction will mean the "average joe" wont be able to still do hm fps, sm/hm ops? of course they will.

 

It will make it more difficult for them and if they are already having a difficult time, it's not a good change for them. You adjust the content to the gamers, you don't nerf everyone to make NM content a tad bit harder for a few and all other content harder for the average.

 

only the top end players that parse and fine-tune dps will even notice this change. the rest of you will keep enjoying non nim content the same as you do today.

 

It remains to be seen how gamers take the content and the nerf to there DPS. DF/DP will be old but gamers will want those comms so Im am interested in seeing just how much of a nerf it is and the acceptance of the gamers for it.

 

and ironically, none of you will be able to do nim dp at level 60 anyway, dps change or not.

 

Right, cause no one will want the extra ultimate comms. No one runs old, worn-out content for weekly ultimate comms - not even Nm ops farmers.... Get this: You'd be wrong on that.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Quraswren

[Pagy]

After all the years I've been playing WOW and now SWTOR and played the highest end content. I couldn't careless to be honest if it was easier. So few gamers actually do it, I'm really shocked a company puts in the time to design it. You want to talk about time vs money return. Nm ops farmers are rare. You'd have to be stupid to balance or design around them.

you haven't offered a reason, just saying the same thing over and over again.

 

the objective here is to make as many people play the game as much as possible. the difficulty tiers allow this to happen. if you dont offer incentive or a challenge at each level, the system crumbles. if the hardest content is too easy, then the game is too easy, we all have the same gear and there's no reason to play.

 

whether YOU think the top end content is too easy or difficult is irrelevant. it's bw's game. their opinion is the only one that matters here.

 

they are absolutely not designing the game around the nim players. just adjusting dps moving forward since players exceeded their expectations in nim dp/df. hell, there probably wont even be nim content at launch of 3.0.

Incorrect. You balance the content to fit the player. You never assume gamers will suddenly become nm gamers. Hell, even wow learned that lesson (gamers do not step up). If your NM group is finding it to easy. You adjust the NM content, you don't nerf every player so NM can be harder and all the other difficulty modes are harder as well.

again, you dont offer a reason. why not nerf everyone?

sure, changing nim content is an option. absolutely. it's not the only option, and obviously not the direction they wanted to take.

they can normalize out of control dps, or change hp, timers, movement mechanics...they chose dps. maybe you should go back to wow where a dev team probably 10x as robust STILL required to stat squish lol

It will make it more difficult for them and if they are already having a difficult time, it's not a good change for them. You adjust the content to the gamers, you don't nerf everyone to make NM content a tad bit harder for a few and all other content harder for the average.

what on earth are you basing this on? how do you automatically assume that hm fps will be relatively more difficult comparative to 3.0 nim content? this is a ridiculous premise.

It remains to be seen how gamers take the content and the nerf to there DPS. DF/DP will be old but gamers will want those comms so Im am interested in seeing just how much of a nerf it is and the acceptance of the gamers for it.

most wont even notice. and even more won't be able to attempt nim df/dp for another 3 years or level 65.

Right, cause no one will want the extra ultimate comms. No one runs old, worn-out content for weekly ultimate comms - not even Nm ops farmers.... Get this: You'd be wrong on that.

wanting the comms from nim dp/df is irrelevant. they wont be able to do it. they are merely adding SOMETHING for those that are able to do it because its still a challenge.

 

there are new ops, new fps; no one cares about nim dp/df and those that do wont be able to do it anyway.

[Zoom_VI]

I did so because I thought you could understand the disciples and how talent trees changed could fix your so called PVP problem as well as balance problem as well as a TTK problem you think exists.

 

No it wouldn't. TTK in PvP is a product of DPS versus HP. The only way they could address TTK without downscaling DPS output would be to drastically increase the amount of endurance on PvP gear. Which would be bad since it would make PvP gear superior to equal rating PvE gear for PvE content. Not to mention it throws the whole idea of stat budgets out the window.

[Savej]

I like how you conveniently ignored the point about killing two birds with one stone by addressing the PvP issue.

 

You know what is also bad design? Making old content irrelevant. Ideally all operations would be relevant, but that's nearly impossible to do so they settle for keeping 4 operations viable at 60. (DF/DP + 2 new operations)

 

pvp will take a hit if relative dps goes down and nothing else changes. That's my biggest concern with the dps nerf, personally. That may be mitigated by the aoe buffs some classes are getting (reading reddit has had me facepalming) but that's another topic.

[Pagy]

No it wouldn't. TTK in PvP is a product of DPS versus HP. The only way they could address TTK without downscaling DPS output would be to drastically increase the amount of endurance on PvP gear. Which would be bad since it would make PvP gear superior to equal rating PvE gear for PvE content. Not to mention it throws the whole idea of stat budgets out the window.

+1

 

or adjust expertise mechanics which would be a complete and utter pain and catastrophe.

[Lotharofxev]

they are absolutely not designing the game around the nim players

.

 

just adjusting dps moving forward since players exceeded their expectations in nim dp/df.

 

Please note - the same person wrote those two lines - BACK TO BACK.

 

I tell ya, sometimes you can't make this stuff up.

[Pagy]

i happen to think "game design" incorporates more than dps totals but i'm not surprised, given your irrational chicken-little tears and cries of terror, that you think otherwise lol

[Zoom_VI]

+1

 

or adjust expertise mechanics which would be a complete and utter pain and catastrophe.

 

the problem with adjusting expertise is how it plays out. See the issue with TTK in PvP is in how fast people can be bursted. 1 to 1 there are a slew of specs that can kill a 2018 target in under 7.5 seconds. Two dps in tandem can ften zero a target in a single hardstun. However on the other hand in situations where smart guard swapping, CC, and good peeling occurs, then TTK is actually extremely high.

 

This means to fix PvP TTK they need to increase TTK for less coordinated situations without making it so you have endless stalemates in ranked. This is why expertise cannot be adjusted since it would affect sustained TTK whereas endurance increases doesn't really affect sustained situations as much as regstar ones.

[Quraswren]

.

 

 

 

Please note - the same person wrote those two lines - BACK TO BACK.

 

I tell ya, sometimes you can't make this stuff up.

 

Its almost as if they believe the lie and that DPS was too high and BW had no clue it was happening even though, they designed it with their metrics.

 

and given the relatively small group of gamers that this drastically high DPS was occurring with, the mass majority of the rest of SWTOR gamers must be nerfed in some capacity and everyone at 60 brought back to level 55 power levels so DF/DP being kept around just so this nerf can seem more plausible makes you wonder just how much planning this expansion really got in the content area.

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

I sincerely hope this is just paranoia of the new, and not a reality.

 

If 3.0 is the great nurf, I can see it because developers were lazy and did not want to create ops and materials in sufficient quantity to provide challenge for the new level 60 generation, sad that we will have to do the same over done over and over DP,DF, TFB and S&V with gear that is now crappy when it used to be good and then have to grind for new higher level gear to approach what we had already earned; I really hope this is not the case for it would be essentially a slap on the face of this game's customers.

 

It would be really pathetic for developers to make DF,DP, TFB and S&V challenging to level 60s through the great skill nurf, talking about being cheesy...

 

Sue

[Arkerus]

Mmm...

 

I sincerely hope this is just paranoia of the new, and not a reality.

 

If 3.0 is the great nurf, I can see it because developers were lazy and did not want to create ops and materials in sufficient quantity to provide challenge for the new level 60 generation, sad that we will have to do the same over done over and over DP,DF, TFB and S&V with gear that is now crappy when it used to be good and then have to grind for new higher level gear to approach what we had already earned; I really hope this is not the case for it would be essentially a slap on the face of this game's customers.

 

It would be really pathetic for developers to make DF,DP, TFB and S&V challenging to level 60s through the great skill nurf, talking about being cheesy...

 

Sue

 

You used all the memes...

 

Developers are lazy/Bioware Lazy

Complete disregard for game design philosophy and mechanics

"slap in the face"

 

These posts are fun to read.

[Halinalle]

Players wanting bigger number?

Guys, do you even know what caused stat inflation in WoW? Exactly.

[Quraswren]

Mmm...

 

I sincerely hope this is just paranoia of the new, and not a reality.

 

If 3.0 is the great nurf, I can see it because developers were lazy and did not want to create ops and materials in sufficient quantity to provide challenge for the new level 60 generation, sad that we will have to do the same over done over and over DP,DF, TFB and S&V with gear that is now crappy when it used to be good and then have to grind for new higher level gear to approach what we had already earned; I really hope this is not the case for it would be essentially a slap on the face of this game's customers.

 

I think you got a good bead on it. You're getting nerfed so DF/DP can stay around as content to get comm gear in at 60 and DF/DP still stay somewhat difficult for all. they do not want something similar to a level 55 running 50 content. They do not want a level 60 in high end gear, trashing 55 content. SO, they nerf progression and level 60 gear will be relative to 55 now and all past 55 gear takes the nerf to make 55 content a bit harder.

 

It would be really pathetic for developers to make DF,DP, TFB and S&V challenging to level 60s through the great skill nurf, talking about being cheesy...

 

Sue

 

It's funny, The same thing didn't happen with S&V or TFB (They must not be as important) but suddenly DF/DP 55 must be kept relevant with this level increase to 60 and 60 gear must be dropped back to 55 in power to keep that old content around.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Quraswren

[Halinalle]

SO, they nerf progression and level 60 gear

 

Progression isn't about bigger numbers.