Damage Dropping In 3.0

[alex_cpa]

We've got too many threads on this same topic. I've posted in a different one here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7780398&posted=1#post7780398

 

Note: My gear ratings listed are educated guesses.

 

In short, HM op gear at 60 level (198 rating) will be comparable to NiM gear at 55 level (186 rating). It will be easier to get HM op gear at level 60 than to currently get NiM op gear at level 55. In addition, 198 non-set bonus gear is likely to be purchaseable with ultimate comms.

[BuriDogshin]

I'm happy for fresh content, i could care less if my relative power levels are dropping or rising as long as the combat works.

Agreed. I'm not averse to playing a game that challenges me as long as success can be obtained with reasonable effort. Numbers are for tuning your game play, they are not the game.

 

"You got this. You got this.

You're a Sorcerer. You're a lightning-throwing Sorcerer.

You're a hero. And you look great."

-- not from a commercial for a mobile game involving clans.

[Pagy]

they said a few...that does NOT mean all even in your little world

 

if a few at the top were exceeding maximums under specific circumstances, you put limits on them, you dont nerf everyone across the board. if you balance the game based on the few at the top, soon those few will be the customers you have left.

 

I care because their "fix" will affect everyone, not just the few they were targeting.

 

this could all be resolved by some actual responses from the devs. their piss poor communication skills are what are driving this discussion.

you should read a parse or two; its like you have no idea what dps classes even do currently.

 

i dont think their communication skills are bad, i just think people like yourself would rather run around with your arms flailing screaming that the sky is falling instead of seeing the topic for what it really is.

[BuriDogshin]

Stop being deliberately obtuse. Grow up and engage in a dialogue instead of telling people "go away". Cuz I got news for ya, enough people take your advice? Especially subscribers?

 

This game is in trouble.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I am sure you understand that for any business or service, there are some customers the business or service is better off without.

 

Most of us do not want to be that customer. Yet some of us are.

[ikinai]

you should read a parse or two; its like you have no idea what dps classes even do currently.

 

i dont think their communication skills are bad, i just think people like yourself would rather run around with your arms flailing screaming that the sky is falling instead of seeing the topic for what it really is.

 

Wait? The sky is falling? Why didn't someone tell me! I'd better finish these chocolate donuts fast before I get crushed by the sky.

 

As to the issue at hand, as long as damage is relational to HP of said mobs and times are consistent with killing said enemies, it's all good. Too far in either direction and the game gets either boring or frustrating, and no one wants a boring or frustrating game. But the numbers associated to the attack and the health of the mob is irrelevant to the game itself.

[KTap]

In short, HM op gear at 60 level (198 rating) will be comparable to NiM gear at 55 level (186 rating). It will be easier to get HM op gear at level 60 than to currently get NiM op gear at level 55. In addition, 198 non-set bonus gear is likely to be purchaseable with ultimate comms.

 

Yes, but the 198 comm gear will almost certainly not be optimized like the unassembled pieces are.

 

Also, who's to say that the new hard modes aren't more difficult than current nightmare content?

[alex_cpa]

Yes, but the 198 comm gear will almost certainly not be optimized like the unassembled pieces are.

 

Also, who's to say that the new hard modes aren't more difficult than current nightmare content?

 

You are correct that it is likely that comm gear will not be optimized like unassembled pieces. However, unassmbled pieces may not be optimized either (not talking about lettered mods and junk enhancements either) due to not knowing how the new combat models (i.e. alacrity being potentially more beneficial, crit, surge and accuracy changes, etc.) are going to shake out.

 

That said, there isn't much to refute your premise, since the Devs aren't saying much about this past their initial statements on the Dev stream, which is unfortunate seeing we are less than 1 month away from launch of this xpac.

 

However, future 3.0 HM ops at 60 and at recommended gear ratings being harder than current NiM ops at 55 at recommended gear ratings would be difficult for most players to accept. I do believe that BW wants content to remain relevant for as long as possible without losing X% of players/customers. There is a trade off between content relevance, game difficulty, new content development, and subscriber/cartel market $ price. If that means op content overall becomes slightly harder than today (yeah that's a great non-quantitative measurement), then it will depend on how the endgame op players react that will motivate BW to make changes (or not make changes).

 

I'm actually more concerned that their is a sizable group of players who won't like the discipline changes and leave. The discipline system won't affect my playstyle as much because I play pure specs (more often that not) in ops runs. However, if a good potion of players running dailies, RPers, etc. with hybrids are put off by the discipline system, then dps loss will be the least of our worries. I think the dps losses will be minimal for non-HM/NiM level op raiders. I'm hoping story immersion will be enough to keep the non-op players coming back.

 

I will say that threads such as this do help the game overall because Devs are not all-knowing and concerns from players (even if those concerns don't materialize) allow Devs additional viewpoints for them to consider. Hopefully the community team is reading through these posts and giving feedback to the folks doing the "maths." And that the folks doing the "maths" are providing explanation/proof to the community team that, "Yes, we've addressed that objection like this....." or "Hey that's a valid point, we'll get the team to discuss it...."

 

I'm remaining cynically optimistic, if that's possible.

[ivanhedgehog]

That would be true if you couldn't reach the level of someone in the top x of the spec you're playing. Unfortunately for your point and fortunately for all of us wanting to play our specs at their full potential, we can. With enough practice, a brain and some understanding of this game, anyone can become a top tier player in his specs.

Thus, balancing around those who got there is a good choice. They shouldn't balance around the lowest common denominator.

 

you balance around the midpoint. the top 3 and the bottom 3 are meaningless. the people that caused this nerf had to have cleared NIM DF/DP. that is not a large group. not even close. making the game harder for the midline people, which is a very large group, is not a good idea.

[ivanhedgehog]

you should read a parse or two; its like you have no idea what dps classes even do currently.

 

i dont think their communication skills are bad, i just think people like yourself would rather run around with your arms flailing screaming that the sky is falling instead of seeing the topic for what it really is.

 

your parses dont mean diddly. the guys making the live stream(devs btw) can see exactly what performance levels are. it doesnt really matter what the numbers are, as long as the relationship to hp remains the same. it will not. I spent a year getting gear that performs x against my level 55 opponents. they are wiping that out because a few guys in full 186 gear that a vast majority of the game cant get were a little too high......

 

as for communication skills...theirs are terrible..I dont think the sky is falling, but I do think they are making a mistake..and not having any sort of a discussion with their customers will only make it worse.

[Lotharofxev]

Allow me to piggyback off of what IvantheHedgeHog said and quote myself:

 

They have the wrong people doing PR. The math and dev nerds should be kept in a cage, and only fed a banana or two when the PR folks need info.

 

To draw a parallel - the Army has a new field coming out called "Information Operations". Basically a merger of Public Relations, Civil Affairs with bits from other existing career paths. As I told the LTC in our unit, "IO is not about telling the truth sir, it's about presenting a narrative."

 

The parent company, by allowing fan run sites (Looking at you Dulfy) to be the gateway for info has done the entire playerbase a disservice. Don't get me wrong - I love Dulfy, BUT, all her info should first appear on SWTORs site - somewhere. Furthermore there should be EXTENSIVE explanations about why the changes were made and more importantly WHAT THE FUTURE looks like.

 

When the face of your company OPENS with "PLayers at 60 will do the same damage as 55s now" and you don't IMMEDIATELY caveat that with, "BUT, we're adjusting MOB health downwards, we're keeping the linear TTK the same" you raise the hackles of the non fan-boiz.

 

When the overly excited dynamic duo keep talking about DF / DP, content that is a YEAR OLD, and more specifically NiM Ops, veterans like myself think, 'Who gibes a crap about that?'. This is not my first rodeo when it comes to these games. And yeah, I know MBs are cesspools of toxicity, but without a clear, concise and re-assuring message allaying fears - well, this is what you get.

 

Finally, you never, EVER, ask or allow a question you don't already know the answer to. ESO made that mistake (in regards to 'Veteran' content) and the result was a huge PR black eye.

[Quraswren]

you balance around the midpoint. the top 3 and the bottom 3 are meaningless. the people that caused this nerf had to have cleared NIM DF/DP. that is not a large group. not even close. making the game harder for the midline people, which is a very large group, is not a good idea.

 

Very well said. the upper and lower ends are always much to small in games like this to balance around. I get NM difficulity should be difficult and most won't ever get close seeing it but you don't balance the game around that extremely small amount of gamers farming that content.

[KTap]

The parent company, by allowing fan run sites (Looking at you Dulfy) to be the gateway for info has done the entire playerbase a disservice. Don't get me wrong - I love Dulfy, BUT, all her info should first appear on SWTORs site - somewhere.

 

Couldn't agree with you more on this.

[Halinalle]

Very well said. the upper and lower ends are always much to small in games like this to balance around. I get NM difficulity should be difficult and most won't ever get close seeing it but you don't balance the game around that extremely small amount of gamers farming that content.

 

You do realize that players who "farm that content" are probably the ones that will get largest hit to their dps. More casual players (majority) will only notice small drop in dps. Lower end ("special snowflakes") who don't even use proper rotation (TK Throw as Balance Shadow?) will not notice any difference.

 

And since most Shadows/Assassins spam FW/Overload anyway, the difference in dps will be minimal.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Halinalle

[Ryuku-sama]

Couldn't agree with you more on this.

 

Eh?? All info on Dulfy is official info... I think you're confusing Dulfy with swtor_miner. The former is approved by Bioware and only write on her site official informations. The second isn't approved by Bioware and use datamined informations.

 

Sure the discipline calculator Dulfy has on her site already has all the classes informations, but she still reveal only the parts showed by the devs on streams.

[KTap]

Eh?? All info on Dulfy is official info... I think you're confusing Dulfy with swtor_miner. The former is approved by Bioware and only write on her site official informations. The second isn't approved by Bioware and use datamined informations.

 

Sure the discipline calculator Dulfy has on her site already has all the classes informations, but she still reveal only the parts showed by the devs on streams.

 

I was agreeing with you

[ivanhedgehog]

You do realize that players who "farm that content" are probably the ones that will get largest hit to their dps. More casual players (majority) will only notice small drop in dps. Lower end ("special snowflakes") who don't even use proper rotation (TK Throw as Balance Shadow?) will not notice any difference.

 

And since most Shadows/Assassins spam FW/Overload anyway, the difference in dps will be minimal.

 

if they are making a 2 teir 5 level increase change in dps..its gonna be more than you are thinking....but the amount isnt going to be the kicker..its walking into content that should be routine and getting trashed by it..very bad move. if they are stat squashing they need to make it a level change..all mobs hp going down in relation to damage. if 186 was giving too much boost, only affect 186.

[Halinalle]

if they are making a 2 teir 5 level increase change in dps..its gonna be more than you are thinking....but the amount isnt going to be the kicker..its walking into content that should be routine and getting trashed by it..very bad move. if they are stat squashing they need to make it a level change..all mobs hp going down in relation to damage. if 186 was giving too much boost, only affect 186.

 

I guess people can't still watch their stream...

 

I've heard that Twitch has sometimes some very bad issues with their service but this...

Edited November 6, 2014 by Halinalle

[tdmaha]

Wow this thread is still going? the same people crying and whining about a stat squish. This is absolutely PRICESLESS! Edited November 6, 2014 by tdmaha

[KTap]

Wow this thread is still going? What 2 or 3 weeks of the same people crying and whining about a stat squish. This is absolutely PRICESLESS!

 

10/30/2014 through 11/6/2014 = 2-3 weeks

 

[tdmaha]

10/30/2014 through 11/6/2014 = 2-3 weeks

 

 

Oh there have been so many on the same topics and the same people spamming everyone with their tears it's hard to keep track...

[Lotharofxev]

Wow this thread is still going? the same people crying and whining about a stat squish

 

This is not a stat squish. (WoW is -------------------> that a way)

 

This is a DPS nerf.

[tdmaha]

This is not a stat squish. (WoW is -------------------> that a way)

 

This is a DPS nerf.

 

Call it whatever makes you feel better. Having multiple threads, probably 100 total pages of the same people shedding tears over something so trivial is amazing. Guess the doom and gloomers gears were getting a little rusty boy have all the tears greased them up and they are moving now.

[Quraswren]

Call it whatever makes you feel better.

 

Most will call it what it is. A DPS nerf to keep 2 ops that are a year old and worn out still in play as an alternate way to get comms.

 

blah blah blah - standard internet vomit

 

This is not a stat squish and BW reason for doing it makes them look inept. DPs got too high? Really? Sounds like the metrics they used are not worth using so how can gamers expect this DPS nerf to be right when their using the same metrics? The answer to that is, you cannot.

 

The only reason this is being done is to keep gamers at level 55 power to keep DF/DP around. Thats all.

[Quraswren]

You do realize that players who "farm that content" are probably the ones that will get largest hit to their dps. More casual players (majority) will only notice small drop in dps. Lower end ("special snowflakes") who don't even use proper rotation (TK Throw as Balance Shadow?) will not notice any difference.

 

I'm not sure I believe that to be honest. I've got no more reason to believe that than I do BW truly made a mistake and let DPS get to high.

 

I'm more inclined to bet everyone in gear 186 and lower is taken a hit. Not just 186. Sure that was what BW used in their example but really, how many are farming NM DF/DP? So few most SWTOR gamers don't give a damn about them - so it's hard to grasp BW would balance around them.

 

I just don't buy what your selling at the moment and no one can really say otherwise at the moment from beta to shine any real light on it and BW seems to be rather hushed on it all.

[Zoom_VI]

The only reason this is being done is to keep gamers at level 55 power to keep DF/DP around. Thats all.

 

False, if they wanted to keep DF/DP around they would have just buffed DF/DP. They did this for much more larger reasons probably to address the fact that TTK has also been getting exceptionally short in PvP as well, thus they decided to kill two birds with one stone.

 

But hey don't let me infringe on your fearmongering.