Damage Dropping In 3.0

[Icebergy]

This happens in every expansion in every MMO. Why is this news to people?

[Altheran]

I have mixed feelings.

 

In one hand I think the pace in PvP (TTK) is mostly right (DPS vs DPS). This will make the fights longer as player HP won't change at 55. May be too slow.

 

In the other hand, this pace and rather high GCD made damage spikes absolutely devastating, and left little place for counteraction. May be better.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Altheran

[KTap]

This happens in every expansion in every MMO. Why is this news to people?

 

We could very well be doing less damage in bis 198 @ level 60 than we are doing currently in 186 @ level 55.

 

I don't recall RoTHC launch very well, but I'm fairly certain we didn't lose dps once we got the new bis gear.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Really who cares if you do less damage in numbers, it means nothing.

 

The key point though is will things die the same or faster/slower? Was this mentioned at all?

 

Couple of key examples I can think of is if they aren't adjusting existing content then some existing HM / NiM content will no longer be achieveable by the majority of players who can achieve it come 3.0 launch - there will just be a bunch of enrage timers being met.

 

One would have to assume they are adjusting the raid HP etc. to compensate otherwise if they are using the new raids as a means of testing the new gear and the new gear is enough to do the new raids ( and say 180 existing won't be ) and also has the damage as the existing corresponding top gear then the new raids would be no harder in terms of HP/DR than the existing 55 raids?

 

I.e. You would need to be 60 with level 60 gear to do the current 55 bosses due to the DPS drop but also need to be 60 in level 60 gear to do the new level 60 operations making 55 and 60 more or less the same difficulty if that makes sense?

 

Ther other area is PVP - I would assume tanks etc. will get some nerf to DR/HP or something to compensate? No point reducing damage if you don't reduce tankiness also.

[JumperPenn]

This sounds stupid to me, first if you don't care about 'big numbers' then you don't care about level 60, 70, etc, second if the point is to make us grind for gear again & call that content then it doesn't make any sense to lower our output. Standard 'mmo gear grind' is to slap on X more hp to the bosses and add levels while upping gear etc so....what's the point?

 

DPS got too high? Adjust the bosses, isn't that what new levels is supposed to be about? add X million more hps to them and chase the gear.

 

I don't really care that as a dps my numbers ALWAYS go up ie that I NEED MOAR levels but if you are adding them just simple common sense says you shouldn't be making my numbers go down.

 

I'd rather mmo's focus on adding other means of content than just upping numbers which is what adding levels does when gear grind is your focus. More story, more ops with mechanics, more skill 'utilities' to suit different ways of making a class work (hybrids) etc. But that's me I'm in the minority it seems.

Edited October 31, 2014 by JumperPenn

[TACeMossie]

They mentioned during the stream that in levelling content things would generally die faster, so I guess they'll be lowering HP.

 

Yo me, it doesn't make much difference. I don't feel better about myself for doing 2k or 3k, provided that I compare myself against peers.

 

This is probably because you get the good skills earlier - e.g. Thundering Blast, Creeping Terror + Cull @26 instead of 45, 45 and 30 respectively.

 

The reduction in cool downs on cleanses and interupts will need to be adjusted for many boss encounters in operations especially hard modes. The current mechanics such as cleanses for HM nefra and interupts for the coruptors at Draxus will not be doable under the proposed changes.

This is shaping up to be a complete mechanical disaster that will resonate horribly. Bugs are one thing, they happen

what is shaping up is much worse and confidence destroying.

 

Eh, we dont cleanse half the team on Nefra anyway, and the other half are either tanks or can cleanse themself. And draxus, well you have a 1 min cooldown on interrupt for the corruptors in NiM so I see no problem with having 2 people interrupting them instead of 1. Though I wouldn't be surprised if they changed it so:

SM - 12 seconds cast

HM - 8 seconds cast

NiM - 5 seconds cast, provides 1 min insta-kill debuff upon interrupt.

Edited October 31, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Altheran]

Ther other area is PVP - I would assume tanks etc. will get some nerf to DR/HP or something to compensate? No point reducing damage if you don't reduce tankiness also.

 

As for tanks, it would make no sense. Before or after the nerf, the relative tankiness would not change. If it would take twice more time to kill a tank over a DPS before the nerf, it will still take twice as much time to be killed after the nerf.

Tanks do not get better as DPS get weaker. They're just keep doing the same job. Tanks' performance is enemy DPS' performance.

 

If one gets better when DPS drop, it's the healer.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Altheran

[Oyranos]

They always do it wrong is it...

 

I think other mmos, increase the hp so u do more damage, but the hp are balanced to be like the same as before that specific expansion...

 

its a bit hilarious... I will do less damage, also less healing at lvl 55, so I may be surprised that I do the same damage or healing as I did before I buy this expansion... lol

Edited October 31, 2014 by Oyranos

[TakexeNex]

This sounds stupid to me, first if you don't care about 'big numbers' then you don't care about level 60, 70, etc, second if the point is to make us grind for gear again & call that content then it doesn't make any sense to lower our output. Standard 'mmo gear grind' is to slap on X more hp to the bosses and add levels while upping gear etc so....what's the point?

 

DPS got too high? Adjust the bosses, isn't that what new levels is supposed to be about? add X million more hps to them and chase the gear.

 

I don't really care that as a dps my numbers ALWAYS go up ie that I NEED MOAR levels but if you are adding them just simple common sense says you shouldn't be making my numbers go down.

 

I'd rather mmo's focus on adding other means of content than just upping numbers which is what adding levels does when gear grind is your focus. More story, more ops with mechanics, more skill 'utilities' to suit different ways of making a class work (hybrids) etc. But that's me I'm in the minority it seems.

For that matter why even add any levels if the end output will be the same with a new shiney level number?

[Dras_Keto]

Level up to 60 become weaker today!

 

Evidently....

 

This happens in every expansion in every MMO. Why is this news to people?

 

No it doesnt. What you see happen in every expansion in every mmo is.... you get more powerful. Leveling up, getting better gear, only to be doing about as much as you were before or less is somewhat silly.

[DieGhostDie]

I personally don't mind the damage drop in 3.0. I understand that it sounds ridiculous that LVL 60 DPS levels will be even lower than the current iteration. I, too, am a bit ticked off because I am as prideful as you all are (for those who favor "big numbers" in an MMO). However, I really don't mind it just as long as every class performs equally with each other.

 

Not sure how my Chipotle meals will feel about the DPS drop though...

[Selenial]

I think People misunderstand him.

 

The damage is going down if you kept your gear the same and were level 55.

 

At 60, with 198 gear, fully augmented with stun your Mainstat would be over 4.2k, parsing much much much higher than the current ratings. I'm "guessing" that parses would be around 4.5k...

 

That guy was in terrible min/maxed, Unaugmented and unstimmed gear, yet he still hit similar numbers to live in terms of the abilities themselves. If you listened to the stream again you'd hear him say that In the same gear, fresh at 55 you'd see your damage drop by a small amount, it stands to reason that when you actually get the new gear, augments and stims your damage would be higher.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Selenial

[Selenial]

We could very well be doing less damage in bis 198 @ level 60 than we are doing currently in 186 @ level 55.

 

I don't recall RoTHC launch very well, but I'm fairly certain we didn't lose dps once we got the new bis gear.

 

Just for reference, we went up by about 800 dps.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I think People misunderstand him.

 

The damage is going down if you kept your gear the same and were level 55.

 

At 60, with 198 gear, fully augmented with stun your Mainstat would be over 4.2k, parsing much much much higher than the current ratings. I'm "guessing" that parses would be around 4.5k...

 

That guy was in terrible min/maxed, Unaugmented and unstimmed gear, yet he still hit similar numbers to live in terms of the abilities themselves. If you listened to the stream again you'd hear him say that In the same gear, fresh at 55 you'd see your damage drop by a small amount, it stands to reason that when you actually get the new gear, augments and stims your damage would be higher.

 

 

Not according to the Q&A dulfy put up:

 

Q: Can you explain lower damage at level 60

A: If you are at 186 gear at 55, when you login your DPS will come down. If you equip the 198 gear and be level 60, your DPS will be similar to current 55s with 186 gear.

 

Meaning top level DPS during 3.0 will be the same as top level DPS now.

 

Assuming that Q&A was from the devs and not Dulfy herself?

[KTap]

Not according to the Q&A dulfy put up:

 

 

 

Meaning top level DPS during 3.0 will be the same as top level DPS now.

 

Assuming that Q&A was from the devs and not Dulfy herself?

 

It was from the stream, I asked the question myself

 

The 2nd part of it was about the lower damage being in 186 or the new bis gear.

 

Just for reference, we went up by about 800 dps.

 

Thanks for this, that is a significant increase

Edited October 31, 2014 by KTap

[annabethchase]

This frustrates me. I was hoping for NIM mode 55's to be easy enough so the good decorations would become available. You know, like the 50 ops are today and any group can do them. Now, it sounds like they will be done no more easily than they are today.

[Selenial]

Not according to the Q&A dulfy put up:

 

Meaning top level DPS during 3.0 will be the same as top level DPS now.

 

Assuming that Q&A was from the devs and not Dulfy herself?

 

See this is the thing, he used the word Similar and everyone here thinks less.

 

You need to kind of fill in the blanks here, he said that Level 55 characters logging in for the first time will see slight DPS decreases, going up when you hit 60. His character sheet however showed the gap to be about 400 mainstat, between BiS 186 and 198. This would of course indicate a DPS increase...

 

BUT NOT A HUGE ONE.

 

Eric can correct me here, but what I see this as meaning is that level 55s will do less than now, but their level 60 incarnations will parse higher.

 

When they say "Similar numbers" that means to me that it's similar in the way that someone in 174's and someone in 186's are similar now, there's only a 200 or so dps increase.

 

It doesn't mean less, it just means we won't see the 800-1000 dps increase we saw in 2.0

[BuriDogshin]

They mentioned during the stream that in levelling content things would generally die faster, so I guess they'll be lowering HP.

I heard through a "friend of a friend who is in the closed PTS" that BW asked the testers to please level some lowbies under 3.0, so this is apparently something BW is trying to get right at launch.

Yo me, it doesn't make much difference. I don't feel better about myself for doing 2k or 3k, provided that I compare myself against peers.

Being not elite, I am not worried about that yet. My first concern will be learning the new rotations, getting used to the changed procs, and gearing up appropriately with the changes to how the stats work. I already expected my DPS/HPS to drop during the relearning/regearing period.

 

And as others have said, as long as the targets die before the team does, it's fine.

Besides, I bet more groups wipe because of a flubbed mechanic than because of a lack of "X per second."

[Dras_Keto]

Besides, I bet more groups wipe because of a flubbed mechanic than because of a lack of "X per second."

 

Yes. And a lot of mechanics are..... kill X thing in Y time or less or you all die because something goes boom in your face.

[KTap]

See this is the thing, he used the word Similar and everyone here thinks less.

 

You need to kind of fill in the blanks here, he said that Level 55 characters logging in for the first time will see slight DPS decreases, going up when you hit 60. His character sheet however showed the gap to be about 400 mainstat, between BiS 186 and 198. This would of course indicate a DPS increase...

 

BUT NOT A HUGE ONE.

 

Eric can correct me here, but what I see this as meaning is that level 55s will do less than now, but their level 60 incarnations will parse higher.

 

When they say "Similar numbers" that means to me that it's similar in the way that someone in 174's and someone in 186's are similar now, there's only a 200 or so dps increase.

 

It doesn't mean less, it just means we won't see the 800-1000 dps increase we saw in 2.0

 

They said if you are at 186 gear at 55, when you login your DPS will come down. If you equip the 198 gear and be level 60, your DPS will be similar to current 55s with 186 gear.

 

That seems pretty clear to me, and similar can be below or above, so I'm just saying that it could be less than it is now. It could also be slightly more.

 

I'm not seeing what makes you believe it will be higher though.

[Selenial]

They said if you are at 186 gear at 55, when you login your DPS will come down. If you equip the 198 gear and be level 60, your DPS will be similar to current 55s with 186 gear.

 

That seems pretty clear to me, and similar can be below or above, so I'm just saying that it could be less than it is now. It could also be slightly more.

 

I'm not seeing what makes you believe it will be higher though.

Again, filling in the blanks.

 

Eric said, specifically, that the day you log in after 3.0, your damage would drop. Rob actually says "Ehhh that's true a little bit [...] while getting used to it you'll do a little less damage" ... Does that really give you the idea that it'll drop so much that you'd need 400-500 mainstat to compensate for the decrease?

 

He never, ever, says that 60 dps would be lower than 55, all he ever says is similar.

 

Side note: Let's not forget that if certain classes stay the same, a lot of others are going to go up while they balance it, .

Edited October 31, 2014 by Selenial

[Projawa]

"Damage" is relative since they'll be balancing boss health around expected gear/dps levels.

 

Many of the 3.0 changes are theoretical in nature, meaning no one including the devs are sure how it will all turn out.

Usually someone on PTS does the "maths" as they now call it and finds outliers and balance problems (whether or not the devs act on those reports fast enough is another matter). However, since this PTS is closed and therefore has a smaller tester pool, the chances are slim that someone who knows what they're doing will discover the more glaring issues.

 

Bottom line: expect a cluster**** on release

[LordArtemis]

It's interesting, I had suggested they do this with GSF....level out the curve on top end upgrades to reduce the window between new players and pros.

 

This is not exactly that (seems like an adjustment of overall strength to widen out the DPS increase over 10 levels instead of 5) but it does show some foresight with respect to level increases in the future...unless the increase in DPS and stats is toned down, stats will climb to god like levels in no time.

 

I wonder if we will walk to this DPS decrease, in other words if all levels will see a DPS drop, or if it will just be around 55 or so to make room for 60.

 

I also wonder what mobs are they targeting during leveling for reductions in health. This could actually represent a boost for lower levels, which I would imagine will make casual PVE players happy.

 

I am just wondering if casual players (148 to 163 gear) will be effected by this as well at level 55.

[KTap]

Bottom line: expect a cluster**** on release

 

Should be entertaining at least

[ZETA_SCORPII]

I'm so f****** pissed to hear this news right now! Why did we WASTE our time grinding and gearing our current dps chars.....only to re-grind 5 more levels and countless raids.....to get the same power back that we ALREADY had? This my friends is total BS!