Damage Dropping In 3.0

[azudelphi]

You're not alone in your line of thought. Part of an MMO is partly about progression, if you remove numbers and all other arguements etc aside then what does this leave you with.

 

Story I guess, assuming the new content is written for each class that's 8 runs for the story. After that? Nothing much, you're pretty much left with a gear grind to get back (or slightly above going on some of the numbers in the thread) the level you were at pre 3.0. That's not really progression, that's simply working to regain where you were already at.

 

Kind of loses the fun part once you remove the story out of the equation.

 

Assuming that the magnitude of dps is the only number that defines progression is the flaw in that. Progression is advancing through the challenges; and 3.0 has 10 new bosses to progress through. Hopefully the sign of more ops and fps to come as well.

[lpope]

There are quite a few unknowns like new raidwide buffs, new raidwide debuffs for bosses and changes from the new discipline/utility skills systems and how they will influence the overall DPS of the classes, but i am currently unable to account for these factors.

 

That unfortunately is the real cause for all this debate. It would have been much better had BW come out from the start and said something like the target dps for optimized 186 is 3900, 192 is 4050 and 196 is 4200. Had BW explained in detail what there goals and baselines are, we'd have a much better feel for whether the dps adjustment is appropriate. But not having that information brings out people's fear and in some regard, I can't blame them for being concerned.

[Lotharofxev]

That unfortunately is the real cause for all this debate. It would have been much better had BW come out from the start and said something like the target dps for optimized 186 is 3900, 192 is 4050 and 196 is 4200. Had BW explained in detail what there goals and baselines are, we'd have a much better feel for whether the dps adjustment is appropriate. But not having that information brings out people's fear and in some regard, I can't blame them for being concerned.

 

Never you mind that the same people who got the game into this mess are supposedly going to "fix" the problem by nerfing damage.

 

Or that their best "solution" was to look at Nim OPs and enact an across the board nerf.

[Savej]

A guy named Rob Hinkle. Maybe you've heard of him? He works with Eric Musco for a company called EA. Here's the handy transcript.

 

Rob: So one of the things that we’re doing is, effectively, all the mobs from, like, level 50 on down, all the mobs that you see out in the planetary content and in your Class missions, that kind of stuff, they’re actually all going to die faster.

 

Paraphrase: With the DPS rescale, TTK on sub-level-50 mobs is decreasing.

 

Rob: Sure, so the trick with that, of course, is relative to the players doing them now, [Nightmare DF/DP] might be getting a little more difficult, and that’s true. We will make some adjustments to counteract the Class differences

 

Paraphrase: With the DPS rescale, Nim DF/DP will be getting "a little" more difficult.

 

Now, there's no quantification on what "a little" is, but its interesting to note that they only talked about Nightmare Ops getting more difficult, no discussion on normal Ops, no mention at all of Level 50 or 55 Daily areas being more difficult. The assumption that they will be is just that: An assumption. Its also an assumption to assume they'll be adjusted to keep the current TTK, but at least that assumption doesn't require that that we also assume Eric and Rob were intentionally avoiding the topic.

 

This thread and this argument isn't about 1-50. And there's far more to this game than nm (which I have no plans to ever do) - do i have to list everything else? They effectively said we're losing 5 levels worth of dps - I don't know what that means but it's not good for pvp or heroic dlyies or fps or hms at 55 or 60. How "not good" is anyone's guess. The only reason I'm still posting here is to counter bs denials and, hopefully, expedite info retrieval from a yellow poster.

[LordArtemis]

Good news. There will be a set of streams planned that will spell out the class changes in more detail.

[DawnAskham]

That unfortunately is the real cause for all this debate. It would have been much better had BW come out from the start and said something like the target dps for optimized 186 is 3900, 192 is 4050 and 196 is 4200. Had BW explained in detail what there goals and baselines are, we'd have a much better feel for whether the dps adjustment is appropriate. But not having that information brings out people's fear and in some regard, I can't blame them for being concerned.

 

Most of the concerns being expressed could have been addressed, and still could be addressed, by providing detailed information about all of the the changes, providing an open testing environment, and / or allowing those on the closed testing environment to share details about the changes.

Edited November 4, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Quraswren]

Good news. There will be a set of streams planned that will spell out the class changes in more detail.

 

I do hope we see more than just, "individual Advanced Class and the changes coming to their Disciplines in 3.0."

It's got me interested for sure.

 

I agree with you. In fact, this subject has caused me to take a step back and ponder one question: Do I really want to keep playing SWTOR? I've barely touched the game since I heard the news. Why keep going? For me the game has been about building up my dps characters, (I only dps and I do it well). If I decide to continue then I'm losing about a year's worth of progress.

If dps was getting too high then all they needed to do was make the dps increase minimal from 55-60. Wouldn't that make more sense? Why go and undo what many have worked so hard at? Isn't the point of a MMO to progress?

I've logged around 200 days of game time just from 2.0 till now, (stopped playing shortly after launch). I've put in the work, but I've lost interest since Friday and I'm not even sure if I'll continue.

 

and not just that. If DPS was the problem why nerf it the way they did. It's certainly not a stat squish given what BW is doing and it doesn't seem to be all across the board. AKA - Making our DPS like 55 but also making what was 55 seem like 50. A difference of 5 levels all across the board.

 

BW is lowering 55 gear, keeping 55 content un-adjusted and making level 60 be 55 while keeping 55 content still at 55 - just so 55 content can stay in play longer. While level 60's grind for gear in a new OPs for level 55 balanced gear - exactly where we left off 5 levels ago.

 

I don't mind losing my top end level gear, it should happen every time I level up or start the leveling process and I don't mind the numbers changing, but when it doesn't stay in equal relation to old content just so BW can keep that old content around longer.... - It looks like a warped design job at that point.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Quraswren

[Lotharofxev]

They have the wrong people doing PR. The math and dev nerds should be kept in a cage, and only fed a banana or two when the PR folks need info.

 

To draw a parallel - the Army has a new field coming out called "Information Operations". Basically a merger of Public Relations, Civil Affairs with bits from other existing career paths. As I told the LTC in our unit, "IO is not about telling the truth sir, it's about presenting a narrative."

 

The parent company, by allowing fan run sites (Looking at you Dulfy) to be the gateway for info has done the entire playerbase a disservice. Don't get me wrong - I love Dulfy, BUT, all her info should first appear on SWTORs site - somewhere. Furthermore there should be EXTENSIVE explanations about why the changes were made and more importantly WHAT THE FUTURE looks like.

 

When the face of your company OPENS with "PLayers at 60 will do the same damage as 55s now" and you don't IMMEDIATELY caveat that with, "BUT, we're adjusting MOB health downwards, we're keeping the linear TTK the same" you raise the hackles of the non fan-boiz.

 

When the overly excited dynamic duo keep talking about DF / DP, content that is a YEAR OLD, and more specifically NiM Ops, veterans like myself think, 'Who gibes a crap about that?'. This is not my first rodeo when it comes to these games. And yeah, I know MBs are cesspools of toxicity, but without a clear, concise and re-assuring message allaying fears - well, this is what you get.

 

Finally, you never, EVER, ask or allow a question you don't already know the answer to. ESO made that mistake (in regards to 'Veteran' content) and the result was a huge PR black eye.

[BuriDogshin]

Do I really want to keep playing SWTOR? I've barely touched the game since I heard the news. Why keep going? ... I've lost interest since Friday and I'm not even sure if I'll continue.

Can I haz your stuff?

[Halinalle]

BW is lowering 55 gear, keeping 55 content un-adjusted and making level 60 be 55 while keeping 55 content still at 55 - just so 55 content can stay in play longer. While level 60's grind for gear in a new OPs for level 55 balanced gear - exactly where we left off 5 levels ago.

 

In 3.0 level 55 isn't endgame anymore. You spend max few hours at level 55 before level 56 and 57 and so on.

[Quraswren]

In 3.0 level 55 isn't endgame anymore. You spend max few hours at level 55 before level 56 and 57 and so on.

 

Thats true to an extent and you will level up to 60 in every way that doesn't really matter all so you can get back to what you were at 55.

 

Thats kinda the whole "W.T.H! moment" gamers are talking about.

 

We leveled up to be 55 again? We leveled up so we could get higher gear that is like our old 55 gear. It's of course not our old 55 gear cause that gear got nerfed to be even lower. So the new 198 can be equal to the old level 55 gear.

 

You see the absurdity in it all right? Even if you're Ok with it, you see how crazy it is right, when it's not all kept relative. You leveled to 60 so you could do 55 level DPS all so DF/DP can be kept around. There not going to change DF/DP, there going to make level 60 like 55 so those Ops wont be left behind or made easier.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Quraswren

[Pagy]

i dont see an absurdity in it. they are only numbers and are relative.

 

what i do see absurdity in is your whining as if it's going to change anything.

 

3.0 is coming. stop complaining and decide whether or not you want to play this product. if not, then bye.

[Lotharofxev]

i dont see an absurdity in it. they are only numbers and are relative

.

 

First MMO?

 

And no - they are NOT "relative". (I think you do not understand that term)

 

what i do see absurdity in is your whining as if it's going to change anything.

 

People "whined" and got SIMs.

 

3

.0 is coming. stop complaining and decide whether or not you want to play this product. if not, then bye.

 

I'll "complain" if I so chose, and if I decide to spend money elsewhere, then that's my decision. Not yours.

[Halinalle]

You see the absurdity in it all right? Even if you're Ok with it, you see how crazy it is right, when it's not all kept relative. You leveled to 60 so you could do 55 level DPS all so DF/DP can be kept around. There not going to change DF/DP, there going to make level 60 like 55 so those Ops wont be left behind or made easier.

 

I see what they are doing. Rebalancing. It happens a lot especially in online games.

 

I did actually hear from the stream that if NiM DF/DP causes problems at level 55 then they have to adjust it.

If that's actually true that only NiM DF/DP could cause problems with new dps numbers then I really don't know why people are so mad about it in the first place.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Halinalle

[Pagy]

.

 

First MMO?

 

And no - they are NOT "relative". (I think you do not understand that term)

 

 

 

People "whined" and got SIMs.

 

3

 

I'll "complain" if I so chose, and if I decide to spend money elsewhere, then that's my decision. Not yours.

a mob has 1000 hitpoints

 

today, you do 100 damage per second and the mob dies in 10 seconds.

 

if you do 75 dps on a mob with 750 hp, it dies in 10 seconds.

 

yes, relative. dps is a rate that contributes to what we all care most about; time to kill.

this can be adjusted by mitigation, hitpoints or damage output. they chose dmg output.

 

so instead of sitting here crying about it, why don't you unsub, and go to a different forum where larger numbers against targets with higher hitpoints somehow makes you feel better about yourself rofl

[Lotharofxev]

if you do 75 dps on a mob with 750 hp, it dies in 10 seconds.

 

Except that from what they have said, the first part of your statement will be true, but the latter is not.

 

ROFL indeed.

[DawnAskham]

I see what they are doing. Rebalancing. It happens a lot especially in online games.

 

I did actually hear from the stream that if NiM DF/DP causes problems at level 55 then they have to adjust it.

If that's actually true that only NiM DF/DP could cause problems with new dps numbers then I really don't know why people are so mad about it in the first place.

 

I think most of the angst at this point is 'what is the target'.

 

If the target is to maintain relevant power at 55 while flattening the power curve, most people won't care (other than the 'I wants my BIG numberz' types).

 

if the target is to reduce relative power at 55 while flattening the power curve, then many people want to know exactly what reduction to expect.

 

Players will also want to understand why the developers would reduce relative player power at 55 against current level 55 content when a new expansion with new levels and new gear is dropping.

 

Without a reason which seems valid, it simply appears they are using the power curve adjustment as an excuse to try and keep old content relevant to pad out level 60.

 

And again with all the comparisons to other games doing power adjustments and re-balancing, especially that big game with an expansion dropping this month, they have all maintained relative power while changing the curve or reducing power creep.

 

I can't find one example of a game which reduced relative power for current content on the day they dropped a new expansion with new content and a new level cap.

Edited November 4, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Halinalle]

I think most of the angst at this point is 'what is the target'.

 

If the target is to maintain relevant power at 55 while flattening the power curve, most people won't care (other than the 'I wants my BIG numberz' types).

 

if the target is to reduce relative power at 55 while flattening the power curve, then many people want to know exactly what reduction to expect.

 

Why level 55?

Would make more sense to do it at level 60. By the looks of it they use level 60 to do it.

[KTap]

I think most of the angst at this point is 'what is the target'.

 

If the target is to maintain relevant power at 55 while flattening the power curve, most people won't care (other than the 'I wants my BIG numberz' types).

 

It's not about the actual number to me, more that we're going backwards.

 

We could be doing 100 dps and I wouldn't care as long as we did less than 100 dps at level 55 with 2 tiers lower of gear.

[Thoop]

Except that from what they have said, the first part of your statement will be true, but the latter is not.

 

ROFL indeed.

 

he is exactly bang on for the new areas though, if you want to avoid the level 60 content to re play the old slightly harder 55 content just so you can complain about your dps nerf for 5 levels go right ahead. The rest of are ready for the challenge for the couple hours it actually takes to hit 60 where everything will be back to normal.

[Lotharofxev]

The rest of are ready for the challenge for the couple hours it actually takes to hit 60 where everything will be back to normal

 

So you want to level 5 times (per toon) just to be where you are today?

 

/boggle

[KTap]

So you want to level 5 times (per toon) just to be where you are today?

 

/boggle

 

You forgot the part about needing the new bis gear (2 tiers above 186), to be back to where you are today.

 

We will be months away from being back to pre-patch numbers when this goes live.

Edited November 4, 2014 by KTap

[ivanhedgehog]

a mob has 1000 hitpoints

 

today, you do 100 damage per second and the mob dies in 10 seconds.

 

if you do 75 dps on a mob with 750 hp, it dies in 10 seconds.

 

yes, relative. dps is a rate that contributes to what we all care most about; time to kill.

this can be adjusted by mitigation, hitpoints or damage output. they chose dmg output.

 

so instead of sitting here crying about it, why don't you unsub, and go to a different forum where larger numbers against targets with higher hitpoints somehow makes you feel better about yourself rofl

 

except you cant seem to figure out that we will be doing 75 dps to 1000 hp mobs.....not a balance change a nerf.

 

if SOME classes were doing too much damage, any logical developer would adjust THAT class. they wouldnt kneecap ALL classes. the other non offending classes will now be doing suboptimal dps. THEY ARE NOT ADJUSTING DP/DF. they said they MIGHt if it was too hard....good luck with that, they say that they will fix a lot of things they break that never get touched.

[Quraswren]

I see what they are doing. Rebalancing. It happens a lot especially in online games.

 

If re-balancing was all that was needed, that could have been done without this pretend leveling experience. That could have been accomplished with the changes to talent trees into Disciples.

 

SImplymoving to the disciplies helpes balance the game by removing hybrids, other balance such as DPS has and can been achieved though manipulation of the talents as well as incoming gear.

 

Lowering level 55 gear and balancing level 60 gear as if it was 55, is a bit absurb to claim it's done for balance.

 

It makes a mockery of progression and the entire point of leveling. Might as well have left everyone at 55 at this point for all leveling does for you.

 

I did actually hear from the stream that if NiM DF/DP causes problems at level 55 then they have to adjust it.

If that's actually true that only NiM DF/DP could cause problems with new dps numbers then I really don't know why people are so mad about it in the first place.

 

Like I said, its more to do with how relative do things stay. It's not a true stat squish to keep numbers from going high.

 

It's not like they scaled back everything so that level 60 did the numbers of a level 30 and 55 content acted as if it were 25. Keeping a relative 5 level difference.

 

They lowered 55 gear so they could make level 60 gear the new 55 all so DF/DP can stick around for another 6 month to a year as alternate content to get comms.

 

Like I said, I refuse to believe BW was so incompetent as to let DPs get too high given how much they praise their metrics and if they did fail and their metrics did fail them, what are they using to balance now to make it better or not happen again? Thats why I just can't believe DPS was really that high. BW can't be that poorly ran.

[Thoop]

So you want to level 5 times (per toon) just to be where you are today?

 

/boggle

 

i don;t think you have have your head wrapped around what is happening with the balance pass. Player characters have to much power right now, with the new skill trees and redone abilities no one will be the same as they are now come 3.0. don't think of it absolutes of buff or nerf but that everyone is getting their characters power reset across the board. They are improving the core combat mechanics more than they are taking away my individual power to kill trash mobs. If the end result is a better gaming experience im not really that upset then. We have needed a major damage nerf across the board for a long time now, this is actually way overdue. I;m happy for fresh content, i could care less if my relative power levels are dropping or rising as long as the combat works