Chronological order to do FP, OP, and Makeb?

[Darth_Wicked]

What a saucy thread.

 

Your silliness is not required.

 

Leave.

 

* slaps one cheek *

Edited October 29, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Reno_Tarshil]

Your silliness is not required.

 

Leave.

 

* slaps one cheek *

 

Nevah.

 

I think SNV takes place before Makeb, because Makeb wasn't spose to be Makeb originally and certain things happened to cause the content to be spread out instead of being released early.

[Darth_Wicked]

Nevah.

 

I think SNV takes place before Makeb, because Makeb wasn't spose to be Makeb originally and certain things happened to cause the content to be spread out instead of being released early.

 

Yet another thing to consider.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Yet another thing to consider.

 

I saw the thing on Torhead, wasn't Oricon spose to be released like a year earlier?

[Darth_Wicked]

I saw the thing on Torhead, wasn't Oricon spose to be released like a year earlier?

 

 

If you take into account what is stated on TORhead, pretty much.

 

Not only that, but I'm fairly sure Varl was replaced by Oricon instead of Makeb. The latter, one way or another, was bound to happen according to some other stuff.

 

Oricon was just another operation, with a briefing similar to the ones we had for the other operations; Styrak was also NOT supposed to be killed on Darvannis, if you take into account the original dialogues.

Ohhh well, ancient history I guess.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[hadoken]

FACTS won't be going anywhere, unlike your non-existing arguments.

 

It's funny how you can consider a fact to be a non-existing thing in the first place. Not talking about something is not evidence that something exists.

[Levram]

As much as I appreciate your knowledge of the lore of this game, Darth_Wicked, in your posts about the potential underlying philosophy of the Shadow of Revan expansion, I don’t believe that the video clips you referenced above support your assertion that the Scum and Villainy operation occurs before the events on Makeb.

 

Philosophy 101

 

Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam

 

This is a latin term meaning, “argument from lack of evidence to the contrary.” It is one type of informal fallacy which is a category of arguments where the stated premises fail to support the proposed conclusions. With these types of arguments it’s not that a stated premise is logically wrong, and can be shown to be, it’s that the stated premise cannot adequately support the proposed conclusion to the point of persuasiveness.

 

In the case of argumentum ad ignorantiam, a stated premise is asserted to be true because it has not been proven to be false. This type of argument presents a false dichotomy between two choices, either that the premise is true or false. However, when there is a lack of evidence, a third choice exists, that the stated premise cannot be proven to be true or false and therefore it remains unknown.

 

Application to Scum and Villainy Chronology

 

In the first two videos clips you reference above, the quotes refer to The Supreme Mogul, Karagga, being defeated by the player in the Karagga’s Palace operation. Therefore, those clips provide evidence that the Scum and Villainy operation occurs after the events of Karagga’s Palace.

 

In the third clip, Szajin, does not claim the title of Supreme Mogul, but only that of “First Archon.” He simply defines the difference between the role of Supreme Mogul (at that moment, Toborro) and that of Archon.

 

There is no evidence in those clips to support a conclusion that the premise “Scum and Villainy occurs before Makeb” is either true or false. Therefore the third choice, that the premise remains unknown, is also equally likely.

 

Contrasting Evidence

 

In support of the opposite premise, that “Scum and Villainy occurs after Makeb,” I present the following outline.

• Karagga was The Supreme Mogul of the Hutt Cartel
  
• Karagga was assassinated during the Karagga’s Palace operation
  
• Toborro succeeded Karagga as The Supreme Mogul
  
• Toborro was killed on Makeb
  
• No successor to Toborro has been identified in the game.

 

During the Republic storyline on Makeb,

. Toborro was Supreme Mogul for approximately one year (3641 BBY—3640 BBY). In contrast, Karagga was Supreme Mogul for approximately 200 years (3841 BBY—3641 BBY). Karagga was assassinated as Supreme Mogul, whereas Toborro died as just another hutt.

 

Based on the above disparity in the significance of Karagga’s and Toborro’s reigns as Supreme Mogul, it is not inconceivable that in the Republic’s introduction to Scum and Villainy the Supreme Chancellor would reference Karagga's assassination as “a major stumbling block” to the Hutt Cartel rather than Toborro’s death. Clearly the succession process from Karagga has not been smooth.

 

In the

there is simply no reference to the Hutt Cartel as having any leader in place. All dialogue simply references “the Hutts” and “the Cartel.” This could be because both Karagga and Toborro are dead and the Cartel is operating as a collective body.

 

Conclusion

 

There is an absence of evidence that unequivocally proves the premise that Scum and Villainy occurs either before or after the events on Makeb. Toborro is never mentioned in the introductions to the Operation which could either be because he hasn’t risen to power, or because he is dead.

 

The lack of evidence to the contrary of either premise means that greater weight should be given to the third option that exists, that either premise remains unknown.

 

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Levram

[Darth_Wicked]

As much as I appreciate your knowledge of the lore of this game, Darth_Wicked, in your posts about the potential underlying philosophy of the Shadow of Revan expansion, I don’t believe that the video clips you referenced above support your assertion that the Scum and Villainy operation occurs before the events on Makeb.

 

It does support it. Again:

 

 

It matters little if you refuse to acknowledge or consider it.

 

The Consular asks if the Hutts have found a new leader and Saresh mentions only Karagga, who at the time had been -- supposedly -- the last Supreme Mogul of the Hutt Cartel.

 

Seeing she ignores Toborro altogether, the evidence is clear: Scum & Villainy takes place BEFORE Makeb.

 

Instead of trying to come across as a pseudo-philosopher, you could try to obtain evidence from the game itself to display the contrary; You haven't.

 

Application to Scum and Villainy Chronology

 

In the first two videos clips you reference above, the quotes refer to The Supreme Mogul, Karagga, being defeated by the player in the Karagga’s Palace operation. Therefore, those clips provide evidence that the Scum and Villainy operation occurs after the events of Karagga’s Palace.

 

Should be fairly obvious truth be told.

 

It also shows that the Hutts hadn't found a new leader yet, to replace Karagga the Unyielding; Thus, the operation takes place BEFORE Makeb.

 

It makes ZERO sense to assume Saresh would IGNORE Toborro, seeing she's the one who contacts every single player character class, at the beginning of RoTHC.

 

Jedi Knight Makeb Intro

Smuggler Makeb Intro

Trooper Makeb Intro

 

In the third clip, Szajin, does not claim the title of Supreme Mogul, but only that of “First Archon.” He simply defines the difference between the role of Supreme Mogul (at that moment, Toborro) and that of Archon.

 

No offense but I can't tell if you are being deliberately dense.

 

No one said that Szajin claims the title of Supreme Mogul, but rather the fact that the Inquisitor, while affirming that Szajin is not of his station -- the latter being an Archon -- demands to exchange words with the NEW Supreme Mogul.

 

Thus:

Who is that today?

This line being a reference to the demise of Karagga the Unyielding and the ascendance of Toborro.

 

Again, obvious is obvious. No one stated that Szajin had taken the position as the new Supreme Mogul.

 

There is no evidence in those clips to support a conclusion that the premise “Scum and Villainy occurs before Makeb” is either true or false. Therefore the third choice, that the premise remains unknown, is also equally likely.

 

It does. You're just not seeing it.

 

Again, Hall Hood confirms that at the time Karagga's Palace came to an end, Karagga the Unyielding had been defeated. As such, Toborro took over the position and became the new Supreme Mogul.

 

In the video for Imperial Makeb, Szajin claims that as an Archon he guides, while the Supreme Mogul in that day -- namely Toborro -- leads.

 

Once more, with feeling:

 

 

By the time Makeb was taking place, they had a new leader, namely Toborro. This is FACTUAL.

 

Seeing they didn't have one yet during the events of S&V, following the demise of Karagga, the answer is both fairly obvious and self-explanatory.

 

You are arguing for the sake of arguing, not much else.

 

Contrasting Evidence

 

In support of the opposite premise, that “Scum and Villainy occurs after Makeb,” I present the following outline.

• Karagga was The Supreme Mogul of the Hutt Cartel
  
• Karagga was assassinated during the Karagga’s Palace operation
  
• Toborro succeeded Karagga as The Supreme Mogul
  
• Toborro was killed on Makeb
  
• No successor to Toborro has been identified in the game.

 

You need to play the game a bit more would it seem:

 

Despite the popularity of Saresh’s strategies, they appear to be untenable in the long term. The Republic’s production capacities (particularly foodstuffs, energy, and war materiel) are already nearing their maximum capacity. The Empire’s defensive maneuvering has dragged out conflicts in multiple areas, while third-party activities are also taking a toll, particularly increased starship piracy in the Abrion sector. Absorption of the bulk of the Hutt Cartel’s assets after the Makeb debacle brought only short-term gains, and only after the substantial expense necessary to bring those Cartel operations in line with Republic interests and legal codes.

 

You can't identify what doesn't exist.

 

Toborro = Last Supreme Mogul for a while, seeing the Republic has absorbed the Cartel for the most part. Oggurobb is now the liason between the two, as stated here.

 

During the Republic storyline on Makeb,

. Toborro was Supreme Mogul for approximately one year (3641 BBY—3640 BBY). In contrast, Karagga was Supreme Mogul for approximately 200 years (3841—3641 BBY). Karagga was assassinated as Supreme Mogul, whereas Toborro died as just another hutt.

 

Again, it matters little if he was shunned or not, as I mentioned repeatedly. He became a Supreme Mogul, just like the puppet Mandalore is still known as Mandalore the Lesser.

 

Based on the above disparity in the significance of Karagga’s and Toborro’s reigns as Supreme Mogul, it is not inconceivable that in the Republic’s introduction to Scum and Villainy the Supreme Chancellor would reference Karagga assassination as “a major stumbling block” to the Hutt Cartel rather than Toborro’s death. Clearly the succession process from Karagga has not been smooth.

 

And I already explained above why that makes little to no sense whatsoever, especially coming from Saresh. Also, you keep ignoring one very basic detail:

 

 

Again, not that hard to grasp.

 

In the

there is simply no reference to the Hutt Cartel as having any leader in place. All dialogue simply references “the Hutts” and “the Cartel.” This could be because both Karagga and Toborro are dead and the Cartel is operating as a collective body.

 

Hardly an argument truth be told.

 

Conclusion

 

There is an absence of evidence that unequivocally proves the premise that Scum and Villainy occurs either before or after the events on Makeb. Toborro is never mentioned in the introductions to the Operation which could either be because he hasn’t risen to power, or because he is dead.

 

There's plenty of evidence, as shown earlier already. The fact you chose to ignore it won't change it.

 

The lack of evidence to the contrary of either premise means that greater weight should be given to the third option that exists, that either premise remains unknown.

 

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

 

Final time:

 

Truly amazing that people go to such great lengths to IGNORE what the game says. Truly.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[bdatt]

Interesting read the SnV/makeb follow up, even if it got a little heated. Given you can start makeb at lvl 47, before being allowed into karraga's palace, it seems there is no reason character level absolutely must coincide with overall story.

 

In fact, if one had not been level capped at 50, doing EV, KP, EC, TfB and the other stuff would advance one to 55 to do SnV then makeb despite it being designed for leveling 50-55.

[Darth_Wicked]

Interesting read the SnV/makeb follow up, even if it got a little heated. Given you can start makeb at lvl 47, before being allowed into karraga's palace, it seems there is no reason character level absolutely must coincide with overall story.

 

In fact, if one had not been level capped at 50, doing EV, KP, EC, TfB and the other stuff would advance one to 55 to do SnV then makeb despite it being designed for leveling 50-55.

 

Again, it really does not.

 

* Spoilers Below *

 

MANDALORIAN RAIDERS:

 

 

The BH claims that he has worked with Mandalore and the clans, something that actually only happens AFTER you finish the first Chapter. Whether I'm seeing too much into this or it's definitely an oversight on their part, implying that Mandalorian Raiders originally took place AFTER the first chapter, I can't really say.

 

BELSAVIS BONUS SERIES:

 

It is also fair to assume that the bonus series for Belsavis also take place BEFORE the end of Chapter Three, seing as the Sith Inquisitor is not acknowledged by anyone as a Darth in the Dark Council.

 

The Black Hole incident also takes place AFTER Denova ( Explosive Conflict ), since the Empire is forced to abandon its the Core Worlds offensive, since their supply lines are too stretched thin after Denova and some other event I can't quite recall right now.

 

I'm also unsure where the CZERKA takeover actually takes place, again continuity wise, since there's not much info concerning outside events. Kinda similar - in a way - to S&V but CZ-198 is far worse in that regard.

 

S&V, HOTH AND NAR SHADDAA BONUS SERIES:

 

Scum & Villainy actually takes place BEFORE the events on Makeb, since Republic side, there's no reference whatsoever to Toborro and Karagga is mentioned instead.

 

Concerning the bonus series on Hoth, the Sith Warrior's response during a conversation confirms that he - or she - is still serving Darth Baras, which is not the case anymore.

 

Same for the bonus series on Nar Shaddaa, Republic side, where the SiS headquarters are said to have been burned to the ground recently. Such event occurs during the JK storyline BTW.

 

- - - -

 

Original thread here.

 

EDIT:

 

Another one I failed to bring up earlier, concerning the Hoth Bonus Series:

 

Khun Tazith, the founder of the Bane Brigade, claims he was brought out of retirement by Darth Vengean. At the time the series are taking place, Darth Baras had already replaced Vengean in the Dark Council.

 

Edited October 29, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[hadoken]

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

 

Indeed, additionally what is fascinating is he then takes the assumption that is opposite the logical assumption - which is that the storyline actually follows the leveling trend (as...designed).

 

I fear this is an argument it's best to just walk away from, there's no getting through to some people

[Darth_Wicked]

Indeed, additionally what is fascinating is he then takes the assumption that is opposite the logical assumption - which is that the storyline actually follows the leveling trend (as...designed).

 

I fear this is an argument it's best to just walk away from, there's no getting through to some people

 

Again, reading must be exceptionally hard for you.

[hadoken]

Again, reading must be exceptionally hard for you.

 

You've been hostile and aggressive the entire thread. It really seems you don't like being "challenged" on your opinions. I'd suggest growing up a little, it's going to continue to happen in life. You need to learn to deal with it better. You really should be above these weak attempts at personal attacks.

[Darth_Wicked]

You've been hostile and aggressive the entire thread. It really seems you don't like being "challenged" on your opinions.

 

They are not opinions. They are what the game shows us.

 

Different things.

 

Not my fault you have an issue distinguishing between the two.

 

I'd suggest growing up a little, it's going to continue to happen in life. You need to learn to deal with it better. You really should be above these weak attempts at personal attacks.

 

Judging from this...

Indeed, additionally what is fascinating is he then takes the assumption that is opposite the logical assumption - which is that the storyline actually follows the leveling trend (as...designed).

 

I fear this is an argument it's best to just walk away from, there's no getting through to some people

 

I think you should take your own advice. You have no moral high-ground to say anything on the subject, especially considering you added absolutely NOTHING to the topic at hand.

 

You care about personalities, not the subject surely.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[bdatt]

Again, it really does not.

 

I was actually agreeing with you. I'm in agreement SnV comes before Makeb and that in general character level requirements aren't an indication of story progression but are there for just game mechanics.

Edited October 30, 2014 by bdatt

[hadoken]

They are not opinions. They are what the game shows us.

 

Different things.

 

Not my fault you have an issue distinguishing between the two.

 

You mean...what the game DOESN'T show you? Because again your best attempt at evidence...is the lack of evidence.

 

Omission is not admission.

 

I think you should take your own advice. You have no moral high-ground to say anything on the subject, especially considering you added absolutely NOTHING to the topic at hand.

 

You care about personalities, not the subject surely.

 

I'm just trying to help you out here, since it's clear you care deeply about the subject and being 'right' about your opinion on it. There really is no right or wrong with opinions, and that's all these are. I know you like to throw the word 'fact' around when you state an opinion, but that really doesn't make it so.

Edited October 30, 2014 by hadoken

[Max_Killjoy]

I wonder if the devs would chime in on certain chronological questions...

[Marb]

As soon as a player hits 50 and goes to the fleet they are bombarded with a complex network of unrelated quests for flashpoints, operations and daily areas. Bioware really need to pick up all that content and present it to the player in a staggered and more linear way.

 

Wicked, could you put together a chronology that is consistent with in game evidence? I'm not the only one who would be interested in such a resource. The official order is most likely the order the content is released, but I would be more interested in a chronology that isn't contradicted by in game dialogue.

[DarthDymond]

The Consular asks if the Hutts have found a new leader and Saresh mentions only Karagga, who at the time had been -- supposedly -- the last Supreme Mogul of the Hutt Cartel.

 

Seeing she ignores Toborro altogether, the evidence is clear: Scum & Villainy takes place BEFORE Makeb.

I agree that the omission of any reference of Toborro implies that S&V takes place before Makeb, but (particularly given a few tidbits out there about the development history of some of the 2.0 content) I think option 1 of this:

As such, there are two possibilities:

 

 

• An oversight by the writing team.

• Scum & Villainy takes place BEFORE Makeb.

is a distinct possibility.

 

I say this mainly because there is a less-direct, but still glaringly odd omission going on if you assume S&V takes place first: the Seeds of Rage questline.

 

We know Seeds of Rage chronologically takes place well into the events on Makeb, since one of the main bread-crumb quests for it occurs on-planet about half-way through. That questline follows an attack by the Dread Masters' servants, but in it there's no mention of the fairly significant ending of S&V.

 

Placing S&V either before or after Makeb (and thus Seeds of Rage) leaves us with an odd situation either way:

 

"Wow, it's really odd that we're going up against [The Hutt Cartel] but there's no mention of [Toborro being Supreme Mogul]."

-or-

"Wow, it's really odd that we're going up against [The Dread Masters] but there's no mention of [Styrak's fate on Darvannis]."

 

Given how front-and-center the outcome of Darvannis is in all the dialogue on Oricon, it getting no mention whatsoever in Seeds of Rage seems like a significant omission.

 

Add that to a few minor things like these:

Most recently, the Dread Masters attempted to bolster their forces by once again manipulating the shattered Hutt Cartel. A vast assembly of mercenary and pirate arms, vehicles, and personnel was gathered on Darvannis,

"the shattered Hutt Cartel" could be explained as talking about its state after Karagga's death, but that's a bit of a stretch - it really fits better with describing the Cartel post-Makeb. The Shroud's State of the Galaxy report certainly describes Makeb as what 'shattered' the Cartel.

Player: We can hardly make a move without the Dread Masters going against us.

Saresh: You're right, and we're not going to stand for it any longer. All the Republic's resource - military, SIS [minor spoiler omitted] - will be dedicated to finding the Dread Masters' hiding place

.

In the overall flow of the story these certainly sound like a straightforward lead-in to Oricon.

 

Regardless, I'm updating my initial Chronology since I think S&V taking place first is the slightly better of two ultimately 'bad fits'. I think the Dread War story arc itself flows better if you place S&V after Makeb, but that line in the Republic quest makes sense to put it before.

Edited October 30, 2014 by DarthDymond

[Darth_Wicked]

Wicked, could you put together a chronology that is consistent with in game evidence? I'm not the only one who would be interested in such a resource. The official order is most likely the order the content is released, but I would be more interested in a chronology that isn't contradicted by in game dialogue.

 

It would be pointless, seeing that I can imagine some focusing on pseudo-philosophical tirades, not so much in the chronology or what the game shows.

 

I'll pass but it's a nice thought no less.

 

In the overall flow of the story these certainly sound like a straightforward lead-in to Oricon.

 

Only if you ignore this:

 

Your pursuit of the Dread Masters can wait. A more pressing situation has arisen.

He only says that if you successfully completed Terror From Beyond however. Even so, it fits nicely with what Moff Orlec says at the end of S&V.

 

In other words, this:

 

Of course not. An incident like this demands immediate retaliation.

 

I'll inform the Ministry of War personally and submit a full report to the Dark Council.

 

Happens but then again, this

-- the Hutt Cartel invasion of Makeb -- also happens; one complements the other.

 

EDIT:

 

I say this mainly because there is a less-direct, but still glaringly odd omission going on if you assume S&V takes place first: the Seeds of Rage questline.

 

It is not odd but rather intentional most likely. Example:

 

Darth Arho Codex Entry

 

Notice something odd? Such as...

No mention of Darth Baras succeeding to Darth Vengean? Arho succeeded to the former, NOT the latter.

 

Oversight? Or selective wording?

 

I bet on the latter, as to avoid spoiling certain story content, one might gather. There are others cases but that one is quite telling.

 

EDIT: (2)

 

Explosive Conflict also takes place BEFORE the Black Hole Crisis BTW. Hell, if you wanna break it down...

Even Makeb may as well.

 

Depends on how you read or interpret some stuff I guess.

It feels like a clusterfrak of epic proportions though.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Darth_Wicked