Why not bonus req now?

[Verain]

One thing I see around is that the GSF bonus req will land when the expac does.

 

 

 

...but why? Right now, the game is "bribing" you to play alts, with a giant boost to that, and when the expac comes out it will be "bribing" you to level. Why not have the increased req gains on live now?

 

 

 

This is sort of a lull in a lot of SWTOR, and the GSF plan announced is just a straight extra compensation. Why not just patch that guy in this week or whatever?

[tommmsunb]

this.

[zaskar]

And revert all the fat fingered bugs that slipped in since 2.8

[nyghtrunner]

Agreed. It's definitely a little odd that they've got a HUGE carrot dangling for people to branch out and make alts on new servers (or their normal servers), but not give the GSF carrot until the carrot to create new toons is gone? It's just... strange.

[Verain]

And revert all the fat fingered bugs that slipped in since 2.8

 

Some of those could well have been intended. But they could do the req thing without any of the heavy lifting like "writing a patch note" or "a sentence telling us if Ion Missile nerf is intended or a glitch" (replace with Ion Railgun and EMP field as well).

[Metthew]

Agreed. It's definitely a little odd that they've got a HUGE carrot dangling for people to branch out and make alts on new servers (or their normal servers), but not give the GSF carrot until the carrot to create new toons is gone? It's just... strange.

It is important to note that the carrot is dangling to gain new subscribers, get in advance income from pre-orders, and emphasize the strong point of the new expansion (story).

 

If there is to be a carrot for GSF, it should be to attract new players - and it should be implemented and advertised when those players will be receptive to such incentivization. Upping requisitions now would drown the incentive amidst the others.

 

GSF does need some love, but doing it now when the target audience is so distracted makes no sense. Well, unless you want the requisition bonus to be for veteran players who haven't mastered every ship, that is.

[Verain]

That audience will be MORE distracted when the new levels come out, though. I'm really not seeing the downside of doing it now.

[Metthew]

That audience will be MORE distracted when the new levels come out, though. I'm really not seeing the downside of doing it now.

Well, there IS a qualitative difference between the distractions. Currently we are on a (admittedly long) timer for leveling alts to 55. People have 10 hours to 55, yeah, but I watch the cutscenes so 10 hours brings me to Taris (Imp)/Balmorra(Pub), after Chapter 1. This is per character.

 

Whereas after the expansion comes out, the new stuff will be part of the game for good.

 

I do see your point though, such GSF bonuses will still be in reduced demand due to the distraction. And since we are halfway into the event at this point, GSF bonuses might prove more effective to many people who have already grinded out their alts.

 

That, and GSF might as well receive -some- nice treatment. -.-

[DamascusAdontise]

/signed, really no reason why this couldn't be added easily sooner rather than later. Within about 5 days I will have finished all my alts so ill be raring to go with GSF. Would be nice if I could grind out gsf after I grind out leveling.

[Nireesh]

This would be nice to have now for sure. Do you think there's a benefit to saving your req grants now to cash in for more later?

[Verain]

This would be nice to have now for sure. Do you think there's a benefit to saving your req grants now to cash in for more later?

 

Me? Of course. It would be really stupid of me not to.

 

You? I couldn't say. The req on them is going up for sure, but having req now is also important. All my ships are mastered, so waiting is an easy call. If I didn't have a mastered ship, I would continue to pop dailies, and maybe hold weeklies, or maybe pop them too.

 

 

It's a personal call. What's your status on your ships atm?

[Nireesh]

Me? Of course. It would be really stupid of me not to.

 

You? I couldn't say. The req on them is going up for sure, but having req now is also important. All my ships are mastered, so waiting is an easy call. If I didn't have a mastered ship, I would continue to pop dailies, and maybe hold weeklies, or maybe pop them too.

 

 

It's a personal call. What's your status on your ships atm?

 

I've got most of my ships at an intermediate level.. most requiring the top skills which cost 15k kind of thing. So I'm not sure if I should just hang on or use em. I'm a fairly casual gsf player.. I only get one daily or two per week.

[Bolo_Yeung]

I have a better idea. Get rid of requisitions, upgrading etc - let everyone choose his ship and loadout, this way only skill will matter....

[Verain]

I have a better idea. Get rid of requisitions, upgrading etc - let everyone choose his ship and loadout, this way only skill will matter....

 

I'm pretty sure that idea would destroy the game? It would certainly not be fair to a player like me in any way, but in general, the upgrade model is a core part of the game. Just because we all want that ramp shortened doesn't mean we want to hand out literally everything free forever.

 

 

 

Advantages of the current model:

1)- Provides newer and bad players with an excuse. This lets them continue playing, or if they DO quit, they go out flaming "the gear difference", which is actually heard by most MMO players as "get the gear and everything is fine".

The problem with "only skill matters", by the way, is that only skill matters. Who does that benefit? If a player has a huge woody for games that ONLY take skill, well, is he at the top of the Starcraft II ladder? There's a TON of games that ONLY take skill, and somehow the players who come around asking for those don't seem to be the same guys that make their living on raw skill based games. With so very many pure skill based games, why would anyone ever stop in and ask about a gear component being removed from a game that uses that as a progression / retention / experience diversity mechanic?

 

2)- Provides the losers of a fight (at any skill level) with an excuse- or reason. The winners will generally enjoy winning, though if they know that the gear was why it will only diminish that a little bit (example: Armondd stopped by Bastion a few times, and while a threat, every kill was sort of like, well, would he have died there if he was on his real ship?). But provide the losers of a match with a reason why they lost, and the loss is mitigated- you turn the win/loss from zero sum to something positive, emotionally speaking. I've definitely heard of players who max their ships out, play in a premade, and lose to another premade- and that's enough for them to, over a couple weeks, quit. They still win MOST of their games, put out great numbers, have all the everything- and they quit, because they were telling themselves a lie, and their enjoyment rested on being able to feed that lie. If there was a steeper req hill to climb, maybe they would have played enough or gotten good enough that they would still be playing. That's the GOOD player who needs a steep req hill. I'm not saying we need that, I'm just saying, those guys fall off the radar, we just lose them.

 

3)- Provides anyone who isn't fully mastered with a goal. Your player power WILL increase, just stick with it! Of course, if you are new, it's really your skill ramping up WILDLY. If most people had to see a fraps of their 1st game, 10th game, and 100th game next to each other, it would be mind blowing. Drako was watching someone stream their first game, and I was like "that's amazing". What data points would show up then, with more games? It would be great!

 

4)- Sense of progression / completeness: This is not to be underestimated in an MMO. When I semijokingly calculated all the reqs for the ships to be "complete", it spawned a discussion on completing every ship. While mastering a ship obviously grants bonuses, and mastering a few other components gives you some more builds, no one seriously needs every component on every ship, because many are bad. Certainly, for instance, no one needs rapid fire laser on a Clarion, etc. But the idea of having every button checked feels good to the sort of players that play MMOs.

 

5)- Easy way to ensure investment. Without a req setup, the game "benefits" an unsustainable group. Some wave of players who are fickle by nature, reasonably skilled, and pick up any game fast. And will they play more, or less? I would argue less- they'll gear up, get farmed by premades, and come to the conclusion that something ELSE is wrong with the game. If a person blames gear for their loss when it barely matters, what will they do when we take away that mental crutch? Blame... themselves? Unlikely, they'll just move to the next game and blame the controls, or the playerbase, or the "imps/pubs on my server", or "hacks".... excuses are free to these guys. In any event, the devs making a game for such a group of pseudohardcores are often unimpressed by the results.

 

6- Lock in. This sounds bad, but it has an upside. Games that are meant to be swarmed by a locust swarm of gamers without ANY of the unlock-upgrade "campaign progression" style stuff can be amazing, but what about when everyone swarms away six months later? You still see people popping in Goldeneye and playing it like it's 1998, but back then there were way less games total, and the ones that did stick around in people's memory mostly did so for reasons besides raw play design. F-Zero X was all play design, and IMO one of the greatest games ever, but the multiplayer in it was poor. Goldeneye was mostly memorable because it had some good design choices and was available with solid multiplayer on a TV, something that PC games still fight to bring to the table, and was common on colleges, etc. You probably remember Goldeneye if you were of age back then, but probably not the F-Zero- and you probably don't play ANY of the PC games of that era any more (there are some exceptions, but I'd say they are rare). Today, there's a SWARM of games, more than even the most time-possessing gamer thirst crowd can drink. By saying to your players "if you do play, you get some rewards", it has a chance of keeping around a crowd. Yes, the crowd will be small at times (some are discouraged by needing to perform the induction ritual of getting the "gear", even if reasonably small), but that can be preferable to a completely unpredictable playerbase, because the resulting crash is normally community destroying. I'm sure SOME of the players look at their mastered ships and say "well, I mean, I wouldn't want to throw this away", despite all the logical fallacy that entails. Even if YOU don't think that, some of your other players do (though you'll never find one that will admit it).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I feel that idea is terrible, and if we can't even talk the devs into making access to each component free or 50 req, I doubt they have THAT nonsense on the list. I suspect that there's like a 1/4 chance that phase 2 or 3 of their three phase plan would make the game awful, but I doubt they would fall into THIS trap. I think that we get better games, more games, better experience, and more fun, all because we have a req system. I do think that some parts are overboard, of course- it's slow req many times, some of the most important pieces are gated, new experiences such as components and ships are VERY heavily gated despite not being "worth" it in some cases (unlocking a crap component, unlocking a poor ship), etc. But the core design is good.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Verain

[PlagaNerezza]

I'm pretty sure that idea would destroy the game? It would certainly not be fair to a player like me in any way, but in general, the upgrade model is a core part of the game. Just because we all want that ramp shortened doesn't mean we want to hand out literally everything free forever.

.

 

Point Whatever: It allows lazy developers to trick gamers like the poster to believe that a grind or new grind is content. It gives them a way to avoid adding content like they are getting paid to develop. They can create a massive gating progression system that introduces a rat-race to the game as opposed to compelling content. Now its gear X you need. Go re-grind it. If they removed that option the developers would have to actually create something. Not just re-skin something.

 

Because the entire point of a subscription/pay to play game is that you pay to have access and added content. Great maps, adding capital ship guild fighting within the star fighter battle. Anything that enhances the space game beyond this unitegrated, horrid mechanic system that doesn't even do a flying game justice. So while i don't mind having some grind to a game having the entire system being nothing but a grind is annoying.

 

What we have here is a classic case of a geared players who grinded in the system trying to protect that system.

[caederon]

It gives them a way to avoid adding content like they are getting paid to develop.

...

Because the entire point of a subscription/pay to play game is that you pay to have access and added content. Great maps, adding capital ship guild fighting within the star fighter battle. Anything that enhances the space game beyond this unitegrated, horrid mechanic system that doesn't even do a flying game justice.

...

What we have here is a classic case of a geared players who grinded in the system trying to protect that system.

What we have here is someone whose sense of entitlement is leading them to ignore all actual evidence to the contrary and keep arguing points that are easily rebutted. You don't like GSF (which is a pretty unique blend of arcade action and sim elements), but I guess you want a free space sim designed to fit your specific personal standards added into the MMORPG you signed up for, so you rail against everything and anything, gnashing your teeth and avoiding any kind of reasonable assessment of the situation.

 

It's pretty obvious at this point that the dev team who made GSF are re-tasked to deal with other areas of TOR that Bioware feels will be a better return on the money they're paying them. There is no idle team of GSF developers sipping pina coladas on the beach, laughing at us as they trickle out re-skinned cartel variants. I'd like to see more content added, I greatly hope for it. I suspect that the devs who made GSF would like to come back to it and add more stuff, but the content added to TOR is driven by what the publisher thinks will get people to spend more money on the game (which lest you forget is a story driven MMORPG at its heart, not a space sim).

 

And when it comes to 'protecting the system'... most of the 'geared players' you're talking about, including me, routinely start alts or new characters on other servers and start from stock ships just like everyone else. We have no advantages aside from our experience playing the game in that case, and build back up with the same 'grind' required of a new player. Why? Why would we ever do this when we are apparently supposed to be protecting the system that gives us such advantages? Could it be because we like playing the game?!? Maybe? Will this mystery ever be solved?

 

- Despon

[StrixHiraeth]

Point Whatever: It allows lazy developers to trick gamers like the poster to believe that a grind or new grind is content. It gives them a way to avoid adding content like they are getting paid to develop. They can create a massive gating progression system that introduces a rat-race to the game as opposed to compelling content. Now its gear X you need. Go re-grind it. If they removed that option the developers would have to actually create something. Not just re-skin something.

 

Because the entire point of a subscription/pay to play game is that you pay to have access and added content. Great maps, adding capital ship guild fighting within the star fighter battle. Anything that enhances the space game beyond this unitegrated, horrid mechanic system that doesn't even do a flying game justice. So while i don't mind having some grind to a game having the entire system being nothing but a grind is annoying.

 

What we have here is a classic case of a geared players who grinded in the system trying to protect that system.

 

Hm... what are you debating here exactly? No one is disagreeing with you... The point of this thread was that there wouldn't be any harm in making requisition easier to accumulate now rather than waiting for update 3. i.e. make it less "grindy".

 

I say, Yes! Implement the change now!

Edited October 23, 2014 by Ymris

[LilSaihah]

I think changing how gear works might be okay. The grind isn't strictly necessary; it has advantages and disadvantages.

 

The things I'd fiddle with would be the components that are make-or-break based on their upgrades. The most obvious culprit here is Distortion Field with its missile break.

[Verain]

Well, the issue is this: the devs announced a req boost coming up. I made a thread saying "hey, lets get the boost faster, that would be cool". I didn't think the devs would go DO that, but, I mean, there's no compelling reason to wait till the expac that I can think of. Then Bolo came in and was like DELETE REQ AND REDESIGN THE GAME. I argued with that- OBVIOUSLY the devs aren't going to make a game like that, and I also gave reasons why that would be a terrible design decision- and then Plaga came in to claim that "what we have here is a classic case of geared players trying to defend that system", even though the actual thread is about greatly increasing requisition gain as fast as possible- it's "a classic case" because, you know, I'm not in favor of a full redesign out of nowhere. My big post? Clearly not relevant. The fact that I've played more stock ships than he ever will? Also not relevant. I'm clearly just defending a system because I have gear in it on some of the characters I play on. Obviously self serving. Just ignore like, the whole industry built on this model- I'm sure that's just the classic case of the devs whatever whatever hate hate hate.

 

 

Basically, we can't discuss anything without a bunch of clowns coming in with tears drawn all down their cheeks screaming that we must be insane for not wanting to totally redo everything about the game.

 

 

In every thread.