ZionHalcyon Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I think even this is unfair. This concept art is not about showcasing character. This armour artwork is about just that - the armour, displayed on a standardized model to keep scale and dimensions understandable and consistent. Turning this into a gender issue just just silly. In all seriousness, people tend to write, draw, and express themselves from their own point of view. Given that video game making is a male dominated industry, and NOT from a glass ceiling, but from a lack of interest from the female population into getting into the industry, its not surprising to see the industry has an overall male point of view. The irony is the gaming industry tends to lean pretty left, so its not as if they are a boys club trying to exclude women - women seem pretty welcome there, and there are those who are in the industry who are quite successful and bringing out their own points of view. But if females want more of a voice, then they need to start getting involved in the business of game making. Otherwise, all that is left is them complaining about an industry they have no interest in working in, but would accept them if they did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 In all seriousness, people tend to write, draw, and express themselves from their own point of view. Given that video game making is a male dominated industry, and NOT from a glass ceiling, but from a lack of interest from the female population into getting into the industry, its not surprising to see the industry has an overall male point of view. The irony is the gaming industry tends to lean pretty left, so its not as if they are a boys club trying to exclude women - women seem pretty welcome there, and there are those who are in the industry who are quite successful and bringing out their own points of view. But if females want more of a voice, then they need to start getting involved in the business of game making. Otherwise, all that is left is them complaining about an industry they have no interest in working in, but would accept them if they did... Well, on that note, the gaming companies as a whole are absolutely, notoriously sexist to female developers. But then again, this is a problem everywhere, and I think (don't mean to generalize here) that women in this industry are drastically more courageous and likely to come forward with these events than in other industries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knorlac Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Your own language is showing part of the problem. The male gender should not be the "standardized model". Men are not the "norm" and females a special exception. There should be examples of both present (perhaps not for each design but overall). The industry really needs to start realizing this. I can get behind the thought that the overall presentation of a product that allows for both genders to be playable should strife to represent both of them, but do you complain about other media like books or movies featuring male protagonists. All of those including games IMO are works of art, and if the artist came up with a story that features a male protagonist, I see no fault in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Your own language is showing part of the problem. The male gender should not be the "standardized model". Men are not the "norm" and females a special exception. There should be examples of both present (perhaps not for each design but overall). The industry really needs to start realizing this. Beat me to it. If they went through the entire Concept Art phase of the classes without any female models, then that points to a reoccurring problem in the industry - the underlying character concept is male, "female" is just an option added as an afterthought. I don't believe BW is likely to have fallen into that trap, so one would assume there should be a fair amount of female character concept art available for them to have chosen some images from. If 100% of the Concept Art was male - that says something. And for those saying people are being "over sensitive" about gender issues in gaming, when the broader state of affairs includes things like those who speak out these issues being harassed to the point of having to leave their homes or having to cancel talks because of threats of mass shootings... it probably makes it easy to read a bit into things. Edited October 16, 2014 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Your own language is showing part of the problem. The male gender should not be the "standardized model". Men are not the "norm" and females a special exception. There should be examples of both present (perhaps not for each design but overall). The industry really needs to start realizing this. This is a discussion that would require pulling literally thousands of years of societal evolution into it in order to fully encapsulate it, so I'm not even going to get into it. Suffice it to say, the concept artists had to choose one standard model to work from. From this, they develop all body types. Not just male and female, but heavyset or muscular, scrawny or average. I may as well be demanding that fat guys are represented here, but again, this is all inconsequential as the representation is present in spades in the final product. Hell, the Republic itself and the Jedi Order are led by women, and the Empire storyline is revolving around the efforts of another woman. Not to mention female voiceover is arguably higher quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pourekos Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Do you mind telling me how you can distinguish whether the Trooper, both of the Sith and the Bounty Hunter are male or female? Because I am pretty sure that I have seen partly similar armor on both male AND female characters in-game, plus there is no face shown to help distinguish one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Beat me to it. If they went through the entire Concept Art phase of the classes without any female models, then that points to a reoccurring problem in the industry - the character concept is male, "female" is just an option added as an afterthought. I don't believe BW is likely to have fallen into that trap, so one would assume there should be a fair amount of female character concept art available for them to have chosen some images from. If 100% of the Concept Art was male - that says something. And for those saying people are being "over sensitive" about gender issues in gaming, when the broader state of affairs includes things like those who speak out these issues being harassed to the point of having to leave their homes or having to cancel talks because of threats of mass shootings... it probably makes it easy to read a bit into things. Where's my fat guy concept art? Mountains out of molehills, people. Pick your battles. This isn't an issue. At all. There are issues with gender equality in the industry, but this is not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I can get behind the thought that the overall presentation of a product that allows for both genders to be playable should strife to represent both of them, but do you complain about other media like books or movies featuring male protagonists. All of those including games IMO are works of art, and if the artist came up with a story that features a male protagonist, I see no fault in that. Oh absolutely I do, this isn't unique to gaming by far. It's a national issue. We've come a long way but we have a very long way to go, and it starts by people realizing that 'normal = male' is a huge problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Do you mind telling me how you can distinguish whether the Trooper, both of the Sith and the Bounty Hunter are male or female? Because I am pretty sure that I have seen partly similar armor on both male AND female characters in-game, plus there is no face shown to help distinguish one way or another. Very easily, have you played this game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pourekos Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 And for those saying people are being "over sensitive" about gender issues in gaming, when the broader state of affairs includes things like those who speak out these issues being harassed to the point of having to leave their homes or having to cancel talks because of threats of mass shootings... it probably makes it easy to read a bit into things. If you are going to bring gamergate here, you might as well include the harassment and death threads the pro-gamergate people get as well. Otherwise you simple reek of bias and as someone who is looking for an argument just for the sake of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 looking for an argument just for the sake of it. That is what this thread boils down to. SW:TOR is a paragon of gender equality, and this "issue" is completely frivolous. Even self-destructive to those who actively champion equality in this industry. Don't get me wrong - if there was a case to be made here, I'd be all righteously offended as well, but there isn't. You can very easily find issue with anything if you're looking for one, however, deliberately or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Where's my fat guy concept art? Mountains out of molehills, people. Pick your battles. This isn't an issue. At all. There are issues with gender equality in the industry, but this is not one of them. No one here is launching a Nationwide Boycott of BW over this, or writing to EA demanding that BW's management be fired, etc. They've gone on the forum that exists specifically to talk about this game to mention an instance where this game is (I believe inadvertently) playing into a damaging industry trend. No one is saying that BW invented sexism and no one is threatening to burn down their offices - having a discussion about it on the discussion board seems like a pretty measured response. Edited October 16, 2014 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 No one here is launching a Nationwide Boycott of BW over this, or writing to EA demanding that BW's management be fired, etc. They've gone on the forum that exists specifically to talk about this game to mention an instance where this game is (I believe inadvertently) playing into a damaging industry trend. No one is saying that BW invented sexism and no one is threatening to burn down their offices - having a discussion about it on the discussion board seems like a pretty measured response. Here's the thing: gender isn't even considered when creating concept art. Male or female. It's a gender neutral process. Attempting to turn this into an issue is demeaning to the very cause of equality when "discussions" of this type are had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knorlac Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Oh absolutely I do, this isn't unique to gaming by far. It's a national issue. We've come a long way but we have a very long way to go, and it starts by people realizing that 'normal = male' is a huge problem. So artistic freedom is bad? If females are discouraged or otherwise hindered in entering those industries, that is an entirely different issue, one that should be combated by all means IMO. But were I to write a novel or write a script for a movie I'd start with a male protagonist as well. Simply because it is the point of view I've shared for my entire life and I can get into more comfortably, not because I think that females shouldn't act heroic or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 So artistic freedom is bad? If females are discouraged or otherwise hindered in entering those industries, that is an entirely different issue, one that should be combated by all means IMO. But were I to write a novel or write a script for a movie I'd start with a male protagonist as well. Simply because it is the point of view I've shared for my entire life and I can get into more comfortably, not because I think that females shouldn't act heroic or something. We aren't talking about employees in the industry, we're talking about marketing to the gamers. Of which in this game there are not just men. Far from it. And there are or were female writers with BioWare too, regardless. I don't know if they're still there but it doesn't require a female designer to create a female character. Just as it doesn't take a female player to play one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Here's the thing: gender isn't even considered when creating concept art. Male or female. It's a gender neutral process. Attempting to turn this into an issue is demeaning to the very cause of equality when "discussions" of this type are had. Gender neutral = male is a fallacy. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you'll see the issue as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knorlac Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Gender neutral = male is a fallacy. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you'll see the issue as it is. If the artwork was intended for internal use, it sounds perfectly logical to me to settle for one gender for the sake of comparability and consistency. Perhaps the artist simply felt that he was better at drawing males, who knows, or he did it just because he was a male himself without giving it any further thought, which he shouldn't have to in the first place. Again, if all of the drawings had been female, no one would've complained. It's a non issue IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrinVlado Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 This thread is so pointless. This is such a non issue!! I swear domi, I have never seen a post from you that doesn't complain in some way. Stop!! And quit trying to pull an argument out of your butt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Gender neutral = male is a fallacy. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you'll see the issue as it is. When you put a white winter jacket on a hanger, do you call the hanger sexist for hiding the female form? As I stated, gender equality is and will remain to be an issue for a long, long while. I experience its effects not only from stories on the internet, but on a day-to-day basis in the real world. This subject is not purely academic to me. That is why it is absolutely infuriating to me that people would trivialize it by inventing issues under the guise of championing the cause. It's absolutely demeaning to expend energy on non-issues such as this. Edit: Also, recognize the irony in your assumption that I am male. Edited October 16, 2014 by CelCawdro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangrar Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 This is one of the reasons why I absolutely detest modern "Politically Correct" society. This is so not worth getting upset over. yeah, especially since the game overall does a good job of having both males and females featured throughout, I mean one article doesn't really show anything for all we know they just made it on the spot using whatever concept art they could quickly scrounge up ( maybe expansion preorders are a bit low since there are some people specifically avoiding getting that involuntary 12xp boost). Either way I do not think they specifically and purposefully excluded females on this, I do not get how one article like this is becoming such an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Oh absolutely I do, this isn't unique to gaming by far. It's a national issue. We've come a long way but we have a very long way to go, and it starts by people realizing that 'normal = male' is a huge problem. I'm sorry, but which nation is this supposed to be an "issue" for? Because, if you look around, in the US, we go out of our way to give the appearance of inclusiveness. That didn't happen in this case, obviously, but it typically does. I wouldn't read too much into this. The game obviously is very inclusive of both males and females (and other species, too!). All of their other marketing, including the art for the expansion, includes females. If there were an issue here, I'd be all about getting it corrected. But this just doesn't seem like anything but someone blowing smoke where there's no fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I'm sorry, but which nation is this supposed to be an "issue" for? Because, if you look around, in the US, we go out of our way to give the appearance of inclusiveness. That didn't happen in this case, obviously, but it typically does. It's better, but it's not where it should be. You'd have to be blind (or a typical guy I guess) to not get that. I'd give you a great article showcasing what I'm talking about but we should keep it on topic - so in that regard this specific case is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dras_Keto Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Either way I do not think they specifically and purposefully excluded females on this, I do not get how one article like this is becoming such an issue Its cause the issue has nothing to do with inclusiveness, fairness or equality. Its all about power and control and a perceived need for retribution thats been blow so far out of proportion its completely ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 especially since the game overall does a good job of having both males and females featured throughout That's exactly why it's distressing. If you're going to hand draw 8 new characters for art, you can't make at least one female? They're better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 It's better, but it's not where it should be. You'd have to be blind (or a typical guy I guess) to not get that. I'd give you a great article showcasing what I'm talking about but we should keep it on topic - so in that regard this specific case is a problem. Would anybody be up in arms if it showed all females? Doubt it. In this case (and these things should be looked at case-by-case) it doesn't matter if it is all male, all female, or a mix. It's really not relevant to the overall message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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