To the Devs working on Disciplines: Remember the NGE?

[Max_Killjoy]

Most of your arguments come down to claiming the person you quotes was attacking you personally in some way, yet you spend an entire post talking about elitests and how all hardcore PvErs are just e-peen stroking teenagers. You have a double standard for yourself that includes keeping the game the way it works best for you and the minority of players on your side while discounting the great benefits to the majority.

 

No, I complained about the e-peen stroking teenagers and smug elitists who look down on everyone else in the game who doesn't do things their way, many of whom happen to be hardcore PvP and raid players.

[AlixMV]

You also need to ask yourself, who was asking for this change? The customers or the employees? Because ever lame excuse I've seen it was "it will make it easier for us" and not "our customers were asking for"

 

Companies that only make changes because customers ask for them are reactive, not proactive. Not only that, but customers will not always think of things that improve their QoL.

 

It's a terrible way to do business.

 

Try again.

Edited October 15, 2014 by AlixMV

[pquadro]

Again, love how "doesn't agree with our assessment of the specific skills" = "doesn't know how the skills work". The skills have tooltips that make seeing what they do trivial.

 

I don't object to proper game balance, or making the skill system more "future proof". I don't object to the basic theory of how they're going to do it. What I do object to is burning down the entire forest to kill half a dozen trees.

 

I don't dismiss what you enjoy about the game or how you play. What I do dismiss is how certain people keeping citing the requirements of those parts of the game as the only valid criteria by which to judge a build -- and thereby implicitly dismissing anyone else's priorities.

 

As for blah blah blah, look at what I'm replying to -- everything he posts comes down to "It must be this way because it must be this way because it must be this way" and "you're wrong because you don't agree with me".

 

 

 

 

I'm trying to figure out how it's selfish to suggest that there must be a way to fix the problems that exist and future-proof the skill system -- thus benefiting several segments of the playerbase -- while not removing something that a different segment of the playerbase really enjoys.

 

 

Because that something was never part of the intened gsmeplay

[Max_Killjoy]

Because that something was never part of the intened gsmeplay

 

People keep saying that, and I keep thinking... did Bioware really think, to the last person, that every player would max out one tree and that no player would prefer parts of multiple trees over the maximized single tree?

[Jadescythe]

People keep saying that, and I keep thinking... did Bioware really think, to the last person, that every player would max out one tree and that no player would prefer parts of multiple trees over the maximized single tree?

 

They actually specifically stated that hybrids weren't intended per se, but they were fine with leaving them in place so long as they didn't eclipse their target numbers. The issue now is that we keep finding too many hybrids that break their balance because we have so many more skill points to use at this point.

[Jimvinny]

People keep saying that, and I keep thinking... did Bioware really think, to the last person, that every player would max out one tree and that no player would prefer parts of multiple trees over the maximized single tree?

 

Perhaps not, but they definitely did not intend for those multi tree specs to be more powerful than a full tree build.

 

They've realized that trying to balance these multi tree builds is a futile waste of resources, and are now going to allocate those resources to other more deserving areas of the game. Simple as that.

[theUndead]

I think those of us that do know the OLD SWG and NGE knows the difference.

 

The point you seem not to understand is, PRE-NGE we had skill points, you could PICK as YOU liked.

 

PRE- 3.0 SWTOR, you have 55 points to do as you please with, PRE-NGE had 250 skill points.

 

POST 3.0 7 points, 5 are limited thus you have 2 points left..... REST is forced on you.

 

Post NGE, NO points what so ever.....

 

See...... still different ?...... It's the removal of CHOICE that we are talking about..... How hard can that be to understand.

 

No it's the removal of hybrids, not the removal of choice. Know the difference. Hybrids were never supposed to be a thing in this game because as it has been shown the devs simply can't balance them.

 

So, rather remove them and to be honest the game will be better for it imo. Bt the way what we had before, was the allusion of choice, not actual choice. Likewise I'll say this again, this system is no where near what happened in SWG and the vets need to remember that.

[Xeranos]

Yeah, I will never play another SOE game as long as John Smedley is alive. SWTOR learn from the biggest video game fail of all time. Don't make the same mistake.

[Max_Killjoy]

No it's the removal of hybrids, not the removal of choice. Know the difference. Hybrids were never supposed to be a thing in this game because as it has been shown the devs simply can't balance them.

 

So, rather remove them and to be honest the game will be better for it imo. Bt the way what we had before, was the allusion of choice, not actual choice. Likewise I'll say this again, this system is no where near what happened in SWG and the vets need to remember that.

 

"The allusion of choice"... I'll have to remember that if I ever need to write a postmodernist claptrap essay...

 

There is no difference between removing all hybrids and removing choice.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[theUndead]

"The allusion of choice"... I'll have to remember that if I ever need to write a postmodernist claptrap essay...

 

There is no difference between removing all hybrids and removing choice.

 

What? Don't know what you're talking about. Hybrids, as been pointed out to you was not intended, so the idea of "removing choice" is irrelevant because there was no choice to begin with.

 

This system in essence is about balance. The reason being, is that because of an experimental system created by players to create builds that were supposedly "unique", the results messed with overall class balnce. So this approach is to restore some balance.

 

But again there is a vast difference between what is considered choice and imbalanced game play.

[Max_Killjoy]

What? Don't know what you're talking about. Hybrids, as been pointed out to you was not intended, so the idea of "removing choice" is irrelevant because there was no choice to begin with.

 

This system in essence is about balance. The reason being, is that because of an experimental system created by players to create builds that were supposedly "unique", the results messed with overall class balnce. So this approach is to restore some balance.

 

But again there is a vast difference between what is considered choice and imbalanced game play.

 

 

Um... didn't have the choice? So I imagined all those decisions I made and points I designed?

[LordArtemis]

PvP and raiding is a minority portion of the players in your opinion? What else do players do LordArtemis? Craft? RP? Level an alt? Things which are independent of "balance"?

 

Oh come now Tux. I'm not saying something that hasn't already been said in almost every study and release in the last 8 years. The market has indeed changed, with a few notable differences, this is now the norm.

 

Even for casual PvEers, balance is necessary. If you don't have some balance, eventually people begin to cherry pick who gets to go.

 

Who gets to go...again, your speaking of progression. Group content is not something that is a large concern for casual solo players. Certainly not in the leveling process, which is the likely majority content for that sort of player.

 

I agree with you in that most players log in, play the game and are completely oblivious to the imbalances that exist...but that doesn't mean they don't need to be addressed. In time, those imbalances cause issues.

 

You misunderstand me. I fully support the changes and do believe they need to happen. Absolutely. I think that endgame and PVP is very important, and I also think the changes will indirectly benefit the majority of players in the long run....

 

...the potential of more content and a reduction in the amount of changes to abilities are two very big benefits of this change IMO.

 

And lets not put all of 3.0's change on "balance"..."balance" is hopefully a nice side effect of the changes, but the main goal (imo) was to remove hybrids and create trees/skills that could progress with a level cap increase without making hybrids an even bigger problem than they are now.

 

Fair enough. I agree it seems that was one of the major goals of the change.

[Delta_V]

Oh come now Tux. I'm not saying something that hasn't already been said in almost every study and release in the last 8 years. The market has indeed changed, with a few notable differences, this is now the norm.

 

 

 

Who gets to go...again, your speaking of progression. Group content is not something that is a large concern for casual solo players. Certainly not in the leveling process, which is the likely majority content for that sort of player.

 

 

 

You misunderstand me. I fully support the changes and do believe they need to happen. Absolutely. I think that endgame and PVP is very important, and I also think the changes will indirectly benefit the majority of players in the long run....

 

...the potential of more content and a reduction in the amount of changes to abilities are two very big benefits of this change IMO.

 

 

 

Fair enough. I agree it seems that was one of the major goals of the change.

 

Let's not forget the very real improvement to the leveling experience, which will affect a *lot* of players. By eliminating the potential for hybrids, we can get our current Level 20-something ability at Level 10, and our current Level 45 ability at Level 26. Not having to wait until Level 30+ for your character to really feel like a tank or healer will be amazing.

[MiaRB]

changing over to the new disciplines system will be one of the smartest/best things the Devs have done since launch. hybrids have been a problem since day one and the amount of man/woman hours wasted on killing hybrids and otherwise trying to balance such a freeform system has to be enormous.

[theUndead]

Um... didn't have the choice? So I imagined all those decisions I made and points I designed?

 

Those are not "designs" they are just the reshuffling of points. I was saying that it is not supposed to be like that.

[LordArtemis]

Let's not forget the very real improvement to the leveling experience, which will affect a *lot* of players. By eliminating the potential for hybrids, we can get our current Level 20-something ability at Level 10, and our current Level 45 ability at Level 26. Not having to wait until Level 30+ for your character to really feel like a tank or healer will be amazing.

 

Yea, thats also a good point. I keep forgetting, but a few folks mentioned that. Will be nice to have a more iconic ability a bit sooner in the leveling line.

[ekwalizer]

The current system is not free will. I can't stress this enough. It is only a pretty poor illusion of free will, as it always has been in every single game that used this pathetic nightmare called the ability tree. I didn't think it could be worse, but Bioware found a way to make it so....lets put a class in a class and THEN have more trees with one rule set.

 

Yea, that will not cause any balance problems.

 

It's like hitting myself in the head with a hammer to get rid of a headache.

 

The new system proposed at least removes this ridiculous illusion and provides the proper progression like most sane games....if you don't have choice, don't pretend to have choice.

 

I can live with this lack of choice because I have lived with a lack of choice for years now. At least now it's no longer an illusion. It is what it always has been...you get the skills they want to give you, period, and they will throw you a few token bones so you can at least have some variety in your choice.

 

But not much.

 

LordA is spot on here. The NGE eliminated MBH/CM4000, etc, etc (as well as entire professions). We don't have that here; you can naturally be a healing bounty hunter. But what you can't be is a Bounty Hunter/Operative. The "choice" argument is flimsy at best.

 

Are there *some* players out there who have taken the time to perfect a hybrid build within their Advanced Class? Sure. But the overwhelming majority are "straight ticket" with a splattering of left-over points assigned to the same skill boxes as nearly everyone else in their AC.

 

I played SWG from start to finish. By early 2005 (a year after the CU hit), the game was already hemorrhaging subs to WoW. What most of the old vets who quit when the NGE hit never got to know was the SWG of 2007-2011 was far better than the SWG of 2003-2005. Did we all miss the 32 professions? Sure, but can you attempt to imagine the nightmare of balancing a game with 25 or so combat classes and viable hybrids amongst most of those? But those of us who stayed, got over it and relearned to play the game, and participate in the community that we enjoyed.

 

This game is NOT SWG and up until about 6 weeks ago, never attempted to do anything SWG related.

 

Go play any of these, but start with a pre-CU Emulator. Then come back and tell us if SWG in it's original form was the game that you remember.

 

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/index.php

http://www.galaxiesreborn.com/

http://www.swganh.com/

http://www.projectswg.com/cmps_index.php

Edited October 16, 2014 by ekwalizer

[Max_Killjoy]

Yea, thats also a good point. I keep forgetting, but a few folks mentioned that. Will be nice to have a more iconic ability a bit sooner in the leveling line.

 

Personally, that's not any kind of selling point... I don't care about "iconic" and "identity" and so on.

[theUndead]

Personally, that's not any kind of selling point... I don't care about "iconic" and "identity" and so on.

 

Really? So you don't care about identity? That's interesting because didn't you complain to me in a previous post that choice was being taken away? So which is it then, do you want to be unique or not?

[ghoul_drool]

The only way they could have done disciplines differently is if they added a new top-tier ability on top of the skill tree top tier abilities, one that was SO powerful that people who didn't take all points in the same tree to reach it would be completely gimping themselves compared to those who did.

 

But then, that's what disciplines does, as well. It actually does it better, since it presses the top tier abilities as they are now downwards, towards level 26 according to the stream, and adds new top tiers that replace old mainstays like crushing darkness and barrage with more powerful versions in order to avoid ability clutter. Not too bad.

[LordArtemis]

Personally, that's not any kind of selling point... I don't care about "iconic" and "identity" and so on.

 

Fair enough, but you would have to admit it is logical to assume most folks do, at least most of the casual players.

[Max_Killjoy]

Really? So you don't care about identity? That's interesting because didn't you complain to me in a previous post that choice was being taken away? So which is it then, do you want to be unique or not?

 

I was speaking of "identity" (thus the quotes) as others have used it in discussing the Disciplines -- "your character is a Healer, or a Tank, or a Damager, there's no place for anything else". The character is X, so it gets ability Y, just like every other X, and ability Y is part of X's "identity".

Edited October 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[LordArtemis]

I was speaking of "identity" as others have used it in discussing the Disciplines -- "your character is a Healer, or a Tank, or a Damager, there's no place for anything else".

 

Ah, so you are speaking of the Trinity? Yes, it is obvious that the trinity is not as popular as it used to be, especially as the hardcore set begins to shrink while the casual set seems to dominate modern games.

 

But, one could argue that allowing better abilities early on, the trinity actually becomes viable in open world PVE for casual players.

[Max_Killjoy]

Ah, so you are speaking of the Trinity? Yes, it is obvious that the trinity is not as popular as it used to be, especially as the hardcore set begins to shrink while the casual set seems to dominate modern games.

 

But, one could argue that allowing better abilities early on, the trinity actually becomes viable in open world PVE for casual players.

 

In a way, the "iconic" thing also reminds me of the people who get torqued over a character wearing "the wrong gear" for their class, although that complaint seems to have mostly gone away over time.

[Malastare]

I was speaking of "identity" (thus the quotes) as others have used it in discussing the Disciplines -- "your character is a Healer, or a Tank, or a Damager, there's no place for anything else". The character is X, so it gets ability Y, just like every other X, and ability Y is part of X's "identity".

 

Identity is more than just forcing you to look or behave a certain way. It's about creating a group of abilities which interact with and benefit from each other in interesting ways.

 

This is why hybrids were either overpowered or weak. The overpowered hybrids exploited situations where you could use points in other trees to amplify the bonuses beyond the designed ranges. All of the rest of the hybrids (including all of yours, it appears) lacked these interactions. You picked the flashy abilities that served some obvious purpose, but lacked the interactions that would make them truly effective.

 

While its far from a community favorite, Thundering Blast is a decent damaging ability. By itself, its not particularly impressive ability. Fine for leading off an attack, perhaps, but otherwise a bit of a pain. However, when you buff it with other high-tier abilities and set up all the rest of its interactions, it can get rather impressive. While I hate the idea of rotations, I'm all for skill combinations. The Aflliction-ThunderingBlast-ChainLightning is a great combo which hits for 8k-15k depending on your gear and level, with the bonus of lingering DoT and an area effect. Without all the tree abilities to support it, that combo will take twice as long, and hit for 30-50% less damage.

 

That's the sort of thing you're missing out on with your hybrids. You got the play style you wanted, but you aren't seeing that those abilities you have aren't living up to their potential. And since you're only interested in Leveling and Dailies, you don't really notice, because you have no reference for what it was designed to feel like. You don't want the high level abilities because they don't feel impressive, but it seems clear that you've never actually felt them work as designed, and you are happy to remain uneducated on that.

 

But in the end, the debate here isn't about your preferences. You are free to have your preferences. However, you're not entitled to demand that your preferences are preserved to the detriment of the vast majority of players. This isn't "burning the forest to kill a handful of trees". This is "killing a handful of trees before they burn down the forest". You, unfortunately, are a scraggly bush living in the middle of those trees.