Disciplines May Mean More Variety

[ML_DoubleTap]

There was a lot of doom and gloom initially with the blog that quickly highlighted the new discipline system. People worried about the death of hybrids and with that the death of variety and a new era of cookie cutters. I'd say contrary to that I think this may bring more variety.

 

In the live skill tree system we have very few actual decisions. Most trees have limited 'free' points to spend as desired. If you go the hybrid approach you're generally gimping yourself in most cases as you generally lose more than you gain. This also meant that you generally knew all of the tools a certain player brought to the table.

 

Under the new system the utility points add a pretty wide variety of flavor to each class and because all three disciplines have them it will be difficult to immediately know how to handle most situations. Add to that the ability to reassign utility points during a match (I believe?) you can actually adapt on the fly. Facing an aoe heavy team? Take aoe reduction(I'm assuming this will be a utility for those classes that had it previously).

 

This could be a very good thing for PvP in my opinion. It should also allow more flexibility in PvE where certain classes/specs were preferred for certain fights due to utility in their tree.

 

Typed on my phone so I apologize in advance for any typos or words that don't make sense

[Essence_of_Light]

I'm personally looking forward to disciplines. 3.0 couldn't come any sooner.

[GatorAndy]

I like the look of the disciplines system, but am sad to see my favorite sniper spec (leth/eng hybrid) going away (more than likely, I assume).

 

I like that I will be able to respec my utility points without reselecting my discipline. (although at that point, it's really only one extra click I guess.)

[dscount]

Anyone have a LINK to review the presentation again? I missed the first half and wanted to review the numbers and allocation details.

[ML_DoubleTap]

Anyone have a LINK to review the presentation again? I missed the first half and wanted to review the numbers and allocation details.

 

Dulfy has a write up with all three discipline trees and utilities. To see the video just go to twitch.TV/swtor and select the most recent video in the list.

[OrionSol]

If by more you mean less. Then yes, you are exactly right.

[ML_DoubleTap]

If by more you mean less. Then yes, you are exactly right.

 

Keeping putting you fingers in your ears and yelling lalalalala I can't hear you.

[Vashforth]

I am not opposed to the new system at all so don't get me wrong. If they REALLY want more variety with the new utility skill system then they are going to HAVE to force players to make sacrifices. If there are 7 utilities that increase dps in some form or fashion, well guess what, that is what every dps will pick. Players need to be forced to weigh their play style when choosing which utilities to pick without losing efficiency if the system is to work. Is this possible? I have no idea. Edited October 8, 2014 by Vashforth

[ML_DoubleTap]

I am not opposed to the new system at all so don't get me wrong. If they REALLY want more variety with the new utility skill system then they are going to HAVE to force players to make sacrifices. If there are 7 utilities that increase dps in some form or fashion, well guess what, that is what every dps will pick. Players need to be forced to weigh their play style when choosing which utilities to pick without losing efficiency if the system is to work. Is this possible? I have no idea.

 

Not necessarily because you do zero DPS when you're dead. More so in PvP you'll see people give up a little damage for better survivability or crowd control but it happens in PvE as well.

[Pscyon]

I guess it will be an improvement for some and a setback for others. Personally I play a Sorcerer with most of my points put into Madness with 6 points in Lightning and 3 in Corruption. It's just enough to get a couple of nice passives, but not enough to gain any additional utility. If the current preview of Sorcerers' discipline path is representative of the final one, I'll actually end up better off than I am now.

[ML_DoubleTap]

I guess it will be an improvement for some and a setback for others. Personally I play a Sorcerer with most of my points put into Madness with 6 points in Lightning and 3 in Corruption. It's just enough to get a couple of nice passives, but not enough to gain any additional utility. If the current preview of Sorcerers' discipline path is representative of the final one, I'll actually end up better off than I am now.

 

I think that will be the case for the majority.

[Meraxos]

The primary function of Disciplines is to give the Devs greater ability to control specs and prevent players from finding unexpected synergies.

 

Everybody who takes a certain discipline is channeled down a specific path except for utility choices which are easy to limit or control. The few utility choices that are actually powerful will be taken by everybody. Specs become much more standardized.

 

In mature MMOs the players who have been at high level for a long time become increasingly focused on "balance" and are very vocal about any perceived imbalance. Unfortunately, attempts like this to better "balance" classes usually end in failure and make for a duller game.

 

Look at it this way: everything in your discipline path except utility selections will be automatic so they could actually be moved to your trainer. Putting them on a discipline "path" gives a poor illusion of choice. The few utility selections now replace the skill trees as the only thing the player actually selects.

 

Like all the simplification in WoW the Devs will always spin these changes as "more choice". It's laughable how many players parrot those claims.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Meraxos

[ML_DoubleTap]

The primary function of Disciplines is to give the Devs greater ability to control specs and prevent players from finding unexpected synergies.

 

Everybody who takes a certain discipline is channeled down a specific path except for utility choices which are easy to limit or control. The few utility choices that are actually powerful will be taken by everybody. Specs become much more standardized.

 

In mature MMOs the players who have been at high level for a long time become increasingly focused on "balance" and are very vocal about any perceived imbalance. Unfortunately, attempts like this to better "balance" classes usually end in failure and make for a duller game.

 

Look at it this way: everything in your discipline path except utility selections will be automatic so they could actually be moved to your trainer. Putting them on a discipline "path" gives a poor illusion of choice. The few utility selections now replace the skill trees as the only thing the player actually selects.

 

Like all the simplification in WoW the Devs will always spin these changes as "more choice". It's laughable how many players parrot those claims.

 

And skill trees didn't give a poor illusion of choice? How many different specs per AC are represented at the highest level of play? Maybe 5 per class? I'll bet we'll have more than that with raid groups and PvP teams optimizing utilities per fight.

 

Less overall diversity but more viable diversity. Maybe that would have been a better way to put it.

[Alphasgimaone]

There's probably only a 5-10% deviation amongst all specs/tree builds now. I don't see how it can get much worse.

 

Let's be realistic; as it is now, there is clearly one favored tree for each AC per game-type. Within those trees, I would bet 95-97% of the all the trees are identical. Those that deviate usually just replace one skill for another. That's 2/3 skill points out of 46. Are there hybrids? Yes. But hybrids are mostly situational and not nearly as popular as people are insinuating. Also, the hybrid builds are also all the same. Variety? Now? There is none.

 

However, just by going what was shown of sorc alone, it would seem Lightning is going to be way more viable for PvP and both DPS will be equally viable for PvE. Now obviously, since one of the trees is healing, there won't be equal distribution across all three specs, but I bet it ends up better than it is now. I might even run lightning for awhile now. I've hardly played it at all.

 

However, the utilities offer way more customization than they did before. Even the middle tier (let alone the bottom), offers access to utility skills that were high enough in the trees that no hybrid build could reasonably grant access to--if even possibly. Players will be able to select 3/4 skills across the trees that would have otherwise been impossible before. And in some cases, decisions are going to be tough and ultimately come down to play-style. While the skill sections are going to all be uniform, the utility section will eventually come down to individual taste more than it does FOTM.

 

Of course, with only seven selections and a limited number of options, there's only a finite number of possible combinations. But I bet there will be a larger percentage of the combinations represented than there is now.

 

So I think OP is totally correct.

[kongol]

Keeping putting you fingers in your ears and yelling lalalalala I can't hear you.

 

yes you have been doing that alot...

[LordArtemis]

I dont think it is that odd to contend that most folks go with builds. Those that do go hybrid usually ALSO use builds.

 

The kind of choice and variety this change will remove doesn't really exist in the game at this time...only the ability to choose...the reality is that it is likely most folks do not.

 

Therefore I think, even with the loss of some choice I believe this will not really cause most players any real grief. The only real concern, IMO, is how will the current abilities change, what junk abilities will be force fed (speculative naturally) and how much real "utility" will be provided in the utility talents.

[Meraxos]

And skill trees didn't give a poor illusion of choice? How many different specs per AC are represented at the highest level of play? Maybe 5 per class? I'll bet we'll have more than that with raid groups and PvP teams optimizing utilities per fight.

 

Less overall diversity but more viable diversity. Maybe that would have been a better way to put it.

If that's the case then a better approach would have been to re-vamp the skill trees, make them more interesting, extend them 5 levels higher etc. But, if you worship at the holy alter of "balance" that can be very hard to do, I admit.

 

And this kind of thing is always spun as "less choice but more meaningful choice". It's a fairly non-nonsensical concept. Less choice is less choice, period. This is about "balance" and control, not about choice.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Meraxos

[Deewe]

Disciplines May Mean More Variety

Only if we get multi-specs which we won't until eventually later on.

 

Otherwise expect the same cookie cutter templates.

[azudelphi]

Only if we get multi-specs which we won't until eventually later on.

 

Otherwise expect the same cookie cutter templates.

 

I think, could be wrong, that OP has mentioned elsewhere that it's an increase in the variety of effective specs.

 

That is to say balancing the Telekinetics spec with the Balance spec of a Sage (just to pick two specs for purposes of example, not saying anything quantitatively), means both will be effective in PVP and PVE. So it won't just be cookie cutter "All Sages Must be <whatever spec> for End Game" or "You will get stomped if you choose <whatever spec> for warzones"...

 

So you will have a greater diversity of the existing primary specs as opposed to the FotM trend for DPS.

 

Also, disciplines are a step towards multi-spec. Out of combat, switch disciplines, skill points are auto assigned. Just have to do the utilities and quick bars.

Edited October 8, 2014 by azudelphi

[oofalong]

If by more you mean less. Then yes, you are exactly right.

 

It may technically be true that Disciplines means there are fewer spec varieties. After all some one could have spec'ed as 12/12/12 or 15/0/15 (note this one doesn't add to 36). There are hundreds if not thousands of combinations currently (I am too lazy to do the exact math). However, the vast majority of these specs are sub-optimal. Disciplines appears to offer greater variety of optimal/worthwhile specs. While there are a few instance of viable hybrids right now, I believe Disciplines will better allow us to manage and vary our specs than currently available.