If you REALLY want to draw players in.....

[zaskar]

None of these suggestions solve the problem that GSF was designed to solve. A completely new revenue stream that is designed for F2P from the ground up.

 

Without releasing any figures we'll never know for sure; the grand pool that has been talked about in EA quarterly conference calls and in their 10-Q reports shows a fairly substantial uptick after GSF release. This could be many different reasons but I tend to think GSF performed well at the start.

 

You would have to have a mid eight figure paycheck ready to be signed for EA to ok BioWare Austin to spend the MILLIONS of dollars required to add the minimum support for another control system. I've said this elsewhere & I'll say it again. Go read about the problems and giant black hole that the devs of Star Citizen have had to invest and travel to add the basics of HOTAS support to their game that was designed in the first place to support something else but a mouse and keyboard.

 

/broken record

[AlrikFassbauer]

Personally, I believe that these new changes go at least into the right direction.

 

I believe that the gap should be closed a bit more, because I believe that people might not want to get the feeling of being inferior to others.

 

( In ground PvP, I often get the impression - at least from the forums here - that making others feel inferioor is what most ground PvP people really want. )

 

Especially with a low frustration tolerance, the feeling to be inferior to aces can be very harmful to Newbies, imho.

[LordArtemis]

Personally, I believe that these new changes go at least into the right direction.

 

I believe that the gap should be closed a bit more, because I believe that people might not want to get the feeling of being inferior to others.

 

( In ground PvP, I often get the impression - at least from the forums here - that making others feel inferioor is what most ground PvP people really want. )

 

Especially with a low frustration tolerance, the feeling to be inferior to aces can be very harmful to Newbies, imho.

 

I think that, if they boosted the rewards even higher that might make a difference. Right now, even with the changes it would still not progress a player fast enough for them to stick with it.

 

There is also the option of going with a bolster.

[Verain]

I'm sure many people would love this (not me personally though), but I highly doubt the engine can handle that. It can't even handle properly updating positions, such a huge amount of calculations would probably make GSF unplayable.

 

I actually think if implemented right that idea would be amazing, but exactly as you say, there's no chance of that. They would have had to design that way from the ground up, it would greatly apply loads to machines in ways that aren't tested, etc. While joysticks are out of scope because they are expensive, what LA describes there is so pie in the sky that it literally is a game called Battlefront, coming soon to PC! And maybe consoles, I guess.

 

 

There's simply no way. They would have to reimplement everything, from pretty much scratch, and they have a relatively general purpose engine. The games that CAN offer that variability of scale cut a bunch of OTHER corners, after all.

 

 

 

I think that, if they boosted the rewards even higher that might make a difference. Right now, even with the changes it would still not progress a player fast enough for them to stick with it.

 

The rewards are high enough right now for MANY players to "stick with it", so ramping them up will UNQUESTIONABLY cause more to do so. That's a pretty logical consequence. I would say that they could ramp them up more, and that it would make a better experience for newer players, and (IMO) probably grab a few more people. But the proposed changes are substantial, and they may just wish to be conservative.

 

 

 

There is also the option of going with a bolster.

 

No there is not. We are MMO guys who use the term "gear", but that is not what this is. This means that technically achieving bolster would be a real nightmare, unlike the stat-bags that are the ground game gear pieces (which have ALSO caused tons of trouble- when I went to try to figure out how bolster works I found various pvp or pve guys complaining about how bolster did or did not work in this or that zone).

 

But the bigger issue is that bolster doesn't actually damage anything much. Bolster in warzones allows players to compete on somewhat even-ish footing, but warzones are only part of pvp, and obviously only part of the ground game. Yes, you can overperform for your gear level in greens, but if you went to a world pvp zone and fought, you'd get crushed, and if you went to some raid, you'd be useless. You still have plenty of reason to get geared- it is just party ignored in this one specific situation.

 

 

Meanwhile, GSF queues ARE THE GAME. If you had "bolster", and somehow you made that work technically (good luck, lol), the end result would be that you would gain nothing by gearing up in GSF- because every GSF play moment takes place inside GSF battles.

 

It's also worth pointing out that the rate of the GSF components increasing your survival is on average TRIVIAL compared to a tier of ground game stuff. The benefits of moving from a totally nude ship to one with full mastery are present, but nowhere close to comparing a level 1 to a geared 55. The benefits of moving from a ship with about 25k req earned to a full mastered (150k) ship are FAR LESS, because of how powerful just the first few upgrades- with 1/6th the progress, you have over half the power, easily.

 

So gear is already pretty thin in this game, with a couple exceptions (such as charged plating being vastly over effective against new players who don't have arp weapons or the canniness to understand that fact, and whose penalty is a 99% damage reduction that is even less obvious as the UI doesn't distinguish visually between shield damage and hull damage). Outside of those exceptions- which are pretty easy to solve without TOO much req spent, but the req must be spent in ways that aren't obvious to new players- the gain is just not that large anyway.

 

 

The solution is NEVER bolster. In fact, it's a testament to how generally weakly designed the gearing in the ground game was that players think that bolster is a good idea there, either- their conflicting desires to bribe with better gear and also have a reasonable playing field has really yielded a bunch of nonsense there, and bolster is a pretty poor bandaid. Cheaper gearing, unlocked components, the ability to gain some pieces without as much drama, faster req, cheaper ships, are all gearing based mitigations that would work pretty well, and the devs are actually rolling out exactly this. Better tutorials, pve missions, the ability to have a good practice mode, the ability to queue into the training scenario with a group of players for training purposes- any of these would be VASTLY better, but we don't have any of them on the horizon. Cross server queuing would be the best of all, but again, no plans yet.

[LordArtemis]

I actually think if implemented right that idea would be amazing, but exactly as you say, there's no chance of that. They would have had to design that way from the ground up, it would greatly apply loads to machines in ways that aren't tested, etc. While joysticks are out of scope because they are expensive, what LA describes there is so pie in the sky that it literally is a game called Battlefront, coming soon to PC! And maybe consoles, I guess.

 

Thats completely fair Verain. What I speak of is very close to BF2, and is inspired by that actual game.

 

The rewards are high enough right now for MANY players to "stick with it", so ramping them up will UNQUESTIONABLY cause more to do so. That's a pretty logical consequence. I would say that they could ramp them up more, and that it would make a better experience for newer players, and (IMO) probably grab a few more people. But the proposed changes are substantial, and they may just wish to be conservative.

 

Again, fair enough. I certainly hope they reach the goals they wish, and you guys get plenty of new players to play with.

 

 

No there is not. We are MMO guys who use the term "gear", but that is not what this is. This means that technically achieving bolster would be a real nightmare, unlike the stat-bags that are the ground game gear pieces (which have ALSO caused tons of trouble- when I went to try to figure out how bolster works I found various pvp or pve guys complaining about how bolster did or did not work in this or that zone).

 

But the bigger issue is that bolster doesn't actually damage anything much. Bolster in warzones allows players to compete on somewhat even-ish footing, but warzones are only part of pvp, and obviously only part of the ground game. Yes, you can overperform for your gear level in greens, but if you went to a world pvp zone and fought, you'd get crushed, and if you went to some raid, you'd be useless. You still have plenty of reason to get geared- it is just party ignored in this one specific situation.

 

 

Meanwhile, GSF queues ARE THE GAME. If you had "bolster", and somehow you made that work technically (good luck, lol), the end result would be that you would gain nothing by gearing up in GSF- because every GSF play moment takes place inside GSF battles.

 

It's also worth pointing out that the rate of the GSF components increasing your survival is on average TRIVIAL compared to a tier of ground game stuff. The benefits of moving from a totally nude ship to one with full mastery are present, but nowhere close to comparing a level 1 to a geared 55. The benefits of moving from a ship with about 25k req earned to a full mastered (150k) ship are FAR LESS, because of how powerful just the first few upgrades- with 1/6th the progress, you have over half the power, easily.

 

So gear is already pretty thin in this game, with a couple exceptions (such as charged plating being vastly over effective against new players who don't have arp weapons or the canniness to understand that fact, and whose penalty is a 99% damage reduction that is even less obvious as the UI doesn't distinguish visually between shield damage and hull damage). Outside of those exceptions- which are pretty easy to solve without TOO much req spent, but the req must be spent in ways that aren't obvious to new players- the gain is just not that large anyway.

 

 

The solution is NEVER bolster. In fact, it's a testament to how generally weakly designed the gearing in the ground game was that players think that bolster is a good idea there, either- their conflicting desires to bribe with better gear and also have a reasonable playing field has really yielded a bunch of nonsense there, and bolster is a pretty poor bandaid. Cheaper gearing, unlocked components, the ability to gain some pieces without as much drama, faster req, cheaper ships, are all gearing based mitigations that would work pretty well, and the devs are actually rolling out exactly this. Better tutorials, pve missions, the ability to have a good practice mode, the ability to queue into the training scenario with a group of players for training purposes- any of these would be VASTLY better, but we don't have any of them on the horizon. Cross server queuing would be the best of all, but again, no plans yet.

 

All fair points....perhaps a defensive bolster would be useful, but I admit, bolster was not done well for ground PVP. It was really just a thought.

 

You realize Verain that we may have agreed on a few points here. Someone rolled over in their grave somewhere i bet

 

I would just make the point that my suggestions are borne from a desire to improve GSF and increase the amount of players that play this game. Naturally I do not corner the market on good ideas, in fact most of my ideas probably stink.

 

But you know me...I'll keep posting them.

Edited October 13, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Asbetos]

The rewards are high enough right now for MANY players to "stick with it", so ramping them up will UNQUESTIONABLY cause more to do so. That's a pretty logical consequence.

 

That is true, but giving higher rewards means that players go through the content faster and, in MMOs, most people lose interest when they are done grinding things. That goes especially for the average players that don't stand much of a chance in collecting MVP medals unless we see the matchmaker working properly. The net result you have is more people for a shorter time instead of fewer people that stick around longer. I fear that if they don't start adding content, the Requisition gain increase will only backfire.

[AlrikFassbauer]

That is true, but giving higher rewards means that players go through the content faster and, in MMOs, most people lose interest when they are done grinding things.

 

My inner cynic responds to that with the question : "Then why are those who have maxed out their ship still there ?"

 

I guess it's "only" the hardcore3 crowd which remains there - those who play GSF because it's fun to them !

 

The far darker answer would be that there are people out those who love others feeling frustrated, hurt, decimated, whatever. Some of them might be playing ground PvP and / or GSF.

[Verain]

The far darker answer would be that there are people out those who love others feeling frustrated, hurt, decimated, whatever. Some of them might be playing ground PvP and / or GSF.

 

Do you guys NOT want to frustrate your enemies? What the heck? Of course I love winning. I mean, this logic applies to chess. You have all the pieces, are the people just playing because they want to crush their opponents?

 

 

...yes?

 

.....That's the game?

[Kcin_Trebla]

Do you guys NOT want to frustrate your enemies? What the heck? Of course I love winning. I mean, this logic applies to chess. You have all the pieces, are the people just playing because they want to crush their opponents?

...yes?

.....That's the game?

 

Well... pal... what I want from GSF is actually just to have some fun.

And lately I'm really not getting it, with matches ending 50-to-10 (or even worse) in a matter of 2 minutes, or having the full capturing map in 1 colour in seconds with no chances for the other team whatever they may try...

People scoring 12+ kills and others (in both teams) having barely the chanche to press their fwd key... well...

 

This is not fun for me.

 

And that's why (no matter what, conquer points, incetives to gainings...) I'm playing just about 2 or 3 matches per week, barely just to keep the hand on it, waiting for something to be done for this ridicoulous balance nightmare GSF has become.

[Verain]

That is true, but giving higher rewards means that players go through the content faster and, in MMOs, most people lose interest when they are done grinding things. That goes especially for the average players that don't stand much of a chance in collecting MVP medals unless we see the matchmaker working properly. The net result you have is more people for a shorter time instead of fewer people that stick around longer. I fear that if they don't start adding content, the Requisition gain increase will only backfire.

 

 

I had a response to this typed up, but the server maint actually ate it completely. More fool me for allowing scripting.

 

The gist here is this: You are absolutely correct that this is a common motivation in MMOs, but it isn't the only one. I see two shippers play repeatedly and stay two-shippers, and the ones that quit tend to quit as two shippers, and the ones that do not instead get a full field and play with all of them.

 

This means that the ramp is very steep, and many stop trying to climb it.

 

 

Meanwhile, I don't see many players get a full mastered ship and call it quits for GSF, or even a full mastered stable and call it quits. Some will stop playing for Reasons, but I simply don't see the "I finished, therefore I stopped" type of play very much.

 

 

The devs are aware, however, which is why the 30% boost is not likely the 65% boost that would probably actually be better. They probably are worried about this, because the PROGRESSION of GSF is very thin. Unlike the ground game, where your gameplay is modified by different environments and different enemies on different planets, and your leveling changes the moves available and optimal, GSF is the SAME game each time, with depth and diversity coming from everything BUT that. I mean, look at the maps. There are only eight maps in the whole game (Kuat Mesas Domination, Lost Shipyards Domination, Kuat Mesas Domination, Denon Domination, Kuat Mesas Domination, Lost Shipyards Team Death Match, Kuat Mesas Team Death Match, and Kuat Mesas Domination), yet they are different based on what you are playing, what components you are fielding, who your opponents are, team makeup, etc. Each game of GSF is VASTLY more different from each other than every raid in SWTOR is from another copy of itself, and that's your whole experience diversity.

 

I've said in pretty much every thread that they should make all components unlocked (the low level) by default. Unlocking a component is VERY expensive, especially for a fresh player. The noobs that start with two ships and end their play with two ships have never seen anything besides Starguard with rapid fire laser and heavy laser, both totally unupgraded, and Novadive with.... rapid fire laser. That's awful. This is the most frustrating and skill based gun in the game, and even if you are great with it it doesn't reward you properly. Why would you start a new player with this, and then make the upgrade cost 1000 and trying another gun cost 2000? How are you supposed to know that buying the other gun is the BEST POSSIBLE call?

 

More importantly, for people who play a few dozen games and that is it, imagine how many more they would play if they could try out all the components and see which one they liked, without INVESTING first.

 

 

Also frustrating is the power delta between no upgrades and some upgrades. A mastered ship compared to a bone stock ship is a small power difference compared to most MMOs, and absolutely trivial next to skill difference, but it's still pretty big. A mastered ship compared to partial upgrade, however, is a minor difference. If you take away the top tier upgrade of all three expensive systems and the engine component, instead of 150k you are spending 95k- the ship is within 90% of the final version, at 2/3rds the cost. In fact, for 50k req you can have most of the benefits of a mastered ship. But compare that 50k ship to the 0k ship, and you get a difference almost as large as the 150k versus the 0... and the guy in that stock ship doesn't know HOW to spend his req right either, adding to the problem.

 

The biggest deltas in power are:

1- Making an engine component have a shorter cooldown. A 30 second barrel roll is ludicrous. Sure, fixing it costs 3500 req only, but a new player could EASILY not understand how important that is.

2- Armor piercing- a big problem with charged plating is that it has no animation to speak of (the ship sort of has the same little field around it that everything makes), and a debuff that you can't mouseover in normal play. Yes, every veteran knows it on sight, but a new player doesn't. This means you'll be shooting some guy and hitting for 400, and then hitting for 4, and you'll have to research why. Did you know that burst lasers and heavy lasers both ignore armor once you spend 18500 req on them? Did you know rocket pods do that for 1000? How about slug railgun for 8500? Everyone HERE does, but does the new player know to seek these components or ignore these targets? Does he understand he's making some rock-paper-scissors tradeoff by taking quads over heavies, or vice versa? We had, on THESE forums, GOOD players not understanding what armor was. We'd have people come in and state that the +health armor was better than the +dodge armor, because heavy lasers ignored the +dodge percent armor, but not the +health you got to keep. You might think this way if you look at the tooltips- there is a component called armor, and there is another tooltip that says "I ignore armor".

3- Distortion field on a scout versus any other shield on a scout.

4- Distortion field with missile break versus without.

 

A few others can get in that fight too, but those are the standouts.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, GSF isn't just about "how to level ships", and most new players ask how to FLY (or complain that it's impossible), not how to REQ. Even the clueless who think the game is full gear based normally spend time trying to soothe their bruised egos instead of actually getting the requisition they claim to be in need of, because they won't say it to themselves, but they know the skill difference is the big mountain. So I just don't see most players trying to figure out the fastest way to level their ships as a driving concern.... hence I think ramped up req gains will help us far more than they hurt us.

 

 

I think it's without argument that most players who play more than five games but quit before thirty quit with the two ships they started with, and MAYBE one more that they buy at random and don't like the bone stock version of. And I think the devs should really work on that.

[nyghtrunner]

Well... pal... what I want from GSF is actually just to have some fun.

And lately I'm really not getting it, with matches ending 50-to-10 (or even worse) in a matter of 2 minutes, or having the full capturing map in 1 colour in seconds with no chances for the other team whatever they may try...

People scoring 12+ kills and others (in both teams) having barely the chanche to press their fwd key... well...

 

This is not fun for me.

 

And that's why (no matter what, conquer points, incetives to gainings...) I'm playing just about 2 or 3 matches per week, barely just to keep the hand on it, waiting for something to be done for this ridicoulous balance nightmare GSF has become.

It all really depends. I certainly have my fair share of matches where I can hop in a Bloodmark/Spearpoint and not really do anything other than go for my savior medals, and let everyone else effectively do the 7 v 8 thing, but I usually have at least 1, sometimes multiple really good games on any given day.

 

I will also proactively swap sides in the cases where it's just a roflstomp for a few matches in a row, just to try to bring the competition more in line (It might seem arrogant to say, but I'm pretty damned good at this stupid mini-game. Not the best out there, but on a good day, I'm capable of putting a team on my back, even against some of the better pilots on my server).

 

And for me, those games where I HAVE to get in my Sting/FF, and try to be as lethal as possible, and it still ends up being a close game (win or lose)... Those are the games that keep me playing.

 

I think I'm probably in the minority when it comes to people who will just go do their own thing, and let the rest of the teams duke it out (I know a few people will just go all out, and look at it as something akin to a mercy killing, I think), but I don't have much interest in playing a game that's not competitive, or as I like to think of it, "a beautiful game". I don't care much about losing anymore, I don't care too much about my K : D, and have no problem flying against my friends/peers in order to make better, more competitive games, which I believe at this point, they all know (funny aside, my pub alts apparently had more notoriety as being lethal than my imp main until I started to out them as being me. A couple of pretty awesome reactions, really). Sure, I get frustrated, or make mini-vendetta lists, but I'd rather lose a close game than win one that's a blowout, so that's what I fly for. And I'm happy to joke around with people who get me in a joust or whatever. I often don't even remember the specific events, but I think it's awesome when someone is excited that they were able to get me. That sort of reaction means that they're having fun, and if they don't have fun, I don't have any more beautiful games, because the competition leaves.

 

I've also started to try to be more of a community presence on my server, and help people when they ask questions, provide positive feedback when my teammates do something well, congratulate opponents when they fly well, etc. I doubt it really makes much of a difference, but I've noticed the community on JC has been getting better recently. A lot of the old vets and aces are starting to fly again, and the community is... well, not exactly thriving, but it's a more competitive landscape recently than it had been for a very long time. It feels relatively healthy/faction-balanced right now, for which I am grateful.

 

I think Imp-side is slightly stronger than Pub-side, but the gap is narrowing, the games in general are getting better, and I'm having more fun.

 

To me, that's a massive win for all involved.

[nyghtrunner]

Also, I believe that, while not exciting to ME, per se, the req boosts are a good idea, especially upping the intro reward to being enough to actually buy another ship. I've seen people pull some sick stunts/numbers/etc on a Blackbolt/Novadive, but you have to heavily mod it from stock, and be a specific type of player to pull it off. It's not the most intuitive offensive weapon to me, at least. Strikes (especially the T1/T2) are, by I think most honest evaluations, one of the weakest ships in the game. I LOVE flying the T1, but I don't do it in a match I need to be competitive in.

 

So being able to get another ship almost right away is actually an awesome gift for the new player. My worry is that the new player won't understand how to use the gift they've been given.

[Verain]

ridicoulous balance nightmare GSF has become.

 

But your "balance nightmare" is having to compete in an open field. Those guys aren't cheating or doing something strange or exploiting magical builds, they just know how to fly and shoot.

 

 

And to me, having fun IS winning and blowing up opponents. Maybe, like you, if I wasn't winning a lot I wouldn't have fun. But I wouldn't blame my opponents. It's not MY job to provide a fun game for you, it's my job to render you spacedust. I wouldn't expect you would enjoy that, but yo yo dis be pvp.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Verain

[Verain]

So being able to get another ship almost right away is actually an awesome gift for the new player. My worry is that the new player won't understand how to use the gift they've been given.

 

In another thread I recommend that it be impossible to convert fleet to ship req until like 7k fleet req has been earned. And that ability should come with a big warning. If I queue in and instead of fighting a bunch of two shippers with unupgraded rapid fire lasers firing at 8km, I instead fight a bunch of two shippers with tier 2 rapid fire lasers firing at 8km, I will be very sad indeed.

[Kcin_Trebla]

But your "balance nightmare" is having to compete in an open field. Those guys aren't cheating or doing something strange or exploiting magical builds, they just know how to fly and shoot.

 

 

And to me, having fun IS winning and blowing up opponents. Maybe, like you, if I wasn't winning a lot I wouldn't have fun. But I wouldn't blame my opponents. It's not MY job to provide a fun game for you, it's my job to render you spacedust. I wouldn't expect you would enjoy that, but yo yo dis be pvp.

 

I'm not blaming pilots.

You have the right to space-dust whatever you can keep in your crosshairs long enough.

No issues about that. Ever.

I'm just astonished and confused in having a match-maker system that builds up teams with on one side 12 vets with 5 available ships each and most likely organized in groups and on the other side solo/new players with barely 2 ships... and the end of this is so predictable... (and just to make things clear: I don't have just 2 ships)

This happened so many times already that I don't even think to keep the count.

No matter the endings, winning or loosing, what I'm asking is some fun, some action, some nice competition... not matches that end in 2 mins with no hopes even for your more "weak" team-mates to have a chance to pull the trigger.

Do I sound really so odd in asking this?

 

Also: I guess those new pilots that in 10 matches get vaporized dozens of times each with no way even to hope something different will probably not have fun and bury the GSF for good once and for all...?

Edited October 14, 2014 by Kcin_Trebla

[nyghtrunner]

In another thread I recommend that it be impossible to convert fleet to ship req until like 7k fleet req has been earned. And that ability should come with a big warning. If I queue in and instead of fighting a bunch of two shippers with unupgraded rapid fire lasers firing at 8km, I instead fight a bunch of two shippers with tier 2 rapid fire lasers firing at 8km, I will be very sad indeed.

I completely agree, but it's not just this. You can blow your entire fleet grant on a "bad" ship. I'll be pretty sad if I start seeing T2 Strikes and GSs on bars of 3-shippers in a similar way I believe you would seeing RFLs with 2 upgrades. It's probably not AS bad to get the new ship, but you're still effectively wasting the initial grant on something you probably shouldn't be flying if you want to truly get into the competitive side of it.

 

I've wondered whether they should look at making the T2 GS, the T2 Strike, the T3 Bomber, and the T3 Scout only cost 2500 fleet req, and the rest cost the 5k, that way there's a huge clue to new players that "Hey! This cheaper ship isn't necessarily optimal".

 

I don't really know what the answer is, since what the new pilot needs most is experience in the cockpit, but giving them more req makes the mistakes less painful to learn from.

 

I know Stasie has the pretty awesome guide out there for gearing out ships, but I'm wondering if it might be worth while to put together some kind of list of things NOT to do, and put it up on the forums for people to read as we get closer to 3.0. Might not help at all, but it's a thought.

[MiaowZedong]

I completely agree, but it's not just this. You can blow your entire fleet grant on a "bad" ship. I'll be pretty sad if I start seeing T2 Strikes and GSs on bars of 3-shippers in a similar way I believe you would seeing RFLs with 2 upgrades. It's probably not AS bad to get the new ship, but you're still effectively wasting the initial grant on something you probably shouldn't be flying if you want to truly get into the competitive side of it.

 

I've wondered whether they should look at making the T2 GS, the T2 Strike, the T3 Bomber, and the T3 Scout only cost 2500 fleet req, and the rest cost the 5k, that way there's a huge clue to new players that "Hey! This cheaper ship isn't necessarily optimal".

 

I don't really know what the answer is, since what the new pilot needs most is experience in the cockpit, but giving them more req makes the mistakes less painful to learn from.

That just highlights the need to rebalance GSF, and not just a few tweaks here or there but a comprehensive balance pass, including redesigning some ships entirely—I'm especially thinking of the T2 gunship when I say this. The T2 GS is simply badly designed: its "strengths" are things that are in no situation better than a more standard gunship setup, and it loses some of the T1's very best components for them. Sure, you can make it work, but good pilots who fly one do so either for the achievement or the fun. Nobody ever used their T2 GS with double torps because the game was too hard to win in any other ship.

 

And while yes, redesigns can cause problems in the player base, the opportunity cost of doing nothing is really high, because GSF is definitely not becoming more popular.

 

Full disclosure: I had a match today where the "new players" explained they were just there for the conquest and couldn't care less about playing GSF. It was not fun.

Edited October 14, 2014 by MiaowZedong

[nyghtrunner]

I don't disagree that GSF needs a rebalance, but we're not going to get that any time soon. I'm just trying to think of something that could be done with minimal effort on the Dev front that makes sense, and might end up cluing new players in that right now, those ships aren't terribly good.

[LordArtemis]

That is true, but giving higher rewards means that players go through the content faster and, in MMOs, most people lose interest when they are done grinding things. That goes especially for the average players that don't stand much of a chance in collecting MVP medals unless we see the matchmaker working properly. The net result you have is more people for a shorter time instead of fewer people that stick around longer. I fear that if they don't start adding content, the Requisition gain increase will only backfire.

 

Well, I would only say that the main content of this feature is YOU....meaning those that play. The ship upgrades really exist as mechanisms to improve performance, sure, but the main goal is to mix it up with meat instead of pixels.

 

At least that is my view on it. I don't believe that ship upgrades are the carrot, I think players are the carrot.

 

I appreciate the discussion guys. It's a good read.

Edited October 15, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Verain]

You can blow your entire fleet grant on a "bad" ship. I'll be pretty sad if I start seeing T2 Strikes and GSs on bars of 3-shippers in a similar way I believe you would seeing RFLs with 2 upgrades.

 

Well, I mean, in THIS case I kind of don't have sympathy. If they pick one of the two arguably worst ships, then they have chosen poorly. They could have asked someone, or they could have read more about the ships, or whatever. Plus, even if they buy the ships from worst forward, they still have a great chance of actually liking the different play experience.

 

Plus, I think that the players who spend fleet to ship because they feel so far behind on gear are pretty common, but the number that would gravitate DIRECTLY to the worst ships possible seems very low.

 

I've wondered whether they should look at making the T2 GS, the T2 Strike, the T3 Bomber, and the T3 Scout only cost 2500 fleet req, and the rest cost the 5k, that way there's a huge clue to new players that "Hey! This cheaper ship isn't necessarily optimal".

 

I would be VERY opposed to that. The first thing is, the weaker ships should not cost less. The ship's requisition is a symbol of its rarity in the fleet or something, not buying power, and that could be stated more. But the second thing is, when the ships are off in relative value, that's a dev problem. There's no intended ranking of ships, just one that emerged. The type 2 gunship wasn't supposed to be poor, that wasn't the design. They should NOT take the poor design and cement it- if they were going to, they would actually want to gate those ships behind like, "you must have played X games to open this older/weaker ship"- but even that would be lame as heck.

 

 

I'm fine with some small percent of new pilots not asking anyone, not googling, and not reading, and ending up with the weaker ship types. Unfortunate but ok.

 

 

 

 

I know Stasie has the pretty awesome guide out there for gearing out ships, but I'm wondering if it might be worth while to put together some kind of list of things NOT to do, and put it up on the forums for people to read as we get closer to 3.0. Might not help at all, but it's a thought.

 

Good idea.

[demotivator]

If you want to draw people in, get rid of gunships and bombers. When they launched the expansion months ago I was picturing nice dogfights SW Battlefront style, I wasn't expecting being blown to pieces by space snipers and ships laying crap everywhere.

 

is what I was waiting for, not this garbage. Edited October 16, 2014 by demotivator

[Asbetos]

At least that is my view on it. I don't believe that ship upgrades are the carrot, I think players are the carrot.

 

I completely agree that's the way it should be, but unfortunately, my experience over they years tells me it's not the case with MOST MMO players. I am like that, you might be, Verain might be... but I'm fairly sure most are driven by achievements.

[LordArtemis]

I completely agree that's the way it should be, but unfortunately, my experience over they years tells me it's not the case with MOST MMO players. I am like that, you might be, Verain might be... but I'm fairly sure most are driven by achievements.

 

Its a fair point, but I think the current design, as structured, unfortunately promotes this problem.

 

I take call of duty as an example. It is a game similar to GSF....you enter a map, fight to control key points, once you control those points you win the match. You also die and respawn, and your death and kill count is tallied.

 

Simple.

 

The difference is that in CoD the upgrades you get are based on performance but do not overpower you...they give a slight edge in gameplay. The most powerful ones are based on streaks, but more moderate ones are based on cumulative play performance.

 

Instead, this model, as designed IMO, it more a hybrid of the current PVP progression system and BF2 without the on-foot element. Therefore upgrades and progression make a real noticeable difference in how strong you are, and that makes the game much less approachable for the masses.

 

I had suggested that the top level abilities should be reduced in strength, and instead there should be kill streak bonuses and powerups added. I have also suggested in the past that powerups could appear on the map for anyone to grab. But your point about bombers and gunships is also valid IMO.

 

That really points to the weakness of the others ships offered more than the overpowered state of those vessels IMO. They are not fast enough, nor are their shields strong enough to avoid the one shot problem.

 

CoD has snipers. They can kill you in one shot...but naturally it is difficult to do so. In this game it is much easier to snipe the enemy, and perhaps that is part of the problem as well.

 

That is why I promote the BF2 style for this feature.

[nyghtrunner]

I would be VERY opposed to that. The first thing is, the weaker ships should not cost less. The ship's requisition is a symbol of its rarity in the fleet or something, not buying power, and that could be stated more. But the second thing is, when the ships are off in relative value, that's a dev problem. There's no intended ranking of ships, just one that emerged. The type 2 gunship wasn't supposed to be poor, that wasn't the design. They should NOT take the poor design and cement it- if they were going to, they would actually want to gate those ships behind like, "you must have played X games to open this older/weaker ship"- but even that would be lame as heck.

 

I'm fine with some small percent of new pilots not asking anyone, not googling, and not reading, and ending up with the weaker ship types. Unfortunate but ok.

My only real gripe here is to ask, "Why is there the random bomber that cost 2500?" I believe it's the only ship in the game that costs 2500 to unlock (unless they changed it... I'm almost positive the minelayer was only 2500 when they introduced bombers, though, which was the last time I looked to unlock one). I remember thinking at the time that it was something like a tiered system. "Hey, the bomber that's 5k is better than the one that's 2.5k." It's totally not, but the 2500 does seem random in that case. I was just thinking that if they're going to have different pricing on ships, there should be a reason.

 

Otherwise, I totally get where you're coming from. And I also had the thought that, with the new rewards, if you make a mistake and get a ship you don't like, it wouldn't be that painful to start up GSF on a different toon.

[MiaowZedong]

My only real gripe here is to ask, "Why is there the random bomber that cost 2500?" I believe it's the only ship in the game that costs 2500 to unlock (unless they changed it... I'm almost positive the minelayer was only 2500 when they introduced bombers, though, which was the last time I looked to unlock one).

 

T1 Gunship as well costs 2.5k.

 

It's actually a very weak version of what Verain suggested with more difficult ships costing more. The 2.5k ships are straightforward and effective, while the badly designed T2 gunship, the underwhelming T2 strike, the 'hybrid' T3 gunship and bomber and the support/utility T3 strike and scout are all more expensive, so there's a (weak) suggestion that new players should get the simple, powerful T1 bomber and gunship as their first ships beyond the starters.