Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Galactic Alliance vs Phantom Hegemony

[Beniboybling]

So your saying you think the 501st will get a great choke point...and lose it to B2's?......

 

*Looks to the side* I...

 

*Looks back* ... How do...

 

*shakes head* I disagree!!!

 

As for the enemy vehicles, do you not think they would have vehicle support of their own? Heck, collapsing it would help them anyways. It would prove one less route for the PH to reach their artillery.

No, I'm saying that the 501st will lose a great choke point to AT-MPs, war droids and Octupurras!

 

It will also cut off the only access point to the Separatist Base...

[Silenceo]

No, I'm saying that the 501st will lose a great choke point to AT-MPs, war droids and Octupurras!

 

It will also cut off the only access point to the Separatist Base...

 

Like I said, do you think the 501st would not have its own armor with them? Not to mention they likely could get there faster.

 

Though, by chance can you tell me which choke point you mean exactly? Might go find it in game to examine it a bit... There seem to be so many, and knowing the exact one will help quite a bit.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Silenceo

[RDeanOU]

Capturing the choke points in the center of the island to prevent the Alliance from attacking the Hegemony's base is in my mind a defensive strategy, albeit operating under the notion that the best defense is a good offense.

 

If you'd like to be specific in relation to that then fire away. But right now I don't see how your arguments apply.

 

Capturing anything is by definition offense. I'm not sure how you can honestly portray the PH forces advancing en masse to capture territory as defensive.

 

In order to capture these choke points they will have to move through them. This exposes them to concentrated long range artillery fire and/or hit and run style ambushes.

 

How much more specific do I need to be?

[RDeanOU]

Like I said, do you think the 501st would not have its own *SUPERIOR* armor with them? Not to mention they likely could get there faster.

 

Though, by chance can you tell me which choke point you mean exactly? Might go find it in game to examine it a bit... There seem to be so many, and knowing the exact one will help quite a bit.

 

Fixed

[Beniboybling]

Like I said, do you think the 501st would not have its own armor with them? Not to mention they likely could get there faster.

 

Though, by chance can you tell me which choke point you mean exactly? Might go find it in game to examine it a bit... There seem to be so many, and knowing the exact one will help quite a bit.

Well I'm doing a write up now in which I'll cover this.

 

http://www.swtor-fever.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Ord-Mantell-Presence-+2-map.jpg

 

I'm referring to the central area, where there is a wide open space flanked by two choke points.

[Beniboybling]

Capturing anything is by definition offense. I'm not sure how you can honestly portray the PH forces advancing en masse to capture territory as defensive.

 

In order to capture these choke points they will have to move through them. This exposes them to concentrated long range artillery fire and/or hit and run style ambushes.

 

How much more specific do I need to be?

That's specific enough thanks.

[RDeanOU]

That's specific enough thanks.

 

I think the PH has options, but they have to do something to nullify the GA's advantage in artillery and vehicular support. As it stands currently, the GA can run circles around the PH and rain destruction on them from long range with impunity.

 

To me, it's sort of a reverse of the space battle scenario wherein the GA was forced to nullify the advantages the PH had in terms of fighter support and the PH's massive flagship.

[Silenceo]

I just went and checked out those choke points, the ones approximately center of the map? Half way between either stronghold? There is so much in favor of the 501st in that area, it isn't even funny.

 

Summery:

 

Direction GA approaches from.

-Tons of cover

-Uneven ground

-Many large obsticles

-Easy to scale sides of Valley

-Multiple positions easily defensible by the GA

 

Direction PH approaches from.

-Wide open

-No, or little, cover

-Sheer cliff faces, only Tri-droids can climb it without entering enemy territory

 

Neutral (middle).

-Center of choke point is an excellent kill zone

-Cliffs provide more cover the more sheer their edge (rounded vs sharp)

 

 

I am sure I could find more pros and cons for each side, but this snipped seems pretty clear... Both for who could easily hold it, as well as get there first due to their vehicle speeds, as well as not having a max speed of *fast walk*.

 

Side Note: AT-ST's could be stationed on that ridge as well in case the tri-droids decide to try and scale the side in order to deal with the defenders. TX-130T Fighter Tank on the other hand have an advantage no other vehicle here does... It can treat ground and water exactly the same. Meaning they could go full speed without needing to slow down due to risk of collision, but going out onto the water. That leads to them being able to flank even better, since this is an island after all.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

OK so I want to flesh out my ground arguments with some new ideas and build on old ones.

 

I'm sure its apparent to everyone that artillery (i.e. AT-TEs) is the Hegemony's main threat here and to counter it I'd propose gunships. The AT-TEs are powerful but they have weaknesses, namely against fast moving aerial targets.

 

They swivel slowly, they fire slowly and their range fails to extend to higher altitudes. I have little doubt that a single hit could cripple a Predator but I also have little doubt the AT-TEs will be able to effectively hit them. Simply because the time it takes for the AT-TE to target and fire gives the Predator plenty of time to perform evasive maneuvers. All the Predators have to do is keep altering their flight path and the lack of a stationary target will render the AT-TEs useless.

 

On the other hand, the Predators will have little difficulty in dispatching the AT-TEs, for despite the hype they really are quite squishy. 1 direct hit from a Hailfire droid (i.e. a missile) could disable it, as could a collision with a Vulture-droid.

 

The devastating firepower that the Predator can unleash, will be more than enough to replicate this. Its going to be a one hit one kill job, especially if they hit that exposed cockpit, and the AT-TEs are hardly in a position to dodge.

 

Essentially, whenever the AT-TEs prove a threat, the gunships will roll in and obliterate them.

 

In regards to the rest of the vehicles. The AT-STs and fighter tanks have the advantage of speed, but they'll meet their match with the Octuptarra which thanks to its rapid fire rate, as well as superior range, can dispatch them very quickly before they have time to get in close and fight back, noting that with the Octuptarra, flanking is not an option.

 

And with that in mind, I'd like to discuss the two stages of the Hegemony's opening offense.

Firstly, securing the center of the island. Given its close proximity to Fort Garnik the Alliance will likely capture this spot first, and probably line the ravines with 2 or 3 AT-TEs. However these will be spotted by surveillance, and the gunships will roll in, see above. I expect they'll be dispatched in short order.

 

With the AT-TEs in smoking ruins, the army will roll in. Without the AT-TEs to lay down artillery support dropships can be landed with impunity and start deploying war droids, AT-MPs and Octupurras to flood the narrow ravines.

 

The war droids and AT-MPs will cut a path through the infantry, with the ravines giving them the advantage, and with 14 metres of height the Octupurras can destroy any vehicles from above and with little space to maneuver they won't have a chance to fight back. Nor should we forget the Predators, trapped in a choke point decimating the ranks of the Alliance will be like shooting fish in a barrel. Bearing in mind the Alliance will be expecting a conventional wave of battle droids, they won't be prepared for what the Hegemony has in store for them.

 

After capturing the ravine the west side of the island will be protected and can be used as a staging point, and if need be B2s can be deployed to capture the more open central area and make their defense all the more secure. And if the Alliance tries to set up kill zones, the Hegemony's artillery will knock it down.

 

Noting that with the presence of the Octupurras, the Alliance won't be able to drop in any more artillery. And thanks to the presence of the ravine no vehicles can get in range without entering a choke point/kill zone.

Establishing a foot hold in the center of the island will protect the Hegemony's base from attack. And give them time to gather resources and stage an offensive on Mannett Point, which is the second part of the Hegemony's offensive.

Mannett Point at this stage will likely have been captured by the Alliance, however they can't afford to dedicate a large amount of troops to a location of no strategic value to them. So it will not be heavily defended. This works to the Hegemony's advantage, who by fielding the majority of their army can wipe the defenders out.

 

To ensure maximum covertness, this will likely be done at night. By which point Imperial Intelligence will have fashioned the Hegemony with everything they need to move totally undetected, including sensor jammers, rendering them invisible to radar and scans. And line of sight can be equally negated by the night conditions, and by moving at a wide arc around Fort Garnik. Under these circumstances its highly unlikely they'd be spotted.

 

However they won't attack immediately, first they'll dispatch Storm Commandos under the cover of darkness to sneak in and soften the enemy up for their arrival. I can think of two things they can do here, first, sabotage any AT-TEs, a well-placed grenade will be more than enough to blow them to pieces. Second, shut down the power generator, rendering, auto turrets, security and communications useless and plunging the garrison into total darkness. And this can be achieved without incident thanks to the dark conditions, and their cloaking devices.

 

Once sabotaged the Hegemony's forces will move in, without artillery of any kind dropships can again land with impunity, right in the middle of the base, and begin deploying battle droids and walkers. Covered from assault by gunships, which can lay down suppressive fire to anything that might attempt to oppose them.

 

And with most of the garrison tucked up in bed, and with no warning of an attack, they'll be caught completely off guard. Now I assume that Stormtroopers have night vision, but can the same be said for the Rebels?

 

Regardless, I predict another slaughter, with few causalities on the Hegemony's end. Especially Savage spearheads the assault. On top of that if the Hegemony employ jamming technology, which they will, the garrison will be unable to alert command. After Mannett Point is secured the Hegemony will waste no time in launching at assault on Fort Garnik, the element of surprise still in play, and artillery still negated by gunships..

And with a strong foothold in two staging points, the Hegemony can launch a proper offensive. But the Hegemony isn't just going to throw itself at the Alliance and be done with it, they'll constantly be employing sabotage before each engagement to ensure the odds are in their favour, wearing them down with each wave, while constantly souring relationships between Imperials and Rebels. Essentially they'll attack, defend, sabotage, rinse repeat. Neutralizing anything that might disrupt the process as they go along, until the Alliance crumbles.

[Beniboybling]

Also, folks seem to be underestimating/forgetting about the Predators in general so I'd like to remind you all.

 

HMP Predator

 

Debuting late in the Clone Wars was this powerful automated predator, a heavily armed and ray-shielded air support unit capable of wiping out infantry and armour units in relentless barrages of explosive ordnance. The underside of the gunship's flat fuselage carries two clusters of missile pods, and can be fitted with droid deployment racks for insertion and extraction into the heaviest combat zones.

 

-- Star Wars Databank

 

A heavily armed assault craft: the Predator is equipped with 4 laser cannons, and most important a powerful payload of 14 missiles per vessel. These can be equipped with a variety of ordnance including concentrated or wide range blasts, EMP missiles, incendiary devices, and radiation bursts and concussion bomb – all equipped with homing capabilities – making it flexible and adaptable to any one force.

 

Equipped with powerful shielding: the Predator is designed to entire the thick of combat and as such is equipped with powerful deflector shields that can withstand any energy attacks.

 

Nothing short of a rocket launcher can make a scratch on these vessels.

 

Can act as troop carriers: the Predator could swap out is missile bays for droid deployment racks which could ferry squads of 12 battle droids into heavy combat areas, which would work well for rapid deployment ambushes/reinforcements. It was also capable of carrying persons on its hull, such as commando droids.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

1. It would take time for the PH to acquire them. During that time the PH would just sit there and wait? If they do that allows the GA to spend time either preparing or advancing, using the terrain to their advantage.

 

2. The GAs forces are sitting on an island not much else they could learn.

 

3. And what about anyone set to defend the walkers? It's not like their going to keep them unguarded. As well the black armor isn't going to blend all that nicely into a lot of the grassy terrain. Maybe if they stick to the rocky ravines where there is very little vegetation, but among the yellowish grass and brush they'll stick out like a sore thumb.

 

1. The Munificent cruisers possess extensive communication and sensor arrays. It is plausible that they would be able to jam the enemy using them. Otherwise, it is probable that Imperial Agents would have this tech on hand. If not, then it would take time.

 

2. Positions? Formations? That isn't valuable?

 

3. Whatever is guarding them will be caught completely off guard because of the distraction provided by the droid army. They will literally be looking the other way.

[Aurbere]

As an addendum to Beni's Predator argument, the HMP is a product of Baktoid industries, so even if the listed HMPs couldn't be used because they are space forces, the Hegemony would still get some from their supplier as an opening garrison.

 

On that note, I'll look at suppliers and lay out what each faction gets as an opening garrison. I had been meaning to, but I forgot.

[karadron]

OK so I want to flesh out my ground arguments with some new ideas and build on old ones.

 

I'm sure its apparent to everyone that artillery (i.e. AT-TEs) is the Hegemony's main threat here and to counter it I'd propose gunships. The AT-TEs are powerful but they have weaknesses, namely against fast moving aerial targets.

 

They swivel slowly, they fire slowly and their range fails to extend to higher altitudes. I have little doubt that a single hit could cripple a Predator but I also have little doubt the AT-TEs will be able to effectively hit them. Simply because the time it takes for the AT-TE to target and fire gives the Predator plenty of time to perform evasive maneuvers. All the Predators have to do is keep altering their flight path and the lack of a stationary target will render the AT-TEs useless.

 

On the other hand, the Predators will have little difficulty in dispatching the AT-TEs, for despite the hype they really are quite squishy. 1 direct hit from a Hailfire droid (i.e. a missile) could disable it, as could a collision with a Vulture-droid.

 

The devastating firepower that the Predator can unleash, will be more than enough to replicate this. Its going to be a one hit one kill job, especially if they hit that exposed cockpit, and the AT-TEs are hardly in a position to dodge.

 

Essentially, whenever the AT-TEs prove a threat, the gunships will roll in and obliterate them.

 

In regards to the rest of the vehicles. The AT-STs and fighter tanks have the advantage of speed, but they'll meet their match with the Octuptarra which thanks to its rapid fire rate, as well as superior range, can dispatch them very quickly before they have time to get in close and fight back, noting that with the Octuptarra, flanking is not an option.

 

And with that in mind, I'd like to discuss the two stages of the Hegemony's opening offense.

Firstly, securing the center of the island. Given its close proximity to Fort Garnik the Alliance will likely capture this spot first, and probably line the ravines with 2 or 3 AT-TEs. However these will be spotted by surveillance, and the gunships will roll in, see above. I expect they'll be dispatched in short order.

 

With the AT-TEs in smoking ruins, the army will roll in. Without the AT-TEs to lay down artillery support dropships can be landed with impunity and start deploying war droids, AT-MPs and Octupurras to flood the narrow ravines.

 

The war droids and AT-MPs will cut a path through the infantry, with the ravines giving them the advantage, and with 14 metres of height the Octupurras can destroy any vehicles from above and with little space to maneuver they won't have a chance to fight back. Nor should we forget the Predators, trapped in a choke point decimating the ranks of the Alliance will be like shooting fish in a barrel. Bearing in mind the Alliance will be expecting a conventional wave of battle droids, they won't be prepared for what the Hegemony has in store for them.

 

After capturing the ravine the west side of the island will be protected and can be used as a staging point, and if need be B2s can be deployed to capture the more open central area and make their defense all the more secure. And if the Alliance tries to set up kill zones, the Hegemony's artillery will knock it down.

 

Noting that with the presence of the Octupurras, the Alliance won't be able to drop in any more artillery. And thanks to the presence of the ravine no vehicles can get in range without entering a choke point/kill zone.

Establishing a foot hold in the center of the island will protect the Hegemony's base from attack. And give them time to gather resources and stage an offensive on Mannett Point, which is the second part of the Hegemony's offensive.

Mannett Point at this stage will likely have been captured by the Alliance, however they can't afford to dedicate a large amount of troops to a location of no strategic value to them. So it will not be heavily defended. This works to the Hegemony's advantage, who by fielding the majority of their army can wipe the defenders out.

 

To ensure maximum covertness, this will likely be done at night. By which point Imperial Intelligence will have fashioned the Hegemony with everything they need to move totally undetected, including sensor jammers, rendering them invisible to radar and scans. And line of sight can be equally negated by the night conditions, and by moving at a wide arc around Fort Garnik. Under these circumstances its highly unlikely they'd be spotted.

 

However they won't attack immediately, first they'll dispatch Storm Commandos under the cover of darkness to sneak in and soften the enemy up for their arrival. I can think of two things they can do here, first, sabotage any AT-TEs, a well-placed grenade will be more than enough to blow them to pieces. Second, shut down the power generator, rendering, auto turrets, security and communications useless and plunging the garrison into total darkness. And this can be achieved without incident thanks to the dark conditions, and their cloaking devices.

 

Once sabotaged the Hegemony's forces will move in, without artillery of any kind dropships can again land with impunity, right in the middle of the base, and begin deploying battle droids and walkers. Covered from assault by gunships, which can lay down suppressive fire to anything that might attempt to oppose them.

 

And with most of the garrison tucked up in bed, and with no warning of an attack, they'll be caught completely off guard. Now I assume that Stormtroopers have night vision, but can the same be said for the Rebels?

 

Regardless, I predict another slaughter, with few causalities on the Hegemony's end. Especially Savage spearheads the assault. On top of that if the Hegemony employ jamming technology, which they will, the garrison will be unable to alert command. After Mannett Point is secured the Hegemony will waste no time in launching at assault on Fort Garnik, the element of surprise still in play, and artillery still negated by gunships..

And with a strong foothold in two staging points, the Hegemony can launch a proper offensive. But the Hegemony isn't just going to throw itself at the Alliance and be done with it, they'll constantly be employing sabotage before each engagement to ensure the odds are in their favour, wearing them down with each wave, while constantly souring relationships between Imperials and Rebels. Essentially they'll attack, defend, sabotage, rinse repeat. Neutralizing anything that might disrupt the process as they go along, until the Alliance crumbles.

 

That's all well and good but the Heavy Weapons Specialists portion of the SpecOps are trained in taking down both land and air vehicles, as well as operating artillery and other weapons. The PH will have a limited amount of Predators due to limited facilities in their base. Even if only 10% of the HWS have specialized equipment and training against anti-aerial vehicles that's more than likely enough to take out any Predators that come into play.

 

As well Mannett Point is easily observed and targetable from Fort Garnik, giving the HWS access to portable light artillery like mortars would make bombarding it possible. Add to that the fact that the TXs can run circles around the entire PH force, flanking them as they try to move up from it by going over the water.

 

Pathfinders scouting the land, giving the GA vital knowledge of certain terrain features, add to that the Wilderness Fighters who are specifically trained for certain environments and flanking becomes a real issue.

 

As well by moving so many forces to attack the GA the PH HQ becomes vulnerable to infiltration. With little defenses remaining inside people getting in becomes much easier.

[Silenceo]

Just a quick question, but couldn't the turrets on top of the TX's do considerable damage to Predators? I get they are shielded against attacks, but beam weapons are known to be quite good at piercing both shields and armor. Not to mention there are many of these tanks.

 

Side Note: The hailfire missile only did much damage to the AT-TE because it hit bellow the majority of the armor. Though from what we have seen of the Predators, they do not appear to have missiles of that magnitude.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Silenceo

[karadron]

1. The Munificent cruisers possess extensive communication and sensor arrays. It is plausible that they would be able to jam the enemy using them. Otherwise, it is probable that Imperial Agents would have this tech on hand. If not, then it would take time.

 

2. Positions? Formations? That isn't valuable?

 

3. Whatever is guarding them will be caught completely off guard because of the distraction provided by the droid army. They will literally be looking the other way.

 

1. Jamming from space to ground though is not in their capabilities, though. So it would have to be transported form I.I.

 

2. Looking down from space to a tiny volcanic island will be difficult. I doubt that the sensors they employ would be powerful enough to pinpoint to any exactitude the positioning of the GA forces, especially since they are more likely designed for use in space.

 

3. And AT-TEs were designed in a way that flanking was a null factor. They have guns in the front and guns in the back. Said guns can rotate and move and they have a mass driver cannon that can rotate as well. Put some troops around them to act as defense and the position becomes difficult to assault.

[Aurbere]

1. Jamming from space to ground though is not in their capabilities, though. So it would have to be transported form I.I.

 

2. Looking down from space to a tiny volcanic island will be difficult. I doubt that the sensors they employ would be powerful enough to pinpoint to any exactitude the positioning of the GA forces, especially since they are more likely designed for use in space.

 

3. And AT-TEs were designed in a way that flanking was a null factor. They have guns in the front and guns in the back. Said guns can rotate and move and they have a mass driver cannon that can rotate as well. Put some troops around them to act as defense and the position becomes difficult to assault.

 

1. A single Lucrehulk was capable of it, surely a ship noted for its impressive sensor and communication abilities could do the same?

 

2. I'm pretty sure such things have been done before. How else have base and environmental layouts been generated for attacking forces?

 

3. Um, no? It is outright stated in the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels that the AT-TE has no defenses on its flanks and has to rely on troops to defend it. And those troops are woefully incapable of defeating Storm Commandos. Besides, Beni's layout has the attack taking place at night, increasing the likelihood of their success several times.

[Beniboybling]

Can I stress that Storm Commandos have cloaking devices? They are not wannabe chameleons. Edited October 20, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

Can I stress that Storm Commandos have cloaking devices? They are not wannabe chameleons.

 

Curse you... You reminded me of THIS!

 

Though, still doing more research on spec forces to explore their counters, so I'll get back to you on that...

Edited October 20, 2014 by Silenceo

[karadron]

Can I stress that Storm Commandos have cloaking devices? They are not wannabe chameleons.

 

I''m pretty sure that Wolf said they don't have that tech so....

[Beniboybling]

I''m pretty sure that Wolf said they don't have that tech so....

Wolf said they don't have "state of the art" tech, which I guess is true.

 

But they do have reflec which renders them invisible, and they have special energy shields on their speeders that make them invisible to detection.

Curse you... You reminded me of THIS!

 

Though, still doing more research on spec forces to explore their counters, so I'll get back to you on that...

LOL!

 

You will find no weaknesses, abandon all hope!

Edited October 20, 2014 by Beniboybling

[karadron]

Wolf said they don't have "state of the art" tech, which I guess is true.

 

But they do have reflec which renders them invisible, and they have special energy shields on their speeders that make them invisible to detection.LOL!

 

You will find no weaknesses, abandon all hope!

 

 

Evidence points more in the direction of working against sensors not the naked eye, though. And even then it does not work perfectly against sensors.

[Silenceo]

LOL!

You will find no weaknesses, abandon all hope!

 

[RDeanOU]

I'm fairly certain that Rebel SpecOps would have night vision capabilities. They would likely have scouts all over the wilderness that would see any deployment (even at night) towards Mannett Point. You can't exactly hide a fleet of drop ships capable of deploying thousands of troops. That force will be seen at minimum as it approaches Mannett Point if not before. Any light artillery in Fort Garnik can rain down onto Mannett as the drop ships attempt to deploy. This is not to mention that if any AT-TE's at all were to survive the strike by the Storm Commandos, this assault would be a total slaughter.

 

I still think attacking Mannett Point is a bad idea. Its proximity to Fort Garnik and the dominating position Fort Garnik has over that staging point means that the entire deployment can be observed and bombarded.

[karadron]

1. A single Lucrehulk was capable of it, surely a ship noted for its impressive sensor and communication abilities could do the same?

 

2. I'm pretty sure such things have been done before. How else have base and environmental layouts been generated for attacking forces?

 

3. Um, no? It is outright stated in the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels that the AT-TE has no defenses on its flanks and has to rely on troops to defend it. And those troops are woefully incapable of defeating Storm Commandos. Besides, Beni's layout has the attack taking place at night, increasing the likelihood of their success several times.

 

1. But the size of the Lucrehulk would give them far more space for such capacity.

 

2. Existing structures, old maps, scouting, probe droids. Even then what's stopping the GA from using decoys or other military practices to keep the PH from knowing where their troops are?

 

3. The front and rear though are protected and the sides are armored and capable of withstanding a lot of firepower. Even then what's preventing the GA from using some light vehicles to guard them they have the number advantage in that area. Even then their entire ground force is elite. 501st being the best the stormtrooper corps had, even pulling individuals from other legions to keep their reputation. The Rebel SpecOps were more than a thorn in the side of their enemies. These guys will not be pushovers. And in reality the Storm Commandoes are just stormtroopers with extra training and different gear.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Storm Commandos don't have cloaking devices, that's the Shadow Troopers(no not Shadow Stormtroopers, yes I know confusing) that have cloaking devices in their armor.

 

They have reflec, which bends light and sensor energy away from them. So they can be invisible, but just towards light and sensor, even then it isn't fullproof as determined scans can pick them up.