Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Galactic Alliance vs Phantom Hegemony

[Beniboybling]

Except it has already been determined that the PACs are the primary transports of the PH. Any other transport is going beyond that and this must be sent by the supplier. The garrison force is a group of units that have been sent by the supplier before hand. The number is calculated to be 2% of total forces fielded, according to Aurbere.

 

As it stands by Aurbere's initial garrison proposal, there are 2 MTTs fielded. And if issue is taken with that then it must be brought to him, but as he stated, increasing one unit will decrease another as to maintain a balance of 2%.

Reflected by the fact that the landing craft in question carried almost treble the amount of PACs.

 

The fact is, these are the carriers the Hegemony is using, that is the complement they carried, and the Hegemony has the means to produce the transports in question, what logical reason can be purported for them not being there?

 

Because in the absence of one, and in the absence of a rule stating otherwise, they are there.

 

And I am taking an issue, while I respect Aurbere's authority on the matter I'm afraid no fixed calculations can and have been made in this regard, only logical conclusions can be drawn based on evidence and evidence alone.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

I know this is completely out of place, but wasn't it only a certain variant of the AT-TE that had gaps in the side *that were there for soldiers to cover flanks from* that were big enough for a grenade to get through? Other than that variant, they appear to have had solid sides, albeit minus the protection those gaps gave.

[Beniboybling]

Oh, so we're not going with an actual opening garrison then. I thought that had carried over from the previous series.

The rule is unchanged, in the past Kaggath garrisons were kept at the supply base too if you recall, but of course in that case the battleground was the entire galaxy, so it is easily forgotten.

[Beniboybling]

I know this is completely out of place, but wasn't it only a certain variant of the AT-TE that had gaps in the side *that were there for soldiers to cover flanks from* that were big enough for a grenade to get through? Other than that variant, they appear to have had solid sides, albeit minus the protection those gaps gave.

Unless you can find a source... I'm going with this image.

 

Gaps we see exploited during the Battle of Ryloth.

 

Unless your referring to something else? I don't completely follow.

[karadron]

Reflected by the fact that the landing craft in question carried almost treble the amount of PACs.

 

The fact is, these are the carriers the Hegemony is using, that is the complement they carried, and the Hegemony has the means to produce the transports in question, what logical reason can be purported for them not being there?

 

Because in the absence of one, and in the absence of a rule stating otherwise, they are there.

 

And I am taking an issue, while I respect Aurbere's authority on the matter I'm afraid no fixed calculations can and have been made in this regard, only logical conclusions can be drawn based on evidence and evidence alone.

 

 

And said landing craft would need to be built and shipped before they could be fielded, and that is just the craft itself. Add to that the time it would take to craft the vehicles it would carry, the time to travel to Ord Mantell from Geonosis and the battle will, more than likely, be over.

 

As well using that logic, then the GA gets two types of transports that are faction specific as well as a carrier as well. The rulings in previous Kaggaths have given access to transports, but not to carriers--nor has that topic even been discussed for there has been no reason too. If the PH, then has to wait for all its extra materials to get in before it acts then that gives the GA time to either prepare or go on the offensive and besiege the PH's base.

 

 

You last point is besides the point Aurbere holds the belief that each faction has already been supplied with a small garrison of units from their supplier, a garrison of roughly 2% of their total force. He laid out what he believed those to be and opened the floor for questioning about the numbers involved. As it then stands numbers will be shifted to accommodate what is to be perceived as the most realistic, with regards to people disagreeing with his assessment.

[Aurbere]

The rule is unchanged, in the past Kaggath garrisons were kept at the supply base too if you recall, but of course in that case the battleground was the entire galaxy, so it is easily forgotten.

 

Oh, alright then. Forget the garrisons.

[Beniboybling]

And said landing craft would need to be built and shipped before they could be fielded, and that is just the craft itself. Add to that the time it would take to craft the vehicles it would carry, the time to travel to Ord Mantell from Geonosis and the battle will, more than likely, be over.

 

As well using that logic, then the GA gets two types of transports that are faction specific as well as a carrier as well. The rulings in previous Kaggaths have given access to transports, but not to carriers--nor has that topic even been discussed for there has been no reason too. If the PH, then has to wait for all its extra materials to get in before it acts then that gives the GA time to either prepare or go on the offensive and besiege the PH's base.

 

 

You last point is besides the point Aurbere holds the belief that each faction has already been supplied with a small garrison of units from their supplier, a garrison of roughly 2% of their total force. He laid out what he believed those to be and opened the floor for questioning about the numbers involved. As it then stands numbers will be shifted to accommodate what is to be perceived as the most realistic, with regards to people disagreeing with his assessment.

Landing craft would of course be pre-provided under this rule:

 

#57 All ground forces will also come with appropriate transportation for deployment. Though this does not include anything classable as a gunship, and said transportation, be it a vehicle or a starship, cannot under be used in combat in anything other than self-defence.

 

And seeing as this was the only manner in which it was ever done, and the only craft configured to carry PACs, and MTTs, it is most definitely the appropriate for of transportation.

 

Noting that a carrier is a type of capital ship, the C-9979 landing craft is and fits the description of a transport. Though both the 501st and the SpecForce would have their own individual transports (unarmed mind) yes.

 

Unfortunately Aurbere is mistaken, about a great many things...

[karadron]

Landing craft would of course be pre-provided under this rule:

 

#57 All ground forces will also come with appropriate transportation for deployment. Though this does not include anything classable as a gunship, and said transportation, be it a vehicle or a starship, cannot under be used in combat in anything other than self-defence.

 

And seeing as this was the only manner in which it was ever done, and the only craft configured to carry PACs, and MTTs, it is most definitely the appropriate for of transportation.

 

Noting that a carrier is a type of capital ship, the C-9979 landing craft is and fits the description of a transport. Though both the 501st and the SpecForce would have their own individual transports (unarmed mind) yes.

 

Unfortunately Aurbere is mistaken, about a great many things...

 

Except that the PH already has appropriate transportation in the PACs anything above that is stretching the rules as they have been used previously. Of course, if it is given, the landing craft could be taken out by the HWS while in transit, which would be such a shame.

[Beniboybling]

Except that the PH already has appropriate transportation in the PACs anything above that is stretching the rules as they have been used previously. Of course, if it is given, the landing craft could be taken out by the HWS while in transit, which would be such a shame.

They are provided by Baktoid, no rules are being stretched here.

[karadron]

They are provided by Baktoid, no rules are being stretched here.

 

No, but them starting out on the planet when the battle starts is.

[Beniboybling]

No, but them starting out on the planet when the battle starts is.

#119 Each faction will be prequipped by any basic weapons and supplies their supplier and/or organisation can provide e.g. small arms, armor, fighters/transports, elite tech etc. and altogether anything that would be logical to have already armed. What is allowed under this ruling however will ultimately be up to the discretion of the Arbiter.

 

Nope, nope.

[karadron]

#119 Each faction will be prequipped by any basic weapons and supplies their supplier and/or organisation can provide e.g. small arms, armor, fighters/transports, elite tech etc. and altogether anything that would be logical to have already armed. What is allowed under this ruling however will ultimately be up to the discretion of the Arbiter.

Nope, nope.

 

Fixed the bold for you.

 

The possibility is still there. As has been previously determined PACs are the standard transport that the PH has to use. Anything above that then would be...from the supplier, which is roughly two weeks away...which means that it would take time. Also I'm pretty sure that those C-9979s were used to and from space more than across a very small island. They also will be highly visible. Also they can be shot down. As well, where will they be stored? The PH's HQ doesn't have all that much space for flying vehicles and those...well they're not that small. I doubt that they would fit in the bases hangar. So then they would have to be stored outside it, putting them in a position to be harassed by the fast moving TXs or easily destroyed by the HWS.

[Beniboybling]

Fixed the bold for you.

 

The possibility is still there. As has been previously determined PACs are the standard transport that the PH has to use. Anything above that then would be...from the supplier, which is roughly two weeks away...which means that it would take time. Also I'm pretty sure that those C-9979s were used to and from space more than across a very small island. They also will be highly visible. Also they can be shot down. As well, where will they be stored? The PH's HQ doesn't have all that much space for flying vehicles and those...well they're not that small. I doubt that they would fit in the bases hangar. So then they would have to be stored outside it, putting them in a position to be harassed by the fast moving TXs or easily destroyed by the HWS.

Which is why I raised it in the first place, and time would be inconsequential is deployed via this rule.

 

How they are stored is really irrelevant to the existence of the MTTs, though I would point out that this space superiority it would be a simple task to ferry forces planet side then store the transports in the ships above. Nor should you assume that the Alliance can move about the island with impunity, I can assure you they cannot.

 

Why we are making such a fuss over transports however I don't know.

[karadron]

Which is why I raised it in the first place, and time would be inconsequential is deployed via this rule.

 

How they are stored is really irrelevant to the existence of the MTTs, though I would point out that this space superiority it would be a simple task to ferry forces planet side then store the transports in the ships above. Nor should you assume that the Alliance can move about the island with impunity, I can assure you they cannot.

 

Why we are making such a fuss over transports however I don't know.

 

Even better for the GA, with the PH's force starting no where near the base it can besiege the stronghold while the HWS takes out the C-9979s as they land with the AT-TEs firing with impunity. That is of course if the C-9979s are accessible to the PH to begin with. Then it's a simple matter of breaking into the volcano and storming the base. Keeping a close eye on the hangar bays and taking out any transport that leaves.

[Beniboybling]

Even better for the GA, with the PH's force starting no where near the base it can besiege the stronghold while the HWS takes out the C-9979s as they land with the AT-TEs firing with impunity. That is of course if the C-9979s are accessible to the PH to begin with. Then it's a simple matter of breaking into the volcano and storming the base. Keeping a close eye on the hangar bays and taking out any transport that leaves.

The Hegemony force will be positioned nowhere near the Hegemony's base? I don't follow.

 

Again how exactly are the Alliance going to simply appear at the Hegemony's door?

 

And I'm afraid your just going to have to accept that they are, unless you can provide a reasonable alternative.

 

EDIT: Bearing in mind intial troop deployment takes place before the Kaggath officially begins.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Beniboybling

[karadron]

The Hegemony force will be positioned nowhere near the Hegemony's base? I don't follow.

 

Again how exactly are the Alliance going to simply appear at the Hegemony's door?

 

And I'm afraid your just going to have to accept that they are, unless you can provide a reasonable alternative.

 

They be in space like you implied with the transports. You said they would be on the ships.

 

Appear? Their artillery is already in range and then it's a simple matter of moving their forces to attack.

 

 

And they aren't until Aurbere says otherwise. Until then I can based on what has been said prior assume that the transport the PH is using is the PAC--an issue which has already been discussed btw. Aurbere said that PACs were the default transport over MTTs so I don't know why this discussion has resurfaced with a new transport being asked for.

[Beniboybling]

They be in space like you implied with the transports. You said they would be on the ships.

 

Appear? Their artillery is already in range and then it's a simple matter of moving their forces to attack.

 

 

And they aren't until Aurbere says otherwise. Until then I can based on what has been said prior assume that the transport the PH is using is the PAC--an issue which has already been discussed btw. Aurbere said that PACs were the default transport over MTTs so I don't know why this discussion has resurfaced with a new transport being asked for.

I said that after the forces have been deployed, there is no need to store all the landing craft on the ground - though, given thought, I doubt they'd need any more than 1 and perhaps 1 or 2 spare, I'm sure there will be room.

 

I feel as if I'm missing something i.e. the point where the Alliance drops AT-TEs outside the Hegemony's base...

 

This has nothing to do with the PACs, this is about the appopriate form of transportation for the deployment of the Hegemon'y troops, the landing craft is the only possible option, discussion really isn't necessary on the topic.

 

Nothing new is being asked for, this was a given from the start and features in my earliest arguments. In fact, despite it being explictly mentioned from the earliest pages it is only now that you have decided to challenge it. Considering Aurbere hasn't, I'm incline to believe he takes no issue. Until he states otherwise I suggest we drop the subject.

 

P.S. Aurbere made note that the MTTs remain nonetheless in play.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Beniboybling

[karadron]

I said that after the forces have been deployed, there is no need to store all the landing craft on the ground - though, given thought, I doubt they'd need any more than 1 and perhaps 1 or 2 spare, I'm sure there will be room.

 

I feel as if I'm missing something i.e. the point where the Alliance drops AT-TEs outside the Hegemony's base...

 

This has nothing to do with the PACs, this is about the appopriate form of transportation for the deployment of the Hegemon'y troops, the landing craft is the only possible option, discussion really isn't necessary on the topic.

 

Nothing new is being asked for, this was a given from the start and features in my earliest arguments. In fact, despite it being explictly mentioned from the earliest pages it is only now that you have decided to challenge it. Considering Aurbere hasn't, I'm incline to believe he takes no issue. Until he states otherwise I suggest we drop the subject.

 

P.S. Aurbere made note that the MTTs remain nonetheless in play.

 

Yes but only when they are shipped from Geonosis since your own point nullified the initial garrison that he had set up.

 

Fort Garnik is within artillery range of the PH's base. They won't need to move much at all.

 

 

Because now is the first time I have seen It explicitly stated. Maybe it was implied before but for whatever reason I did not see any mention of C-9979s before. It actually has a big impact, on how the Kaggath plays out. The PAC can serve as more than ample transportation for the PHs infantry, which is what the transport is for.

[Beniboybling]

Yes but only when they are shipped from Geonosis since your own point nullified the initial garrison that he had set up.

 

Fort Garnik is within artillery range of the PH's base. They won't need to move much at all.

 

 

Because now is the first time I have seen It explicitly stated. Maybe it was implied before but for whatever reason I did not see any mention of C-9979s before. It actually has a big impact, on how the Kaggath plays out. The PAC can serve as more than ample transportation for the PHs infantry, which is what the transport is for.

As I have said, transports of this kind would be deployed prior to the Kaggath, with the main force, for the main force.

 

Even assuming the in-game size is exact, I'm afraid that's not the case. But as we know it is not. The Separatist Base will be several kilometers away, if not several hundred, not to mention many kilometres above sea level.

 

If anything it will be the Hegemony who has a clear shot at Fort Garnik, if they can acquire some long range artillery.

 

And yes, it does have an impact, refer to my previous arguments for details. Noting that the PAC (which ironically only the C-9979 is configured to carry) is not an aerial transport, and its not a fit substitute for this role.

 

Simply put, you have no grounds to dispute its existence, it is perfectly permissible by the rules and in so far, 100 pages in, it has yet to be disputed by Aurbere. So I am going to move on, and assuming the landing craft is still in play.

[Beniboybling]

2. What autoturrets? Why would the AT-TEs even need to move much to get a good shot at the Mannett Point it's visible from the base. In fact some of the HWS could set up a mortar there and shell the point.

 

3. TXs have speed, armor, shields, and a nice complement of weapons. They are not slow moving vehicles like the UT-AT (top speed of 45 Km/h, that's 1/5 of the speed of the TX btw).

 

5. I have no clue what you mean here, please reword for the simple minded.

 

6. GA has stormtroopers...storm commandoes were pulled out of stormtrooper ranks...wouldn't they know something...I mean they would have had some communication with them, it's not like military units are so divided that they never see each other.

 

AT-STs are highly modifiable, I wouldn't be surprised if they had an advanced sensor modification.

The bridge to Mannett Point is defended by autoturrets, and I'm afraid that's not true, as I have said the map is clearly scaled down for the sake of game mechanics. They are going to have to move to the beach and mines will be waiting.

 

My point about the UT-AT was that is is proof at Octupurra can one-shot medium sized tanks. And considering the 360 degree firing range, extremely rapid rate of fire, and lack of space to maneuver, speed will be a non-factor.

 

Not sure what part was not clear...

 

Sure, but they don't know the Storm Commandos are in play so what does it matter what they know?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.

[Beniboybling]

OK a little late, but to make some counter arguments to prior points.

 

So, Storm Commandos. These are covert units that operate in small squads. They are not going to be "overwhelming" anyone, in fact best case scenario is that they do not engage anyone at all, and anyone they are forced to will be dispatched swiftly and most important silently. And I cannot stress enough that as covert units, less is more. Sending 40 commandos into anyone situation would only decrease their chances of success because it exponentially increases the chance that they will be spotted. Whereas a squad of 3 or 4 will prove far more devastating.

 

They also have several advantages, in terms of Mannett Point as I have said it will be lightly guarded, the battle is on the other side of the island, they cannot afford to dedicate to many forces to guarding this position without weakening their offense and defense elsewhere. On top of that for maximum effectiveness the AT-TEs will likely be guarding the bridge i.e. outside the fortress walls, detached from the rest of the base and therefore exposed.

 

In terms of Fort Garnik itself, any attack on this base will be the result of time and planning, lets not assume sabotage of the artillery will happen all at once. Taking Manett Point will be the initial priority. Indeed Lumiya will ensure that her resources are not spread thin and stagger her assaults to assure maximum effectiveness and manpower.

 

Which means they can acquire several more advantages. Infiltrating the base from top to toe with informants, moles, spies, double-agents, defectors etc. etc. which will make it much easier for the Storm Commandos to succeed.

 

If we really want to get into numbers, 1 squad of 3 to 6 will be all that's necessary to take out a group of AT-TEs which might I add, would be positioned in close proximity to one another, and 1 more squad to take down the generator. That is a maximum of a dozen storm commandos for Mannett Point, not exactly breaking the bank.

 

And once Mannett Point is captured, they can divert those commandos to setting up ambushes.

 

Are the Storm Commandos winning the Kaggath for the Hegemony here? No, they are softening up their enemies for assault, or rather they are fulfilling what as Storm Commandos they were supposed to do.

 

And finally, I'd note that reflec is described as a "light-warping, sensor stopping polymer", at the very least its going to cover the electromagnetic spectrum, which for the record heat and ultra-violet are a part of. Night vision will not serve them here, though I think standard night vision uses works by intensifying light sources. Which is probably what they'd be using most of the time so they'd be seeing this as opposed to the rather disorientating alternative.

[karadron]

As I have said, transports of this kind would be deployed prior to the Kaggath, with the main force, for the main force.

 

Even assuming the in-game size is exact, I'm afraid that's not the case. But as we know it is not. The Separatist Base will be several kilometers away, if not several hundred, not to mention many kilometres above sea level.

 

If anything it will be the Hegemony who has a clear shot at Fort Garnik, if they can acquire some long range artillery.

 

And yes, it does have an impact, refer to my previous arguments for details. Noting that the PAC (which ironically only the C-9979 is configured to carry) is not an aerial transport, and its not a fit substitute for this role.

 

Simply put, you have no grounds to dispute its existence, it is perfectly permissible by the rules and in so far, 100 pages in, it has yet to be disputed by Aurbere. So I am going to move on, and assuming the landing craft is still in play.

 

Considering that the Codex Entry linked heavily implies that Garnik lies in artillery range of the Separatist base, and said base is farther from the fort than Mannett Point in game. Therefore Garnik can hit both with artillery, and what is to stop them from aiming higher anyways? Artillery doesn't have to fire in a straight line. And even if they are kilometers away the AT-TEs range has given the GA that advantage off the start. Add in the fact that the HWS will have artillery of some sort, since it was part of their standard arsenal and either can be hit even if kilometers away.

 

Except previous discussion has put the PAC in the position of the standard transport for the PH--over the MTT and any others until stated differently by the Arbiter.

 

The bridge to Mannett Point is defended by autoturrets, and I'm afraid that's not true, as I have said the map is clearly scaled down for the sake of game mechanics. They are going to have to move to the beach and mines will be waiting.

 

My point about the UT-AT was that is is proof at Octupurra can one-shot medium sized tanks. And considering the 360 degree firing range, extremely rapid rate of fire, and lack of space to maneuver, speed will be a non-factor.

 

Not sure what part was not clear...

 

Sure, but they don't know the Storm Commandos are in play so what does it matter what they know?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.

 

 

Just because it is scaled down doesn't mean that it will put the Mannett Point out of the range of fire.

 

That all depends on whether or not the Octupurras can hit them, and the TXs are fast while the other vehicle described is not, speed does have advantages in this case. Of course it only has 48 rounds to fire before it has to replenish, which would put them out of combat for awhile at least.

 

 

The point just wasn't clear, at least to me.

[Beniboybling]

Considering that the Codex Entry linked heavily implies that Garnik lies in artillery range of the Separatist base, and said base is farther from the fort than Mannett Point in game. Therefore Garnik can hit both with artillery, and what is to stop them from aiming higher anyways? Artillery doesn't have to fire in a straight line. And even if they are kilometers away the AT-TEs range has given the GA that advantage off the start. Add in the fact that the HWS will have artillery of some sort, since it was part of their standard arsenal and either can be hit even if kilometers away.

 

Except previous discussion has put the PAC in the position of the standard transport for the PH--over the MTT and any others until stated differently by the Arbiter.

I don't feel the codex entries heavily imply anything of the sort.

 

On the other hand what it does say is this:

 

This position gives the separatists multiple access points to the island’s settlements, as well as a predator’s eye view of Fort Garnik itself...

 

...Regardless, taking out the separatist stronghold has proven almost impossible. Any attack on foot exposes the invading force to withering counterattacks and heavy casualties, but artillery strikes on the volcano risk flooding the entire island with lava.

 

Not only does that imply artillery is not an option, but it gives the Hegemony some advantages it can use.

[Silenceo]

 

My point about the UT-AT was that is is proof at Octupurra can one-shot medium sized tanks. And considering the 360 degree firing range, extremely rapid rate of fire, and lack of space to maneuver, speed will be a non-factor.

 

Stop. Just stop... You are combining the shining attributes of two different variants of that vehicle. It does not have both. There are Octupurra equipped with missiles, which can 1 shot a UT-AT which is specifically made to be lighter armored by a large margin than the AT-TE so that it could traverse unstable bridges without risk. Even then, it is specifically pointed out that it was only taken out by a single shot because the missile hit bellow it, essentially knocking out its repulsors. The missile variant packs a punch, but has less range and slower firing rate. The laser variants lasers seem quite meh, but longer range, still not too precise though, granted a better fire rate.

 

You keep combining multiple variants into a single vehicle, both with the Octupurra and the AT-TE. Please, for the love of my sanity, stop!

[Beniboybling]

Stop. Just stop... You are combining the shining attributes of two different variants of that vehicle. It does not have both. There are Octupurra equipped with missiles, which can 1 shot a UT-AT which is specifically made to be lighter armored by a large margin than the AT-TE so that it could traverse unstable bridges without risk. Even then, it is specifically pointed out that it was only taken out by a single shot because the missile hit bellow it, essentially knocking out its repulsors. The missile variant packs a punch, but has less range and slower firing rate. The laser variants lasers seem quite meh, but longer range, still not too precise though, granted a better fire rate.

 

You keep combining multiple variants into a single vehicle, both with the Octupurra and the AT-TE. Please, for the love of my sanity, stop!

OK... any evidence that suggests the laser cannon variant was faster? And had a greater range?

 

And I was not aware there was more than one version of an AT-TE.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Beniboybling