Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Galactic Alliance vs Phantom Hegemony

[Beniboybling]

Imperial Intelligence from Bastion to Ord Mantell still equals time.

 

The center of the Island allows for easy flanking. The TXs can hit from the rear and pull out quickly--fastest vehicle in play. The SpecOps and Stormtroopers can hit them from the high ground. The AT-TEs can use their Mass drivers from a distance. As well looking as the strategies laid out for the PH require them to be in formation, and on a relatively small island that will require them to be in close proximity. Close proximity means that artillery will be much more effective, as well as grenades and other weapons with such capabilities.

Does it? I'd say the presence of the ravines and the various bottlenecks would do the opposite.

 

Not sure what the size of the island has to do with proximity...

[karadron]

Does it? I'd say the presence of the ravines and the various bottlenecks would do the opposite.

 

Not sure what the size of the island has to do with proximity...

 

Most of the center of the island would be in a ravine, the easiest way to travel the island is through the "lowlands".

 

Bottlenecks have more often than not served as the bane of larger more organized forces, like the PH.

 

The area between the ravine walls for instance would require the B2s army to get in a close formation offering the perfect layout for a surprise attack. The other option would be to move through in a single-file line or scout ahead to make sure that no one is there. The first is plausible the second not as much.

[Beniboybling]

Most of the center of the island would be in a ravine, the easiest way to travel the island is through the "lowlands".

 

Bottlenecks have more often than not served as the bane of larger more organized forces, like the PH.

 

The area between the ravine walls for instance would require the B2s army to get in a close formation offering the perfect layout for a surprise attack. The other option would be to move through in a single-file line or scout ahead to make sure that no one is there. The first is plausible the second not as much.

Well that's why they have war droids, AT-MPs and Octupurras, I doubt Grievous will put many B2s into effect here.

 

They can more easily man the bottlenecks and obliterate anything that attempts to pass through. And as well-defended units only through overwhelming firepower can they be destroyed, which the bottlenecks will make difficult to bear.

 

EDIT: Preadators can be put into effect here too, the ravines will effectively trap the enemy for them.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Canino]

The title is misleading, the battle took place in the Both system, but Grievous was routed before he ever reached Bothawui. The Bothans may have arguably been blissfully unaware of the whole conflict.

 

They don't, they really really don't. Lets be clear hear, the Alliance's SpecForce troops are front line infantry, they are the backbone of the Alliance Military, they are good at shooting, very good at shooting. But they are not infiltrators, they do not possess any of the skills that a Storm Commando does and are fundamentally different in purpose.

 

That is why the Alliance has 460 more.

 

Anyway as I say, Lumiya does not need 40 Storm Commandos on the ground to achieve her aims. Storm Commandos generally operated effectively in squads of 3 to 6. 40 is more than enough to achieve all her objectives.

 

Beni, you and I both know that this a crock of BS. You're trying to tell me that the Bothans, the very people that out do Imperial Intelligence in information, never learned that their system was attacked? And that their attacker is on the enemy team?

 

We should also note that not all Storm Commandos where infiltrators, Beni.

 

"A unit of Storm Commandos could range from 4 to 40 commandos in strength, divided into four equal parts. The first were standard commandos trained and equipped as line units. The second were assault specialists with additional training on how to operate vehicle and artillery blasters. The third were designated saboteurs and particularly resourceful even for Storm Commandos, given extra training in stealth, demolition and countering security systems. The last part were dedicated tech units meant to repair (or jury-rig) a wide array of technology, often assisting saboteurs."

 

They all had stealth training, but only a few where used for infiltrating and sabotage. So, that would be ten men. The rest are merely commandos with some stealth training, but nothing special.

[Beniboybling]

Beni, you and I both know that this a crock of BS. You're trying to tell me that the Bothans, the very people that out do Imperial Intelligence in information, never learned that their system was attacked? And that their attacker is on the enemy team?

 

We should also note that not all Storm Commandos where infiltrators, Beni.

 

"A unit of Storm Commandos could range from 4 to 40 commandos in strength, divided into four equal parts. The first were standard commandos trained and equipped as line units. The second were assault specialists with additional training on how to operate vehicle and artillery blasters. The third were designated saboteurs and particularly resourceful even for Storm Commandos, given extra training in stealth, demolition and countering security systems. The last part were dedicated tech units meant to repair (or jury-rig) a wide array of technology, often assisting saboteurs."

 

They all had stealth training, but only a few where used for infiltrating and sabotage. So, that would be ten men. The rest are merely commandos with some stealth training, but nothing special.

"Do the Bothans know what Grievous plans? They must. They're Bothans. But why haven't they told us, why haven't they—"

"They don't know. There's a good chance I'm the only one who does. Me and my source. And now you. It was an accident she found out. And she only risked telling me to pay back a life debt. Obi-Wan… You Jedi can't let Grievous get his metal hands on Bothawui."

 

―Obi-Wan Kenobi learns of General Grievous's impending invasion of Bothawui from Dexter Jettster

 

Perhaps the Bothans aren't as perfect as you assume them to be. Note that the Bothans were neutral. Even if they did eventually become aware of the situation, I really doubt they would have taken offense, or hold a grudge.

 

All Storm Commandos received stealth training, and they were all equipped with state of the art stealth technology, they were nicknamed shadowmen for a reason, because covert operations were their mandate. All your highlighting here is that on top of that Storm Commandos possessed a wide variety of skills on top of basic covert capabilities.

 

If you want to provide some proof that the training this elite commandos received was "nothing special" then go ahead.

 

EDIT: Remember, Storm Commando squads are divided into 4 equal parts, if only one of said 4 was capable of proper infiltration, then the other three would be dead weight when performing any covert operation.

 

EDIT: And finally I'd add to that that in terms of infiltration and sabotage agents from Imperial Intelligence can employed to supplement the Storm Commandos, all in all they will not be running low on operatives.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Canino]

1. With what forces, what bridge and what crew?

 

Though this could easily be avoided if the Malevolence is moved to a secret location.

 

Considering the bridge of the Malevolcence was it's communication hub, the Malevolence also has no way of communicating with its crew or the rest of the fleet. That would make it quite easy to board via a StealthX, and take over. Then, once it was in the hands of Tholme, better repair droids could be used to fix it- like the LE-series.

 

And moved? Haha

 

Ziro is just the sort of Hutt Lumiya needs, powerful and influential but not enough to prove a threat to her. If the Alliance wants Ziro dead, Tholme will have to come personally, a two-bit assassin will hardly do. Noting that Ziro could likely aquire some IG-86 droids to protect him, considered some of the deadliest droids in the galaxy.

 

Some two bit assassin? Try an Anzati assassin. You know, a centuries old killer, like the one that hunted Oppo Rancisis, Quinlan, Jabba- the list goes on. These are Force Users as well, but they are masters of concealment. They can use TK, manipulate minds, and hold people in a TK grip that is almost impossible to break. Even Ziro would lose, with his Hutt mind trick protection.

 

And IG-86's? TK and pure skill. These assassins have killed or worked over Jedi Councilmen before.

 

2. 501st Infiltrators? First I've heard of them.

 

Considering the 501st was made up of the best troops, I'm sure a few of them are stealth experts. Vader wanted the best- it didn't matter what their skills where.

 

3. Lumiya is not just any old Imperial agent, I don't see any evidence that suggests he is better than her. And its not the threat of violence that will sway the Bothans, its the promise of power and security, its doing what they always do.

 

And Tholme isn't just some everyday tactician. He fought wits and cunning against Dooku and won (not in actual combat), and survived the Purge. That alone demands cunning. And IIRC none of Lumyia's schemes ever worked out- Tholme on the other hand succeed quite often.

 

She's a great agent, but she never went up against a mind lie Tholme. However, Tholme went up against, and won multiple times, against Dooku, who is arguably better than Lumiya.

 

4. Fair enough, however Tholme is a member of the Alliance here, he can't exactly run off and hide.

 

He won't need to. He will be revealed only when he wants to be.

 

5. Space superiority? With what fleet? A couple of Dreadnaughts and a squad of Phantoms? They won't even make it to allied territory, Lumiya will dispatch Storm Commandos to eliminate them in short order.

 

Not that such a piece meal force could prevent a tech out fleet of smugglers and pirates from landing planet side. Heck a pirate ambush would be all they would need to take out that handful of, may I add, damaged cruisers.

 

And please do send the fleet to Bastion, its defenses are ready and waiting to welcome unexpected guests.

 

Commandos won't make it in the air if the Malevolence is taken. Garm and Palleon would obviously alert Tholme/the new crew if GA where coming. If not, fire on anything that moves. A couple fighters? Dead.

 

Sure the force would start weak. But remember, the GA will have access to much better repair/maintenance droids. They can repair much faster than your forces.

 

6. Lumiya's lightwhip, though deadly, would be the least of their worries. They'd have to contend with Savage, War Droids, Commando droids, grapple droids, B2s (heck throw in a gunship!) and storm commandos as well.

 

Lumiya will have a small army ready and waiting to receive them.

 

If you don't use Savage properly, you don't deserve him

 

No, but really. Isn't that the only reason Luke didn't defeat her, like, 8 times? He fought her on numerous occasions, but never won b/c of the whip. Then he learns, and slaughters her.

[karadron]

Well that's why they have war droids, AT-MPs and Octupurras, I doubt Grievous will put many B2s into effect here.

 

They can more easily man the bottlenecks and obliterate anything that attempts to pass through. And as well-defended units only through overwhelming firepower can they be destroyed, which the bottlenecks will make difficult to bear.

 

EDIT: Preadators can be put into effect here too, the ravines will effectively trap the enemy for them.

 

What Predators? All the PH's space force was dedicated to tri-fighters. Considering all fighters must be fielded from space in one way or another, and the Predators were not, all numbers calculated only used tri-fighters. Therefore there would be no Predators available for ground usage.

 

After thought: Even though the AT-MPs and Octupurras could hold a bottleneck against a frontal, and to some extent flanking assaults. They cannot match the range of the AT-TE and the AT-MPs would be fairly easy to hit from above. And with dedicated SpecOps dedicated to taking out vehicles they should pose no real problem.

Edited October 19, 2014 by karadron

[Aurbere]

And Tholme isn't just some everyday tactician. He fought wits and cunning against Dooku and won (not in actual combat), and survived the Purge. That alone demands cunning. And IIRC none of Lumyia's schemes ever worked out- Tholme on the other hand succeed quite often.

 

She's a great agent, but she never went up against a mind lie Tholme. However, Tholme went up against, and won multiple times, against Dooku, who is arguably better than Lumiya.

 

Could you prove that, for me? I don't remember Tholme outwitting Dooku on a consistent basis. In fact, I remember the opposite.

[Canino]

"Do the Bothans know what Grievous plans? They must. They're Bothans. But why haven't they told us, why haven't they—"

"They don't know. There's a good chance I'm the only one who does. Me and my source. And now you. It was an accident she found out. And she only risked telling me to pay back a life debt. Obi-Wan… You Jedi can't let Grievous get his metal hands on Bothawui."

 

―Obi-Wan Kenobi learns of General Grievous's impending invasion of Bothawui from Dexter Jettster

 

Perhaps the Bothans aren't as perfect as you assume them to be. Note that the Bothans were neutral. Even if they did eventually become aware of the situation, I really doubt they would have taken offense, or hold a grudge.

 

All Storm Commandos received stealth training, and they were all equipped with state of the art stealth technology, they were nicknamed shadowmen for a reason, because covert operations were their mandate. All your highlighting here is that on top of that Storm Commandos possessed a wide variety of skills on top of basic covert capabilities.

 

If you want to provide some proof that the training this elite commandos received was "nothing special" then go ahead.

 

EDIT: Remember, Storm Commando squads are divided into 4 equal parts, if only one of said 4 was capable of proper infiltration, then the other three would be dead weight when performing any covert operation.

 

EDIT: And finally I'd add to that that in terms of infiltration and sabotage agents from Imperial Intelligence can employed to supplement the Storm Commandos, all in all they will not be running low on operatives.

 

Doubt they would hold a grudge? Or maybe they where simply looking out for number 1. That Death Star doesn't need to be coming near Bothwui, if you know what I mean. Their philosophy and all.

 

And that's not actually true. You only need a few people to actually infiltrate- the others cover you, and make sure no one else finds you. Tech, slicing, surveillance, distractions- I wouldn't call that dead weight.

They were typically deployed into squads that consisted between three to six commandos. However, in certain missions that were considered suicide, squads consisted only of one or two individuals

 

"They were typically deployed into squads that consisted between three to six commandos. However, in certain missions that were considered suicide, squads consisted only of one or two individuals."

 

I'd like to see the source for them all receiving state of the art stealth tech and stealth training, cause I don't see it. I see some equipment, but nothing "state of the art". Not even a stealth belt. And nowhere on the wiki does it mention extensive training. Source?

 

A nickname means nothing. All it means is they wear black armor.

[karadron]

"Do the Bothans know what Grievous plans? They must. They're Bothans. But why haven't they told us, why haven't they—"

"They don't know. There's a good chance I'm the only one who does. Me and my source. And now you. It was an accident she found out. And she only risked telling me to pay back a life debt. Obi-Wan… You Jedi can't let Grievous get his metal hands on Bothawui."

 

―Obi-Wan Kenobi learns of General Grievous's impending invasion of Bothawui from Dexter Jettster

 

Perhaps the Bothans aren't as perfect as you assume them to be. Note that the Bothans were neutral. Even if they did eventually become aware of the situation, I really doubt they would have taken offense, or hold a grudge.

 

All Storm Commandos received stealth training, and they were all equipped with state of the art stealth technology, they were nicknamed shadowmen for a reason, because covert operations were their mandate. All your highlighting here is that on top of that Storm Commandos possessed a wide variety of skills on top of basic covert capabilities.

 

If you want to provide some proof that the training this elite commandos received was "nothing special" then go ahead.

 

EDIT: Remember, Storm Commando squads are divided into 4 equal parts, if only one of said 4 was capable of proper infiltration, then the other three would be dead weight when performing any covert operation.

 

EDIT: And finally I'd add to that that in terms of infiltration and sabotage agents from Imperial Intelligence can employed to supplement the Storm Commandos, all in all they will not be running low on operatives.

 

Bothan's don't hold grudges? Tell that to the Yuuzhan Vong.

[Canino]

Could you prove that, for me? I don't remember Tholme outwitting Dooku on a consistent basis. In fact, I remember the opposite.

 

Saleucami, Bakura ("What Tholme and his agents were able to predict, however, were Dooku's movements. Along with Sora Bulq, Tholme waited on Bakura for the arrival of the Count, and the opportunity to launch his ambush. However, Dooku, now a Sith Lord, was able to defeat both Jedi Masters with ease.)", and the beginning of the Vos's mission.

 

Dooku did eventually use Vos against Tholme, but like the first Dooku/Tholme engagement, Tholme faked his death and escaped. But that is still 2:1 in Tholme's favor.

[Beniboybling]

What Predators? All the PH's space force was dedicated to tri-fighters. Considering all fighters must be fielded from space in one way or another, and the Predators were not, all numbers calculated only used tri-fighters. Therefore there would be no Predators available for ground usage.

Err what? I'm being stripped of my gunships because what?

[Aurbere]

Saleucami, Bakura ("What Tholme and his agents were able to predict, however, were Dooku's movements. Along with Sora Bulq, Tholme waited on Bakura for the arrival of the Count, and the opportunity to launch his ambush. However, Dooku, now a Sith Lord, was able to defeat both Jedi Masters with ease.)", and the beginning of the Vos's mission.

 

Dooku did eventually use Vos against Tholme, but like the first Dooku/Tholme engagement, Tholme faked his death and escaped. But that is still 2:1 in Tholme's favor.

 

Dooku knew Vos was Tholme's agent from the beginning*, so that reverses it back into Dooku's favor.

 

*"I've known the truth about you from the start, Quinlan Vos."

 

Tholme tracking Dooku to Bakura was a good one, though.

[Aurbere]

Err what? I'm being stripped of my gunships because what?

 

Yeah, I'm not sure how that is. You should get some gunships.

[Beniboybling]

Yeah, I'm not sure how that is. You should get some gunships.

Well they would be fielded along with the main force, being atmospheric vehicles.

[karadron]

Well they would be fielded along with the main force, being atmospheric vehicles.

 

But they were classified as the elite fighter force for the space battle. That's a completely different arena, and the choice should affect how they are used.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Just to clear some stuff.

 

The GCW 501st has only one special unit and that is those are the Imperial Commandos, other than that, they really are just regular Stormtroopers.

 

The Storm Commandos are a mixed bag, trained in a number of different things, most of which would involve stealth, they utlize the same hit and fade attack method the Alliance uses. However no, they don't really have state of the art stealth equipment. They have advanced stealth equipment, their armor coated with reflec that bends away light and sensor energy, but that's it.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Doubt they would hold a grudge? Or maybe they where simply looking out for number 1. That Death Star doesn't need to be coming near Bothwui, if you know what I mean. Their philosophy and all.

 

And that's not actually true. You only need a few people to actually infiltrate- the others cover you, and make sure no one else finds you. Tech, slicing, surveillance, distractions- I wouldn't call that dead weight.

They were typically deployed into squads that consisted between three to six commandos. However, in certain missions that were considered suicide, squads consisted only of one or two individuals

 

"They were typically deployed into squads that consisted between three to six commandos. However, in certain missions that were considered suicide, squads consisted only of one or two individuals."

 

I'd like to see the source for them all receiving state of the art stealth tech and stealth training, cause I don't see it. I see some equipment, but nothing "state of the art". Not even a stealth belt. And nowhere on the wiki does it mention extensive training. Source?

 

A nickname means nothing. All it means is they wear black armor.

Why dyou think they were black armour lawls.

 

Proof that they all recieved stealth training:

 

The members of the Storm Commandos were trained to perform covert assaults, precision strikes and sabotage operations against enemy forces...

 

...The third were designated saboteurs and particularly resourceful even for Storm Commandos, given extra training in stealth, demolition and countering security systems.

 

Record of the stealth technology they had, which they'd have to be trained to use:

 

Their armor was based on the scout trooper's light armor, though the black color most commonly seen earned them the nickname "shadow scouts"; it was enhanced with a coating of an advanced polymer called reflec, which deflected light and sensor energy. This made the wearers virtually invisible to all but the most determined of scans. The armor was designed by Dr. Nashiak Llalik. To support their mission profile, storm commando armor included a small generator that created a sound-dampening field, numerous concealed weapons, and a thermal detonator that a commando could detonate if faced with capture...

 

...Their speeder bikes were designed for silence and speed, with a trideflective energy shield that prevented detection.

 

Obviously if three out of four of the squad members can't avoid being spotted by the enemy they will be useless.

 

That said I really don't see your point, if you accept that Storm Commandos work as a cohesive unit then that doesn't change the fact that Lumiya has 10 squads capable of sabotage and infiltration at her disposal. Because despite the fact that some are better at infiltration than others, as you just stated the others are not dead weight.

 

I mean really what are you trying to say here? Because that seemed to be your original point.

[Beniboybling]

But they were classified as the elite fighter force for the space battle. That's a completely different arena, and the choice should affect how they are used.

I think you misunderstand, your choice of elite class does not have to be a fighter, it can also be a gunship, including those usable for the ground battle, as you cannot choose gunships as ground vehicles.

 

This is all lain out in the rules, nowhere in the rules I'm afraid is anything you said stated, I did, after all, write them.

 

Indeed I'd strongly contest that space is a "completely different arena" they are inherently linked. And in fact any "fighter" chosen for your naval force can participate in the ground battle if your faction is so inclined.

[karadron]

I think you misunderstand, your choice of elite class does not have to be a fighter, it can also be a gunship, including those usable for the ground battle, as you cannot choose gunships as ground vehicles.

 

This is all lain out in the rules, nowhere in the rules I'm afraid is anything you said stated, I did, after all, write them.

 

Indeed I'd strongly contest that space is a "completely different arena" they are inherently linked. And in fact any "fighter" chosen for your naval force can participate in the ground battle if your faction is so inclined.

 

I have seen the rule, and I think the reading of it could be contested. But, considering it is linked to naval force and in order to use fighters, et al, in the land engagement the base must be able to accommodate them. As it stands the PH's base then would have to compromise in being able to accommodate said gunships and supplies.

 

Of course if the TIEs were used in the ground battle, landing or taking off from the PH's base becomes...a lot more difficult.

 

I used arena for lack of a better term at the time.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Why dyou think they were black armour lawls.

 

Proof that they all recieved stealth training:

 

The members of the Storm Commandos were trained to perform covert assaults, precision strikes and sabotage operations against enemy forces...

 

...The third were designated saboteurs and particularly resourceful even for Storm Commandos, given extra training in stealth, demolition and countering security systems.

 

Beni, nowhere in my sources, which are noted as linked to that specific quote, mentions of any 'extra' stealth training, so the saboteurs don't have extra stealth training, they all have the same.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[RDeanOU]

So I am new to these discussions, and though I haven't participated, I have been following the Kaggath posts.

 

Based on what I am seeing, the GA has a massive advantage in the ground fighting. Their vehicles are more powerful, more numerous, and faster. Though the PH has more troops, the terrain is not to the advantage of someone trying to overwhelm with numerical superiority. Beni keeps attempting to spin it as if choke points and ravines are to his advantage, but in the history of warfare that kind of terrain always favors smaller, more versatile forces.

 

Add in the artillery advantage and I think the PH forces would be decimated.

 

Beni has suggested a strategy of deploying at Mannet point precisely because of its proximity to Fort Garnik and then he wants to ignore that it's impossible to deploy a force like that in such close proximity to the enemy base without being seen. Wide arcs, sensor jammers, etc. aren't going to be effective when this deployment could probably be observed with the naked eye. The GA artillery would turn a deployment like that into a massacre of the PH troops.

 

I see no path to victory for the PH force given this scenario.

[Silenceo]

New participants are always welcome!

 

As for the scenario at hand, I full heartedly agree. Even if the PH does manage to take that location as a staging point, they could be bombarded 24/7 by most, if not all, of the long range weaponry of the GA. As for choke points, it indeed favors smaller forces with greater skill more than large armies, not to mention B2's were not designed for that sort of warfare.

[Aurbere]

It's always good to see new participants.

[RDeanOU]

Thank you.

 

Another issue is that Fort Garnik is a strategically superior position and Beni has endorsed an aggressive strategy (which I think is probably accurate given his commanders). This also aids in nullifying his numerical advantage. The PH forces are making a direct assault over terrain that does not lend itself to their large formations against a commanding position fortified with artillery. Their advance would expose them to the kind of hit and run tactics that the GA and its spec ops troops excel at.