Wolfninjajedi Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Sil, AT-STs can go virtually anywhere. O.o Why you saying they can't go everywhere? All Terrain don't mean that no more? Edited October 17, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Sil, AT-STs can go virtually anywhere. O.o Why you saying they can't go everywhere? All Terrain don't mean that no more? They can't swim...can they?! If they can, I swear I will re-evaluate! Mostly what I meant was that they can go just about anywhere, but can not scale cliffs like the Octuptarra magna tri-droid, and their footing can slip if the ground is too unstable. *I hate Endor...* Edited October 17, 2014 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) They can't swim...can they?! If they can, I swear I will re-evaluate! Mostly what I meant was that they can go just about anywhere, but can not scale cliffs like the Octuptarra magna tri-droid, and their footing can slip if the ground is too unstable. *I hate Endor...* Well obviously if the ground is unstable, but then that part on Endor was due to surprise more than anything, the pilots weren't aware of anything that could cause instability. Sure they can't scale cliffs, but they wouldn't really need to if they can get up another way. But no, there hasn't been an All Terrain Walker design for aquatic purposes. Edited October 17, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Well obviously if the ground is unstable, but then that part on Endor was due to surprise more than anything. Sure they can't scale cliffs, but they wouldn't really need to if they can get up another way. But no, there hasn't been an All Terrain Walker design for aquatic purposes. Bah, they need to invent a AT-FS-ST All Terrain Flying Swimming Scout Transport. With a Transformers vibe... ... ... ... ... ... /sarcasm I wasn't trying to say that the AT-ST could only stick to the roads, merely that there are quite a few rocky ridges where it likely would need to be careful or find another way around in the battle field. Though, I wonder if the AT-TE's could just scale that mountain and just troll the PH that way. Super Climbing Feet, ENGAGE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) So I know we wanted to move on from defection arguments but I thought I would clear some things up: 1.Garm Bel Iblis did fight in the Yuuzhan Vong war, alongside Imperials and came to respect them, he even recognized the fact that the galaxy needed the Imperial government and it's military to survive, he was then respected in turn by many Imperial officers. 2.The Clones hated and I mean hated the CIS droids and so did every Imperial after the war, in-fact one of the reasons that Palpatine didn't take them over and instantly boost his military might, is because he knew the Empire would never ever accept them into Imperial society after the biggest war yet waged with said droids committing truly horrendous acts. 3.Gilad Pallaeon commanded more respect from Imperial Army and Stormtrooper Corps soldiers than any other Imperial Officer in the galaxy throughout the post-Endor period: "Gilad was seen by many Imperials as the one legitimate progressive Commander they had and among all the numerous Warlords and lunatics that tried to take control, he was the only one who showed true loyalty to the Imperial way and it's remaining systems." "More popular than ever for managing to carry the Remnant and stopping it's dissolution, Many Imperial soldiers would trust Pallaeon with the fate of the Empire. A truly commanding figure, respected for his commitment to order." 4.The Bothan Spynet also built bridges to the Empire through the Galactic Alliance, though only as a means of survival, like every other faction they united to stop the inexorable annihilation of the galaxy from the Vong. 5.Lumiya was not seen as trust-worthy by a lot of the GA, including Imperials because she was well-known for double-crossing and sacrificing on numerous occasions Imperial goals for her own. Seemingly more obsessed with the Jedi than the survival of the Empire. 6.Grievous, if any member of the CIS was the poster-boy to the Galactic Republic of evil, it was Grievous, even more than Dooku. Grievous was literally the boogeyman of the time and he was hated more than any other member of the CIS by a large margin. Killed dozens of Jedi, kidnapped the Chancellor, ordered countless war crimes against Republic systems and the list goes on. The Empire and the Rebellion built bridges and became the Galactic Alliance eventually, the CIS was never given that measure of respect and was wiped out, as much as possible. Grievous, the man who kidnapped the Emperor and a droid army? you can be damn sure that HARDCORE Imperials like the Storm Commandos would absolutely switch sides. THE Imperial hero Gilad Pallaeon leading the legendary 501st? with the grand-daughter of VADER? given that they will know that Garm, his rebels and the Bothans became eventual allies, that bump in the road could be fairly easily overcome. Defection? This is definitely a possibility and a very strong one. I see the Storm Commandos even trying to destroy the Malevolence as they switch over. Edited October 17, 2014 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 You sure do have a way of making things sound a lot more convincing than when I try to do it Lk. If the Storm Commandos switch sides (likely hurting the PH as they defect) the probability of GA victory goes up exponentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Good thing to have various people deep into different eras, rather than just relying on 1 person. Such a headache to have on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Bah, hit the wrong button and it printed an exact copy of my last post without even hitting reply... Odd... Might as well use this post for something! What do you all think are the pros and cons of the several versions of the 501st? Side Note: This shall be a blasphemous statement but... Defeat Beni, Karadron! Defeat the Emperor of the Kaggath! You have the power, now use it! Edited October 17, 2014 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Bah, hit the wrong button and it printed an exact copy of my last post without even hitting reply... Odd... Might as well use this post for something! What do you all think are the pros and cons of the several versions of the 501st? Side Note: This shall be a blasphemous statement but... Defeat Beni, Karadron! Defeat the Emperor of the Kaggath! You have the power, now use it! There really isn't all that much different, it isn't until the 501st started recruiting non-humans and losing the Imperial Academy on Carida, is where I would say that they diminish overall in stature. Clone Wars era- GCW era, I would place that to be their primes. As I say again though, post GCW era 501st would be difficult to pin as the capabilities, considering they were pulling aliens into the ranks and thus that opens up a whole other set of variables. Edited October 17, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) There really isn't all that much different, it isn't until the 501st started recruiting non-humans and losing the Imperial Academy on Carida, is where I would say that they diminish overall in stature. Clone Wars era- GCW era, I would place that to be their primes. As I say again though, post GCW era 501st would be difficult to pin as the capabilities, considering they were pulling aliens into the ranks and thus that opens up a whole other set of variables. Hmm... If it is during the GCW, then they will carry with them their reputation and experience. However, the Clone Wars Era (late) likely would a better fit with their forces as they are, since they had helped many rebels set themselves up to defend themselves against the CIS, as well as having a high concentration of Clone Troopers. I do wonder how old the clones who lived to Endor would be though, due to the accelerated aging process I mean. Side Note: Aliens might get offended by your comment Wolf. Blaming the decline of the Legendary 501st on their admittance. After Thought: Karadron PM'd me earlier looking for details, as far as I know he is trying to decide between GCW and Clone Wars. Though I can not read his mind from this distance, so he very well could be considering the later incarnations. Edited October 17, 2014 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Hmm... If it is during the GCW, then they will carry with them their reputation and experience. However, the Clone Wars Era (late) likely would a better fit with their forces as they are, since they had helped many rebels set themselves up to defend themselves against the CIS, as well as having a high concentration of Clone Troopers. I do wonder how old the clones who lived to Endor would be though, due to the accelerated aging process I mean. Side Note: Aliens might get offended by your comment Wolf. Blaming the decline of the Legendary 501st on their admittance. After Thought: Karadron PM'd me earlier looking for details, as far as I know he is trying to decide between GCW and Clone Wars. Though I can not read his mind from this distance, so he very well could be considering the later incarnations. Tbh, there wouldn't be many Jango related clones by Endor for the 501st. They were replaced by humans and other clones from other templates, they were killed and did die after all throughout the course of the GCW. I'm not blaming the aliens, just that it opens up other various variables, like what species they are and so on, their attributes and such. The decline is actually moreso due to the loss of the Imperial Academy of Carida, which was the top training facility for Stormtroopers. Karadron did PM me too on it and I just told him, either incarnation is good enough, it's negligible really between the two eras. Edited October 17, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 So I know we wanted to move on from defection arguments but I thought I would clear some things up: 1.Garm Bel Iblis did fight in the Yuuzhan Vong war, alongside Imperials and came to respect them, he even recognized the fact that the galaxy needed the Imperial government and it's military to survive, he was then respected in turn by many Imperial officers. 2.The Clones hated and I mean hated the CIS droids and so did every Imperial after the war, in-fact one of the reasons that Palpatine didn't take them over and instantly boost his military might, is because he knew the Empire would never ever accept them into Imperial society after the biggest war yet waged with said droids committing truly horrendous acts. 3.Gilad Pallaeon commanded more respect from Imperial Army and Stormtrooper Corps soldiers than any other Imperial Officer in the galaxy throughout the post-Endor period: "Gilad was seen by many Imperials as the one legitimate progressive Commander they had and among all the numerous Warlords and lunatics that tried to take control, he was the only one who showed true loyalty to the Imperial way and it's remaining systems." "More popular than ever for managing to carry the Remnant and stopping it's dissolution, Many Imperial soldiers would trust Pallaeon with the fate of the Empire. A truly commanding figure, respected for his commitment to order." 4.The Bothan Spynet also built bridges to the Empire through the Galactic Alliance, though only as a means of survival, like every other faction they united to stop the inexorable annihilation of the galaxy from the Vong. 5.Lumiya was not seen as trust-worthy by a lot of the GA, including Imperials because she was well-known for double-crossing and sacrificing on numerous occasions Imperial goals for her own. Seemingly more obsessed with the Jedi than the survival of the Empire. 6.Grievous, if any member of the CIS was the poster-boy to the Galactic Republic of evil, it was Grievous, even more than Dooku. Grievous was literally the boogeyman of the time and he was hated more than any other member of the CIS by a large margin. Killed dozens of Jedi, kidnapped the Chancellor, ordered countless war crimes against Republic systems and the list goes on. The Empire and the Rebellion built bridges and became the Galactic Alliance eventually, the CIS was never given that measure of respect and was wiped out, as much as possible. Grievous, the man who kidnapped the Emperor and a droid army? you can be damn sure that HARDCORE Imperials like the Storm Commandos would absolutely switch sides. THE Imperial hero Gilad Pallaeon leading the legendary 501st? with the grand-daughter of VADER? given that they will know that Garm, his rebels and the Bothans became eventual allies, that bump in the road could be fairly easily overcome. Defection? This is definitely a possibility and a very strong one. I see the Storm Commandos even trying to destroy the Malevolence as they switch over.As I said before, this is all sentiment, and in no way actually related to the facts of the conflict. 1. The droids, as I said before, are tools, and will be treated as such. They can in know way be affiliated with the the ideals and the actions of the CIS. That would be purely sentimental. 2. Grievous is a war criminal, yes, but who are the Storm Commandos to judge, who themselves and their Empire commit atrocities on a daily basis? They will recognize Grievous as somebody prepared to do what it takes, and again as a tool, not as a political leader which it was made obvious to everyone that he was not. He just wants to kill Jedi. 3. How can an Imperial agents, Shadow Hand and Emperor's Hand be well known? I find that hard to believe. Storm Commandos are "hardcore" as you say, but that does not imply they are sentimental, their fanatic loyalty to the Empire should in know way conflict with that same Empire using tools to achieve a means to an end. The ideals of that Empire still remain in tact, and only by being blinded by sentiment would a Storm Commando consider defecting. On the other hand here are the facts, not sentiments, of the Galactic Alliance. 1. They are working with Rebels and Jedi, and are as such, traitors. Who do you really think the Storm Commandos will despise more, a 2 decade old war criminal and a pile of metal, or those responsible for murdering their Emperor. And of course the Jedi attempted to assassinate the Emperor themselves and destroy the Republic. Grievous' stunt pales in comparison to those crimes. 2. Lumiya is an Imperial, and their superior. Whether or not they have reason to doubt her they are duty-bound to obey her every command, the fact that she has the backing of Imperial Intelligence however legitimizes her authority. And it is quite apparent from Wolf's example that Storm Commandos are not only prepared to follow orders, but prepared to follow orders that would put them against those previously loyal and respected within the Empire. 3. This are GCW era Storm Commandos, they were not there to see bridges built, only burnt down. Again, I reject the notion that Storm Commandos will defect, even if they did not trust Lumiya they're discipline would override any sentiment and force them to obey. Not that they will ever consider joining up with traitors guilty of regicide. P.S. I laugh at the fact that Jaina being a relative of Vader gives her any authority at all over the Storm Commandos. Not that Lumiya is even going to bother sharing that information with them. She is a Jedi. The enemy by default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 You assume that sentiment bares no relevance, clones and imperials alike hated the CIS and their 'clankers'. You are vastly down-playing the amount of hatred the Republic had for the CIS and thus the Imperials share the same, Sidious himself knows and states this. Lumiya was well-known among the moffs and top ranking officials after Endor for being exactly what I stated, regardless of whether you believe it or not. The Rebels became allies to the Empire, the CIS were loathed. Massive, massive difference there. Grievous and his forces were completely reviled and this will have a huge effect on the Storm Commandos, the Storm Commandos will know the following: after Endor the Empire and the Rebellion continued their conflict until both sides realised the war was going nowhere and signed a treaty, they then fought together against the Yuuzhan Vong and became a unified faction. The Rebels and Iblis will not be seen as anywhere near as bad as Grievous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 You assume that sentiment bares no relevance, clones and imperials alike hated the CIS and their 'clankers'. You are vastly down-playing the amount of hatred the Republic had for the CIS and thus the Imperials share the same, Sidious himself knows and states this. Lumiya was well-known among the moffs and top ranking officials after Endor for being exactly what I stated, regardless of whether you believe it or not. The Rebels became allies to the Empire, the CIS were loathed. Massive, massive difference there. Grievous and his forces were completely reviled and this will have a huge effect on the Storm Commandos, the Storm Commandos will know the following: after Endor the Empire and the Rebellion continued their conflict until both sides realised the war was going nowhere and signed a treaty, they then fought together against the Yuuzhan Vong and became a unified faction. The Rebels and Iblis will not be seen as anywhere near as bad as Grievous.We should not assume the attitude of of a commando are a regular Stormtrooper are the same. Though TBH considering that half of the galaxy were members of the Confederacy, later members of the Empire, I expect its not quite the case. Storm Commandos, an elite stormtrooper regiment, are practically trained to rise above sentiment. In there line of work one cannot afford to be influenced by emotion. They need to prepared to do whatever they are ordered to do. Even if that means turning against their allies, those they respect. Which they have done without hesitation. What makes this situation any different? What is a traitor compared to Vader? Whatever hatred the Storm Commandos bear for the CIS, bearing in mind they are not clones, perhaps not even old enough to remember the war, would be cancelled out by loyalty, training, and a greater hatred for the Rebellion. And I can assure you without a doubt they hate the Rebels more, much more. What the Storm Commandos know is irrelevant, they are approaching this situation from a different perspective, a perspective that cannot relate to said alliance at all. To them the Rebels are those who murdered their Emperor and brought the Empire to ruin, they are the enemy, they are dangerous and they are definitely not their friends. Context is everything here, to the Storm Commandos that alliance would be a farce, a plot even hatched by the Rebellion to betray the Empire when they lower their guard, they won't be capable of perceiving or accepting the truth. Grievous may be loathsome, but he, unlike the rebels, is not a threat. That is the image the Commandos will perceive. If they perceive one at all, this is all very much background noise to "respect your superiors, obey orders." P.S. Though how Grievous can be perceived as worse than the Rebels I don't know, his crimes against the Empire pale in comparison. The alliance means nothing. Grievous after all, has just gone from enemy to ally too. P.P.S. Concerning Lumiya, no such high ranking officers are present, so I doubt it will have an impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Defeat Beni, Karadron! Defeat the Emperor of the Kaggath! You have the power, now use it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 One thing I notice about the Hegemony forces is that they complement each other brilliantly. The problem with this is is that you can't send single squads of units into a base if you need 4 squads to cover each other's weaknesses, the Carbonite droids weakness being covered by the 360 sensor of the tri droid etc. The GA can send in an AT-TE with a like squad and cause damage, but the PH would have to send in One of each droid, some foot soldiers and larger vehicles, all to make sure there are no massive weaknesses. Ord Mantell isn't a planet for large armies, so it seems to me that although Beni has covered his weaknesses, he's now created an army that must either over extend and send more units than should be needed, or risk a serious fatal flaw exposed in his army...Is that the case though? Ord Mantell has a lot of open terrain, plenty of room for large armies. Anyway interesting point, but I'd raise the point that 1. the Carbonite War Droids are not essential for any formation, and will primary be used to defense and special operations, and that organised waves of troops is characteristic of my force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 While both sides make interesting points for defection, I think the rules for starting loyalties would render them null, if they apply, of course. PS. Beni, did you get my PM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 While both sides make interesting points for defection, I think the rules for starting loyalties would render them null, if they apply, of course. PS. Beni, did you get my PM?Well, the argument I made wasn't really one of defection per se. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Well, the argument I made wasn't really one of defection per se. It's on the topic, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 It's on the topic, though.Well I feel the rule your referring to in that case wouldn't so much apply. Sure, they are intially loyal to Gilad, but the rule also states past loyalties can override old ones. And of course, this only applies to the Rebels, the 501st are honor bound to protect Gilad from external and internal threats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Well I feel the rule your referring to in that case wouldn't so much apply. Sure, they are intially loyal to Gilad, but the rule also states past loyalties can override old ones. And of course, this only applies to the Rebels, the 501st are honor bound to protect Gilad from external and internal threats. Well, I think we should move on from the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Ya know thinking about it....perhaps I missed something, but do factions really need a Supplier?...Like what's the point of them really, if you already have units in the faction to use? Otherwise, why not just have the Supplier and get your units from there? Idk...maybe I forgot the point of a Supplier, but I don't think it's really needed, when you have enough units already to have a fight. Although I wouldn't be against Suppliers, in the making of weapons, just not vehicles/units. Edited October 17, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Ya know thinking about it....perhaps I missed something, but do factions really need a Supplier?...Like what's the point of them really, if you already have units in the faction to use? Otherwise, why not just have the Supplier and get your units from there? Idk...maybe I forgot the point of a Supplier, but I don't think it's really needed, when you have enough units already to have a fight. Although I wouldn't be against Suppliers, in the making of weapons, just not vehicles/units.Yeah but when those units are destroyed, more would be useful... Especially considering the Hegemony has battle droids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Yeah but when those units are destroyed, more would be useful... Especially considering the Hegemony has battle droids. Eh...but then wouldn't that defeat the point of having a limited number of troops? Ya know, use em wisely and all that noise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Eh...but then wouldn't that defeat the point of having a limited number of troops? Ya know, use em wisely and all that noise?Sure, but that would tailor to only a certain type of faction. For example with droids is not about using them wisely, its about overwhelming your opponent with sheer numbers. Having suppliers just adds more realism to the Kaggath I feel, expands the battlefield and adds significance to space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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