Aries_cz Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Find 7, or find 7 good, or find 7 meaningful? I will do the same thing I asked Max - show us what build you were playing before 3.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) LordArtemis, I think that during my argumentation with Max_Killjoy, I proved that with 3.0 changes, nothing was lost, and in fact, more desirable choices were added that allow you to customize your playstyle. It's not just what was "lost", it was the unwanted additions and the lack of alternatives to those additions. For example, instead of Supercharge and all the crap that proceeds from it, why not have an alternative path with a lower but passive buff to the same things as an option, or some other passive buff? Or did Bioware really think it was that important for Arsenal and IO to have "more to do" on their spec, and by "more to do" we really mean one more light-up mole to whack so a certain sort of player can feel more "skilled" and "superior"? Edited January 4, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Or did Bioware really think it was that important for Arsenal and IO to have "more to do" on their spec, and by "more to do" we really mean one more light-up mole to whack so a certain sort of player can feel more "skilled" and "superior"? Well, Arsenal has always been a bit boring. A bit like old Balance/Madness (when they did change it, 2.8?). One more button to press. Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Well, Arsenal has always been a bit boring. A bit like old Balance/Madness (when they did change it, 2.8?). One more button to press. Nice! It was a 4 button spec and now it's a 6 button spec. (7 if you include Auto-Shot) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 It was a 4 button spec and now it's a 6 button spec. (7 if you include Auto-Shot) And just about perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 And just about perfect. Didn't lose any abilities from the rotation they just added a new cooldown and great way to proc Tracer Missile/Grav Round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 ....played no differently GENERALLY SPEAKING....I know it's your observation, but obviously it played differently for everyone...lowered DPS, changed mechanics, even if the changes were not that noticeable (which I agree with) they did not play exactly the same. The changes were negligible, perhaps, but not nonexistent, which is what the term "played no differently" tends to contend. True. I had been trying to ignore the more specific changes that were made as a part of balance and class changes and focusing instead on how the identity and mechanics of the spec were kept in tact through the crossover from skill trees to disciplines, sans those balance changes. Based on math for optimal build performance in certain types of play....absolutely. Based on Bioware's design intent, I agree. Both good contentions if put forth that way. Guides and studies, again, that depends on content that you play. It can be argued that most players do not participate in the kinds of play where those types of things make a difference. And that is the point here. Good point. To an extent though I think that group or endgame PVErs needn't be differentiated from solo PVErs. This is because I would argue that, based on my experience and from what BioWare has stated, even most of those casuals ended up with specs that were close if not the same as the specs that end game and group players used. The amount of those who did or didn't is of course speculative on both our ends and would require specific stats from BioWare to truly answer. My statement is likely more factual than yours....but that does not mean it is absolutely correct. One can argue, with almost certainty, that the change was made to benefit a small portion of players (group content and PVP) and Bioware....that much is self evident. One can argue that casuals benefited from some sort of issue that would have existed if they had left the tree system in place, or if they adopted any other system other than what was implemented, but that is speculative IMO. Speculative, yes. We only know what they ended up doing, not what the alternative would have been. However, not entirely without merit. We know how BioWare handled the increased cap in 2.0 in regards to the old system, and if they did that again I feel that we'd be worse off for it. And it would only get worse with each cap increase. The change to OS and FF was made because Bioware did not feel they felt right for the class. That much they made clear themselves, and that is only one of a few changes made specifically for that purpose. And those changes, as few as they are, are ones I have issue with. I won't weigh in my thoughts here, for reasons including that I don't really play my operative much anyway, but I certainly see where you're coming from on changes like that. They are pretty controversial changes that BioWare hasn't sold well. I feel that this is a topic saved for another thread, which I'm fairly sure I've seen you comment in already. I don't think that it needs to muddy the discussion on the topic of disciplines. Again, fair enough, but I argue that it is important to sell this change to casuals, as they are the majority playerbase. The way to do so is to present how it will benefit those kind of players. Changes that benefit group play and PVP do not likely appeal to casual players...of course generally speaking. There has to be another benefit, and I believe the idea that it will be easier for Bioware to balance moving forward is a big one...in fact, to be clear, here are the benefits to casuals in my eyes... 1) Less frequent changes to abilities in the future 2) Meaningful abilities earlier in the leveling process 3) Much easier to choose builds since there is less to mess with (utilities) Good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 It's not just what was "lost", it was the unwanted additions and the lack of alternatives to those additions. For example, instead of Supercharge and all the crap that proceeds from it, why not have an alternative path with a lower but passive buff to the same things as an option, or some other passive buff? Or did Bioware really think it was that important for Arsenal and IO to have "more to do" on their spec, and by "more to do" we really mean one more light-up mole to whack so a certain sort of player can feel more "skilled" and "superior"? We get it, you want Arsenal to go back to being a one button wonder. That ship sailed a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) We get it, you want Arsenal to go back to being a one button wonder. That ship sailed a long time ago. It was never a "one button wonder" unless you're one of those idiots who only counts the basic attacks. Before 3.0, there were already a couple dozen powers/skills routinely used on Arsenal unless you were a complete nitwit. Right now, today, without including Supercharge Gas, a quick count gives 27 routinely-used active powers/skills. Adding one more button to whack when it lights up doesn't make a rotation more "skilful" or "challenging" unless you're dealing with a serious intellectual challenge. Are you really so delusional that you believe that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a facerolling simpleton, or is that just all you have to fall back on? 27 buttons = "simplistic", 28 buttons = "complicated and involved"? Really? Edited January 4, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 It was never a "one button wonder" Adding one more button to whack when it lights up doesn't make a rotation more "skilful" or "challenging" unless you're a moron who never left the basic rotation of attacks. Are you really so delusional that you believe that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a facerolling simpleton, or is that just all you have to fall back on? Well if six buttons is unnecessary then why have five? That sounds unnecessary too. If five is unnecessary now, then what makes four necessary? I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is a facerolling simpleton, only you, practically by your own admission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Wow, a PvP video so old that the animation on Tracer Missile is still the backpack missile... E: Just because someone is doing it, or it could be done, doesn't make it the only way to play the class even then. Also, showing PvP video and saying "class was one-button-wonder!" actually demonstrates the attitude of "my niche of the game is all that matters", by asserting that someone running around in PvP using one attack somehow covers every aspect of the game... I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is a facerolling simpleton, only you, practically by your own admission. Whatever lie helps you feel good about yourself, I suppose. (Predict MNK will now resort to "fixed that for you" / "rubber and glue" post in response.) Edited January 4, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Wow, a PvP video so old that the animation on Tracer Missile is still the backpack missile... Well you did say... It was never a "one button wonder" And the video he linked proves that wrong so yea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baraxis Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Well you did say... And the video he linked proves that wrong so yea... And now people like you two can be ignored as pedantic....yay. These forums are rapidly narrowing down to less then 10 people to even read...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterraaze Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I have to say, I laughed a lot much more than I should have. I remember those days, that animation was just awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visue Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I shared your concerns at the beginning, but the new system works great with the field respec legacy ability. I just memorize where each of my abilities are on my action bar for each of my three specs and I can play whichever I like, whenever I like. I am a fan. Plus, there is still plenty of choice as far as the points go. I find myself experimenting with new combinations all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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