Developer Update: Introduction to Disciplines

[Max_Killjoy]

To be blunt screw any MMORPG. SO screw this game and go play a single player game. You're currently saying this game shouldn,t even be what it is at is deepest core. So honestly. Right now. Your opinion has barely as much importance has any other troll. If you don't like trinity based, balanced, multiplayer game. Why are you playing one?

 

The "role" in RPG has nothing to do with "chose a role -- healer, tank, or DPS".

 

Balance could be achieved without hamstringing player agency/choice.

 

There are plenty of reasons to play SWTOR that have nothing to do with some sort of requirement to accept the trinity and engage in MP content daily.

 

Those players who are not here to be cog in a random 8/16-man raid should not have to build their characters around the notion that they'll be doing so. Some of us get sick of being told that we suck because we don't make the entire game and everything we do in it about conquering the latest puzzle-boss.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Ryuku-sama]

The "role" in RPG has nothing to do with "chose a role -- healer, tank, or DPS".

 

Balance could be achieved without hamstringing player agency/choice.

 

There are plenty of reasons to play SWTOR that have nothing to do with some sort of requirement to accept the trinity and engage in MP content daily.

 

Those players who are not here to be cog in a random 8/16-man raid should not have to build their characters around the notion that they'll be doing so.

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic, often abbreviated as SWTOR, is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) based in the Star Wars universe.

 

MMORPGs are distinguished from single-player or small multi-player online RPGs by the number of players able to interact together, and by the game's persistent world (usually hosted by the game's publisher), which continues to exist and evolve while the player is offline and away from the game.

 

And here goes out of the window your idea of no interaction between players. MMO are built around players interacting together, playing together. Even if you aren't going to take part in this major part of the game. It still is a major part of it... They can't catter to the solo player in a game made first and foremost for multiplayer gameplay.

[Max_Killjoy]

And here goes out of the window your idea of no interaction between players. MMO are built around players interacting together, playing together. Even if you aren't going to take part in this major part of the game. It still is a major part of it... They can't catter to the solo player in a game made first and foremost for multiplayer gameplay.

 

Even if one accepts that particular definition (Wikipedia... ) there are tons of ways to "interact" that don't require fastidious adherence to the requirements of a particular subsection of the game.

 

As I said elsewhere, some of us come to this game from a place where "RPG" wasn't a reference to taking on a pre-assigned combat role.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[HKtheindomitable]

According to whom?

 

You have a very restrictive view of things. Why do you care about the restrictions of others? Overcome your programming, machine. You may enjoy a very narrow focus, and you should be allowed to enjoy it. If it grinds your gears thinking about what other people might be doing, you are not playing the game, you are thinking too much about other people.

 

Exception: Super-effective

 

Here, I could not agree with you more, but the term "hybrid" never meant (in any game I frequented) super effective. A "pure" role should eclipse a hybrid's function in that regard. PvP effectiveness should be monitored, but hybrids are fun. Experimenting is fun. Unkillable death machines are not fun, unless you are on the safe side of an HK, but that doesn't mean hybrids can't have a role to play as well, if they are given vulnerabilities that offset some of the benefits.

 

Answer: In response to your initial query, according to the Developers. If you watched the live stream, they said that Hybrids are not supposed to exist.

 

Defensive Statement: To be fair, everything I posted was in a general sense. Had I taken the time to list all the things each class could do by not being Hybrid, I would have made a huge wall of text.

 

Answer: In response to your second query, my concern is that I've seen almost all of those that play Hybrid be the ones that refuse to work as a team and cause the team to lose. And it's not cool when you get melted by an unkillable death machine that should have be defeated fairly quickly.

 

Defensive Statement: I'm not saying a DPS shouldn't survive or a Healer shouldn't survive better. I'm simply saying that a DPS should not be a tank that can melt whomever they come across. A healer should be able to survive whatever you dish out to them 1v1 with ease, 2v1 as a challenge (depending on circumstances) and 3v1 with difficulty, not one healer class have a much easier time surviving than the other healer classes.

 

Clarification: By "super-effective" I mean being more effective than one or two of the skill trees of the Advanced Class.

 

Admission: I'm not going to disagree that Hybrids are fun. I enjoyed as a Vanguard playing the Tactics/Assault hybrid. That was a lot of fun. But I didn't like the fact that other abilities that could be very effective were not being used because they weren't what they should be (mostly utility abilities).

[HKtheindomitable]

Even if one accepts that particular definition (Wikipedia... ) there are tons of ways to "interact" that don't require fastidious adherence to the requirements of a particular subsection of the game.

 

As I said elsewhere, some of us come to this game from a place where "RPG" wasn't a reference to taking on a pre-assigned combat role.

 

Observation: Then you missed the part where it says "MMORPG". It's not just an RPG.

 

Statement: So yes, in this instance, the "Role" is Tank/Heal/DPS (MMO part). However you also play the "Role" of your character's class and storyline, which is in no way related to your Advanced Class (RPG part). Because it is an MMO, your Advanced Class is going to have the MMO set-up. Like it or not.

 

Suggestion: If you want to do just RPG, you will have to go play KotOR or ME or such RPG games.

 

Addendum: I'm going to say this again, this whole whining thing about the loss of hybrids and the game not being fun anymore, you're basing it off of what you THINK it will be like. You have NO idea what it will be like. Reserve your assumptions until AFTER you try it out. I am. I'll still play because I love Star Wars and I love Star Wars lore (if you couldn't tell). It's like saying you hate a certain food, when you have no idea what it tastes like (not that I know anything about that, seeing as I'm a droid).

Edited October 23, 2014 by HKtheindomitable

[Max_Killjoy]

Observation: Then you missed the part where it says "MMORPG". It's not just an RPG.

 

Statement: So yes, in this instance, the "Role" is Tank/Heal/DPS (MMO part). However you also play the "Role" of your character's class and storyline, which is in no way related to your Advanced Class (RPG part). Because it is an MMO, your Advanced Class is going to have the MMO set-up. Like it or not.

 

Suggestion: If you want to do just RPG, you will have to go play KotOR or ME or such RPG games.

 

Addendum: I'm going to say this again, this whole whining thing about the loss of hybrids and the game not being fun anymore, you're basing it off of what you THINK it will be like. You have NO idea what it will be like. Reserve your assumptions until AFTER you try it out. I am. I'll still play because I love Star Wars and I love Star Wars lore (if you couldn't tell). It's like saying you hate a certain food, when you have no idea what it tastes like (not that I know anything about that, seeing as I'm a droid).

 

Anecdote: for years, a friend of mine insisted that I just had to try caviar. I always said "No thank you, it has to taste like salty fish eggs, not my thing." He'd always respond with glowing praise for all the subtle and marvelous qualities of caviar, and that old platitude, "You never know until you try it!"

 

Finally, after a decade of being pushed, I tried it.

 

Caviar tastes like salty fish eggs.

 

 

We've seen what the Sorcerer disciplines will be like. We know what can and cannot be done under the new system for that class. We know that they'll be much like the current pure-build specs. The current pure-build specs for Sorcerer aren't my thing. "You never know until you've tried it."

 

Caviar tastes like salty fish eggs.

 

 

Here's the difference between the sides here: I want balance for the endgamers and PvPers so they can enjoy the game, and flexible character builds for people like me so they can enjoy the game. The other side wants balance, and to hell with flexible character builds if that's what it takes to get it.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[HKtheindomitable]

Anecdote: for years, a friend of mine insisted that I just had to try caviar. I always said "No thank you, it has to taste like salty fish eggs, not my thing." He'd always respond with glowing praise for all the subtle and marvelous qualities of caviar, and that old platitude, "You never know until you try it!"

 

Finally, after a decade of being pushed, I tried it.

 

Caviar tastes like salty fish eggs.

 

 

We've seen what the Sorcerer disciplines will be like. We know what can and cannot be done under the new system for that class. We know that they'll be much like the current pure-build specs. The current pure-build specs for Sorcerer aren't my thing. "You never know until you've tried it."

 

Caviar tastes like salty fish eggs.

 

 

Here's the difference between the sides here: I want balance for the endgamers and PvPers so they can enjoy the game, and flexible character builds for people like me so they can enjoy the game. The other side wants balance, and to hell with flexible character builds if that's what it takes to get it.

 

Statement: The flexibility is not real. There is no flexibility because you're not gaining enough of anything to be flexible. The only ones that are "flexible" are the ones that aren't properly balanced. That is what this new system is going to fix. The Imbalance. Your Utility abilities are going to be your flexibility.

 

Observation: And your perceived "what it will taste like" is just that: perceived. Just because it seems like it should "taste like salty fish eggs" doesn't mean it will.

 

Recitation: Again, it must be tried before assuming it's "taste".

 

Observation: This thread has been going in circles for several pages. You have the "hate it before trying it and seeing anything more about it" users posting their reasons for hating it, and then you have the "try it then judge it" users telling them to "wait and see".

 

Recitation: Wait and see. Seriously. They're not going to leave it the way it currently is in the game. They're changing it. Deal with it.

 

Recitation: Their reason is to make balancing the game so much easier. They've enjoyed seeing how we could break the system they intended us to use. Then they would work to fix it. It has been a nightmare for them.

 

Positive Reinforcement: Bear in mind, this will also mean no more "Flavor of the month" classes anymore. No more "all Imps are playing Sorcerer", "all Pubs are playing Scoundrel", "all Imps are playing Operative", etc. And then you get face-rolled by teams composed of six Sorcerers and two other classes.

 

Request: I ask that everyone just take the "wait and see" approach to this.

 

Conclusion: I am finished with this thread. I won't see any responses or quotes so don't bother. It is going nowhere but in a circle as I stated. Everyone including myself is simply repeating the exact same things that can be found on the first five to ten pages of this thread. The horse has bee beaten. It's been dead a while. It's been beaten so much for so long it's now turned into Jerky. Stop beating the horse.

[Max_Killjoy]

Statement: The flexibility is not real.

 

And that's where you jump the shark.

 

On this subject, "Choices I wouldn't make aren't valid or meaningful choices." has been and will continue to be the rallying cry of everyone who wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater and is eager to see any conflicting priority crushed if that's what it takes to get their way.

 

Oh well.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[spacefiddle]

Answer: In response to your initial query, according to the Developers. If you watched the live stream, they said that Hybrids are not supposed to exist.

Well whoops. Ironic, since they created some of the best and most fun hybrid possibilities of any game I've ever played, and over the last 12 years or so, I've played a lot.

 

Still, if the game is tuned around not-hybrids, then it's better to incorporate some of what hybrids provided into the role trees, rather than have to examine every aspect of the game for this unexpected plot twist. I chalk it up to their dev-noobness 4 years ago; I seem to recall them also being very surprised at how popular their PvP was.

 

As for the rest of your post: yeah, can't argue with any of it, and agree with most of it.

[Ryuku-sama]

Well whoops. Ironic, since they created some of the best and most fun hybrid possibilities of any game I've ever played, and over the last 12 years or so, I've played a lot.

 

Still, if the game is tuned around not-hybrids, then it's better to incorporate some of what hybrids provided into the role trees, rather than have to examine every aspect of the game for this unexpected plot twist. I chalk it up to their dev-noobness 4 years ago; I seem to recall them also being very surprised at how popular their PvP was.

 

As for the rest of your post: yeah, can't argue with any of it, and agree with most of it.

 

It is happening.. From certain 'irregular' informations I have.. What we have seen about sorc is happening in every class. Every classes seems to be getting good AoE DPS and good single target DPS which is rather nice. And more specificly.. Looking at the best sorc hybrid (0/28/16 + 2) I've played, they incorporated most of what I liked in the new Lightning. Meaning mobility and instant proc for key abilities. I can't tell more since it is frowned upon by the devs (No I ain't breaking any NDA)

[GrandLordMenace]

These changes are great for a few reasons:

 

A: More user friendly. Hybrids are fun for the solo player, sure, I understand that, not everyone is an endgame raider, but I think the learning curve for the game itself as well as simplifying the route for new players to get to endgame. It also helps players that are, for lack of a better word, "noobs" to better focus on learning their class.

 

B: Talents have better spacing. Remember that rush you got when every time you got this new proc or ability that was really freaking cool once leveling started speeding up? Well that happens all throughout the game now! Gives more incentives for new players to level.

 

C: THE MOST IMPORTANT: A large amount of time in the past year has been spent adjusting skill trees, including hybrids. Hybrids themselves are painful to fix because you have to worry about consequences to other trees. It's kinda like trying to burn down a house while avoiding burning down the neighbor's. Your going to have to come up with crazy solutions to figure out how to do it. What they've done effectively here, is putting all the houses on their own island. They won't have to worry about any of these problems.

 

I liked hybrids, I liked PVPing with my 23/23/0 Guardian hybrid because it was a unique spec that no one ran because it was more complicated to play. But at the same time, all that customization, at least in PVP, was an illusion. That hybrid was one of the few viable ones, most of the others were built for solo playing etc. With disciplines, all that dev time spent "fixing" hybrids could be spent on developing content that we enjoy, be it endgame, pvp, solo content, etc. They could spend more time fixing bugs, or working on new features.

 

Utilities, in turn, give a sense of adaptability. From what I've seen and what we can guess of from examining our trees, utilities will be like a "utility belt." You have a set amount of skills, these are rock solid, BUT your choice is expanded into, "Hey do I want to do less damage to them but give my ally a healing bubble?" or, "Should I increase my speed, or the speed of the allies around me?" or "Is that extra armor worth it, or should I get this talent that increases damage from my AOE ability?" These are the types of choices that you get in disciplines, and for the sake of balance and the devs, I'll take them gladly.

Edited October 23, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[darrenkidd]

I'm to going to knock it before i try it, but next time maybe try something noone will complain about..like more races/planets id love to have a jawa force user hinted at in the tat missions

 

more on my previous statement..many worlds aren't aligned with either pub/imp..how about being able to do missions based off your standing with dark/light side..maybe my bh was dark side but later (due to diplomacy crew skill) I changed to light side be nice to see some of the places I couldn't unless I had a toon for that planet

[Gleneagle]

A game of chess tends to devolve when one of the players decides their bishops get to also move like their queen.

 

Hybrids try to make bishops into queens.

 

The game was designed to have the SWTOR equivalents of pawns, bishops, rooks, knights and queens.

[Max_Killjoy]

A game of chess tends to devolve when one of the players decides their bishops get to also move like their queen.

 

Hybrids try to make bishops into queens.

 

The game was designed to have the SWTOR equivalents of pawns, bishops, rooks, knights and queens.

 

SWTOR is a lot more than chess, and what we're looking at here is the people who showed up at the park to watch the birds or play backgammon all being told "YOUR PIECES MUST MOVE LIKE BISHOPS OR YOU SUCK!"

[Gleneagle]

SWTOR is a lot more than chess, and what we're looking at here is the people who showed up at the park to watch the birds or play backgammon all being told "YOUR PIECES MUST MOVE LIKE BISHOPS OR YOU SUCK!"

So you are of the opinion that SWTOR is real life, where there are only the rules we agree to, and not a game that has rules?

[Max_Killjoy]

So you are of the opinion that SWTOR is real life, where there are only the rules we agree to, and not a game that has rules?

 

I'm of the opinion that not everyone is here to "play chess", and building all the rules around "chess" isn't going to do the game or the majority of its players any good.

[xAZUREx]

SWTOR is a lot more than chess, and what we're looking at here is the people who showed up at the park to watch the birds or play backgammon all being told "YOUR PIECES MUST MOVE LIKE BISHOPS OR YOU SUCK!"

 

far from it, if we're using chess as a metaphor the game should be like:

Knight - Knight/Warrior

Bishop - consular/inquisitor

Rook - Smuggler/Agent

Pawn - Trooper/Bounty

 

Every class has their specific role that only they are suited to

 

but at the moment it's like

Queen - Knight/Warrior

King - consular/inquisitor

Queen - Smuggler/Agent

King - Trooper/Bounty

 

Queen is this OP class that can do anything while the King is very limited compared to the Queen

[idnewton]

A game of chess tends to devolve when one of the players decides their bishops get to also move like their queen.

 

Hybrids try to make bishops into queens.

 

The game was designed to have the SWTOR equivalents of pawns, bishops, rooks, knights and queens.

 

I hope you're not implying that hybrids haven't been better than pure specs in some cases. Dotsmash?

[Gleneagle]

I'm of the opinion that not everyone is here to "play chess", and building all the rules around "chess" isn't going to do the game or the majority of its players any good.

The only game without rules I have ever played was Spartan madball. And that one still had two rules:

1. Get the ball
   
2. Get the guy with the ball
   

[Max_Killjoy]

The only game without rules I have ever played was Spartan madball. And that one still had two rules:

1. Get the ball
   
2. Get the guy with the ball
   

 

NO ONE is suggesting a game without rules.

 

The problem is that minority of the playerbase wants the rules written completely to the needs of the parts of the game that they're most focused on. Again, the chess players insisting that the backgammon players and bridge players and the birdwatchers all show up ready to play chess.

[Gleneagle]

NO ONE is suggesting a game without rules.

 

The problem is that minority of the playerbase wants the rules written completely to the needs of the parts of the game that they're most focused on. Again, the chess players insisting that the backgammon players and bridge players and the birdwatchers all show up ready to play chess.

Vocal minority, yes. But that is why I feel we need to leave it in the hands of the developers since only they will be reliably interested in the quality of the whole game. Kinda like... no, I will resist the temptation to divert the conversation. Edited October 23, 2014 by Gleneagle

[Max_Killjoy]

Vocal minority, yes. But that is why I feel we need to leave it in the hands of the developers since only they will be reliably interested in the quality of the whole game. Kinda like... no, I will resist the temptation to divert the conversation.

 

To be clear, what I would really like have seen is a ruleset that has room for the chess players AND all those other people at the park, too. My goal would not be to exclude, exempt, or deny any of them if at all possible.

[Confucious]

I'd like to Thank Bioware, EA and Lucas Arts for making the best MMO in history, so Thank You all! I'm really trying to stay optimistic about the "Discipline" system but I cant shake the feeling that its a dumb down wow move... If the "Discipline" system turns out to be a good thing then "excellent" but if its a dumb down then you will lose millions of subs, same as WoW! Some here say they like the way WoW dumb'ed down the game but I'd bet a lot that if you ask Blizzard and got an honest answer, they would say it was the dumbest thing they ever did and wish they hadn't...

 

For the people who are hoping its a WoW type dumb down, if it is, well good for you...! You'll all be the same with plenty of the "Sims type" idea's to go with it! You will have different Character looks (hence the cartel market money pit) but other then that will be the same with no choice to be different, millions of subs will be gone along with any CC purchases they would've made. Disney will then step in and shut it down! So, people hoping it's a dumb down be care'full what you wish for...

 

Speaking of the Cartel Market, you've done an excellent job of gutting the in-game economy with the Strongholds and "Conquest Events" making the SH's very expensive to open and old mats sky rocket in price etc... You've done this so when 3.0 comes out people will have to buy Cartel Coins to get anything they really want off the bat... Also noticing you've upped the price on Hypercrate's in preparation for the buying of CC's and maximizing your real money profits (CC's). Ye, Sub's get free 5 to 600 a month but in reality its not much with the price of things in the market but that's known! Everyone I talk to that play says the exact thing i'm saying, if the games dumb'd down like wow then my sub stops and I find another game.... There's a few that have said they will stay but they seam to need it dumb'd down anyway to be honest or just play for the cosmetics aspect and could care less, no offense meant to any one by that statement!

 

P.S. I now know why Lucas sold out (smart man he is)! Waiting for the Mickey Mouse Hologram over the planets and the big "E for Everyone' Rating to hit as well...lol.

 

P.S.S. Here's to hoping the "Disciplines" are a good thing!

[-sniper-]

I want to ask couple of q's.

 

1. proberbly a dumb question.. but it doesnt state it very clearly.. so im assuming.. if you are ops.. then you stay ops.?

 

2. it states that the new system allows free progression of innate abilitues by auto qualifying.. then also with skill adds.. will stats/hp etc also increase progressively too.. and so in pvp wzs will the auto stat modifyer still buff up lower levels? although i think pvp needs a split.. 10 - 40 .. 40 - 59 .. 60. not as it is currently .. 10 too 54.. a level 18 with same stats as a lvl 45.. is wasted becase they have barely any abilities.. seems daft.. but i know its a player avaliability numbers game.

 

3. what happens to legecy abilities.. esp legecy attack abilities.. will these be affected? ie. ops with air strike and legecy airstrike.. airstrike is removed from ops.. so will legecy air strike be removed as well or stay seporate or replaced?

 

4. id like to see.. with this change in mind.. pvp and pve missions wich have profession specific content...

a group creates its own elite group hoping they chose right ones.. scoring points for each profession task in the mission.. ie.. sniper to take out a distant commander.. ops to steal an object or access security points.. mando to blast doors.. jedi to influence minds of npcs to gain access etc.

during the mission the points *** each completed task add up to gain rewards and each completed task allows access to a higher or more interesting end foe and thus rarer rewards.

 

its just an idea... but id love to feel like my ops guy and my sniper spent his life training to use his personal skills to be used very directly in the game rather that just kill.

[PhantomBelcher]

Well, goodbye to my hybrid lightning/madness spec sorcerer with chain lightning and infinitely-spammable force lightning.

 

Bioware, why do you dislike hybrid builds that work?