Friday Community Stream with Courtney and Hillary (10/3)

[Liquor]

Figures, I leave the country and now they come to SL

 

hope they jump into some WZ and see the SL hacking guilds.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Liquor

[Lotharofxev]

They're gonna reveal something in less than two weeks

 

Really? An "announcement" in two weeks? Meanwhile Wow is releasing multiple videos for their expansion. Instead, we get the military equivalent of holding a formation to say when the next formation will be.

 

(For civilians - a meeting to say when the next meeting will be)

[DanNV]

But they delayed the announcement, not the expansion itself?

 

Correct. And the announcement was never promised for last week. Eric just said he was hoping it would be last week.

 

As to the comments made in the chat, there are several accounts that should be banned form the chat and banned from the game if the two can be tied together. The comments made were so totally out of line, there is no excuse, period.

[DanNV]

It is also the way people use to get attention when they have NO OTHER WAY TO DO IT.

 

Sorry that simple point is so easily lost on you. It is sorta like when people go out and protest, it is simply the only option to gain attention to a cause.

 

Management isn't going to listen to nice polite quiet comments, it simply doesn't work that they, they are too tone deaf.

 

I hate to tell you this, but the rude, nasty, sexist comments made aren't going to help your case any. In fact all they do is hurt your case. People stop listening to people who behave that way. If you want to be treated like, and listened to like a child, act like one. If you want to be treated like and adult and have your opinions listened to like an adult, act like one. It really is that simple.

[DanNV]

I didn't see anything sexual in nature, I clearly missed that. No, that isn't called for clearly...

 

There was, and a lot of it.

 

In any large protest, you're going to have a few bad/violent apples, ignore them and focus on the fact that it was overun by unhappy customers.

 

There isn't anything to protest over. It's a GAME. They said they hoped to release info last week. They then said nope, it'll probably be a couple more weeks. Does that effect your life? Does it effect you job or ability to feed your family? Does it have any affect on anything outside the game? Nope, sure doesn't. There are a lot of people who need to grow up. All they've done is make themselves look like children.

 

And as far as I can tell, there is no "large protest". There are a few people who are acting like children. They need to grow up or move on.

 

I'm sorry, but the behavior I saw in the chat for the stream isn't behavior that would be tolerated in person. It shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. People who behaved like that in person would be tossed out and told not to come back. The same should happen online. Do that enough and the children might learn some manners.

[Heat-Wave]

I hate to tell you this, but the rude, nasty, sexist comments made aren't going to help your case any. In fact all they do is hurt your case. People stop listening to people who behave that way. If you want to be treated like, and listened to like a child, act like one. If you want to be treated like and adult and have your opinions listened to like an adult, act like one. It really is that simple.

 

Go ahead and focus on that...

 

Go on, I'll sit and wait... Let me know if that makes it all better and allows you to ignore the problem at hand...

 

It sounds like, from various comments here, that some people got out of hand with the comments. Fair enough. But if you then just dismiss the unhappy customers because of it, then you're as tone deaf as the management of Bioware.

[Heat-Wave]

There isn't anything to protest over.

 

That is your opinion, clearly many people disagree with you. Your saying it doesn't make it a fact.

 

They said they hoped to release info last week. They then said nope, it'll probably be a couple more weeks. Does that effect your life?

 

It was the straw that broke the camel's back, or have you never heard that one before.

 

It wasn't just one thing, it wasn't this or that... It was a long series of missteps and mistakes on the part of Bioware that has brought us to this point...

 

There are a lot of people who need to grow up. All they've done is make themselves look like children.

 

You and a few others keep saying that. What you're *really* saying is, "this is how I feel and if you disagree then you must be a child and need to change to fit my viewpoint".

 

Yea, good luck with that.

 

The point that you continue to miss that is trying to sweep it all under the rug doesn't address the cause. If Bioware had not made so many mistakes over and over, if they had not missed this last date yet again, then the stream would have gone on like so many before it.

 

I'm sorry, but the behavior I saw in the chat for the stream isn't behavior that would be tolerated in person. It shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. People who behaved like that in person would be tossed out and told not to come back. The same should happen online. Do that enough and the children might learn some manners.

 

You keep calling them children... That is your error, you think that they just need to give up and go away, or grow up, or think like you do.

 

You waving your hands isn't going to make that happen.

 

You simply don't want to deal with reality. Please stop living in fantasy, this isn't make believe, this is the real world and real people are pissed off. Telling them that they shouldn't be is counter-productive and the sign of someone who doesn't understand the situation.

 

If they hold a stream next week, this is just going to happen again. So what is the solution? I suppose they could cancel the streams. But that doesn't fix the problem, it will just push it somewhere else.

[DanNV]

Gosh, I thought the streams were for fun?

 

The community stream is supposed to be for fun, watch someone (or now a couple of people) from BW play the game, chat and let people ask some questions. The community stream isn't going to be a place where you get dev questions answered, it's not a dev stream. Some people haven't paid enough attention to figure that part out, unfortunately.

 

If people want to ask dev questions, they need to wait for another dev stream. The community team can't answer dev questions and can't give out any info they haven't been told to give out. Harassing them is uncalled for. They took it way better than I would have. Instead of deleting sexist comments I'd have been banning accounts.

[eGraced]

You simply don't want to deal with reality. Please stop living in fantasy, this isn't make believe, this is the real world and real people are pissed off.

 

You do know you're talking about an MMO, right?

[DanNV]

(snip)

You simply don't want to deal with reality. Please stop living in fantasy, this isn't make believe, this is the real world and real people are pissed off. Telling them that they shouldn't be is counter-productive and the sign of someone who doesn't understand the situation.

 

I understand the situation just fine. I didn't say people shouldn't be mad (although being mad over an announcement that we were told might come and didn't seems sort of silly), I said people need to act like adults. There is a huge difference there. No one is entitled to any information about anything BW has planned. It's in BWs best interest to get the information out because it increases interest in the game which increases revenue. So, the information will come out, but not until marketing, legal and everyone else with an interest in it at BW has signed off on it. That's how the real world works.

 

If they hold a stream next week, this is just going to happen again. So what is the solution? I suppose they could cancel the streams. But that doesn't fix the problem, it will just push it somewhere else.

 

Personally, I'd just start banning accounts from the chat, but I don't work for BW, so I can't say what they'll do. However, if the sexual harassment keeps up, I would hope BW cancels the streams and makes it known why and who was doing it.

[DanNV]

You do know you're talking about an MMO, right?

 

Unfortunately, for some people it seems to be all the life they've found. It's much easier to be abusive sitting behind a computer screen than it is to go out into the big, wide world and try to function like an adult.

[eGraced]

Unfortunately, for some people it seems to be all the life they've found. It's much easier to be abusive sitting behind a computer screen than it is to go out into the big, wide world and try to function like an adult.

 

I agree. To me it's more than a little frightening when people are talking "civil disobedience" and "protests" like we are talking about going to war, or rationing food, or something equally severe. These are the same people mentioning that harassing and threatening two community outreach employees is somehow justified.

 

It is a game. Absolutely nothing that happens in, around, or as a consequence of a video game deserves this kind of reaction. If you believe otherwise, maybe you need to step back and take a break.

[Heat-Wave]

If people want to ask dev questions, they need to wait for another dev stream. The community team can't answer dev questions and can't give out any info they haven't been told to give out.

 

Such a simple concept, yet it flies right over your head...

 

People don't need to wait, they don't need to listen to you, and they can express their annoyance anywhere they would like.

 

In this case, they did so in the place that was open to them. What the community team should do is go back to their boss and say, "Boss, we have a problem, we had a whole bunch of pissed off customers and it got out of hand".

 

At that point it becomes their boss's problem.

[Heat-Wave]

You do know you're talking about an MMO, right?

 

No, I am not...

 

I am talking about a business selling a product to customers and those customers are unhappy with the product.

 

This doesn't get a pass because it is a MMO or a game... At the end of the day, Bioware is a division of EA, a publicly traded for-profit corporation that sells products and services to customers.

 

If the customers are unhappy, there are a number of ways they can express it. This was one of those ways. You might or might not agree with their choice, but simply waving your hands and saying, "oh, it is a MMO, they need to get over it, grow up, and go away", accomplishes nothing.

 

That isn't going to happen because the people protesting don't really care what YOU think about it, since you have no more say over what Bioware does than they do.

[Heat-Wave]

I agree. To me it's more than a little frightening when people are talking "civil disobedience" and "protests" like we are talking about going to war, or rationing food, or something equally severe. These are the same people mentioning that harassing and threatening two community outreach employees is somehow justified.

 

It is a game. Absolutely nothing that happens in, around, or as a consequence of a video game deserves this kind of reaction. If you believe otherwise, maybe you need to step back and take a break.

 

First world problems indeed... but many of us have been playing for two years, we have a lot of time and energy invested in our accounts. Many of us have spent thousands of dollars between subscription fees and CM purchases.

 

That moves it beyond "just a game" and makes it about something important... Money...

 

If I wasn't paying anything at all to play, then yea, I'd have far less right to complain. Since there is real money involved, as a customer, I have every right to complain.

[eGraced]

Such a simple concept, yet it flies right over your head...

 

People don't need to wait, they don't need to listen to you, and they can express their annoyance anywhere they would like.

 

In this case, they did so in the place that was open to them. What the community team should do is go back to their boss and say, "Boss, we have a problem, we had a whole bunch of pissed off customers and it got out of hand".

 

At that point it becomes their boss's problem.

 

Except what's most likely to happen is "hey, there were a bunch of jerks who harassed two women doing something fun to try to increase community engagement. What a PR nightmare considering how heavily harassing women on line is being covered in news outlets right now. Obviously this was a bad idea, so we should stop."

 

And this is why we can't have nice things.

[Heat-Wave]

Unfortunately, for some people it seems to be all the life they've found. It's much easier to be abusive sitting behind a computer screen than it is to go out into the big, wide world and try to function like an adult.

 

Insulting people is not going to help, but I guess that is all you have to work with, so go right ahead and keep doing it.

 

You aren't accomplishing anything, but if it makes you feel better, go for it...

[eGraced]

First world problems indeed... but many of us have been playing for two years, we have a lot of time and energy invested in our accounts. Many of us have spent thousands of dollars between subscription fees and CM purchases.

 

That moves it beyond "just a game" and makes it about something important... Money...

 

If I wasn't paying anything at all to play, then yea, I'd have far less right to complain. Since there is real money involved, as a customer, I have every right to complain.

 

So postponing an announcement about an expansion is somehow diminishing the value of what you purchased? I have had an active subscription since launch as well, and have my fancy yellow-black preorder crystal as well. I think I get what I pay my $15 a month for. If that ever changed, I would stop paying it. What I would not do is harass 2 women trying to do their job, and then try to justify it as being acceptable adult behavior.

[Heat-Wave]

Except what's most likely to happen is "hey, there were a bunch of jerks who harassed two women doing something fun to try to increase community engagement. What a PR nightmare considering how heavily harassing women on line is being covered in news outlets right now. Obviously this was a bad idea, so we should stop."

 

And this is why we can't have nice things.

 

They might do that, if they are foolish and completely miss the point.

 

I said it before, they might well cancel the streams, but then the complaints and protests will only go somewhere else.

 

Another possible option is to only have Eric do the streams, that removes at least the female part of it. My point to Eric would be the same as it would be to Courtney, "the situation has reached its limit and this has become the only issue worth talking about". It will not stop until Bioware deals with the actual problem.

 

------------

 

BTW, I actually agree with your fellow poster, anyone making sexual comments towards either of the girls should be banned, there is saying something negative about Bioware, then there is saying something personal about the girls, which obviously is uncalled for. But I said that already, multiple times.

[Heat-Wave]

So postponing an announcement about an expansion is somehow diminishing the value of what you purchased? I have had an active subscription since launch as well, and have my fancy yellow-black preorder crystal as well. I think I get what I pay my $15 a month for. If that ever changed, I would stop paying it. What I would not do is harass 2 women trying to do their job, and then try to justify it as being acceptable adult behavior.

 

So in your mind it is a simple binary decision, either pay the money and shut up and accept anything, or not pay the money and go away.

 

That's it, nothing else?

 

Fair enough, that is your choice. Clearly others see another option, which is to try and get the company that makes this game to do something different. In this case, many of them reached out to the only open source of contact, the community team, to express their displeasure.

 

As far as harassment goes, that has been covered. However, there does have to be some disruption to the stream in order to have an effect. Taking the topic off what is going on and taking it towards 3.0 and the issues with the game, and doing it to the point where it ruins the point of the stream, forces attention to the problem.

 

I live in Texas, I am about 2 hours away from Bioware Austin, I could hop in my car and drive there and complain in person, except they wouldn't give me the time of day. So I don't. So what other option exists? Protest to the community team.

 

What other form of protest exists?

[eGraced]

So in your mind it is a simple binary decision, either pay the money and shut up and accept anything, or not pay the money and go away.

 

That's it, nothing else?

 

Fair enough, that is your choice. Clearly others see another option, which is to try and get the company that makes this game to do something different. In this case, many of them reached out to the only open source of contact, the community team, to express their displeasure.

 

As far as harassment goes, that has been covered. However, there does have to be some disruption to the stream in order to have an effect. Taking the topic off what is going on and taking it towards 3.0 and the issues with the game, and doing it to the point where it ruins the point of the stream, forces attention to the problem.

 

I live in Texas, I am about 2 hours away from Bioware Austin, I could hop in my car and drive there and complain in person, except they wouldn't give me the time of day. So I don't. So what other option exists? Protest to the community team.

 

What other form of protest exists?

 

I guess we just view this on a different scale. To me, it's a game I play to relax and enjoy, and nothing to get bent out of shape about. If I no longer enjoy the product, I stop buying it. I wouldn't set the cereal aisle on fire because they changed the taste of Frankenberry, and I would not harass and threaten the store clerk over it either. I would simply buy another cereal, or maybe eat eggs. I may even write a letter to the company, or call their customer service. I could even go so far as to write a post voicing my displeasure.

 

For you this seems to be worth the same kind of concentrated effort and organization that I put toward civil rights issues, feeding the hungry, or ending social injustice. Like I said, it's the sense of scale in your actions and your rhetoric that concern me.

Edited October 5, 2014 by eGraced

[Heat-Wave]

I guess we just view this on a different scale. To me, it's a game I play to relax and enjoy, and nothing to get bent out of shape about. If I no longer enjoy the product, I stop buying it. I wouldn't set the cereal aisle on fire because they changed the taste of Frankenberry, and I would not harass and threaten the store clerk over it either. I would simply buy another cereal, or maybe eat eggs. I may even write a letter to the company, or call their customer service. I could even go so far as to write a post voicing my displeasure.

 

For you this seems to be worth the same kind of concentrated effort and organization that I put toward civil rights issues, feeding the hungry, or ending social injustice. Like I said, it's the sense of scale in your actions and your rhetoric that concern me.

 

Hey, it is a first world problem, isn't it?

 

I actually agree with you that this does not rise to the level of real life social injustice. There are many of those out there, but if you take that approach, then by that logic we should all stop playing this game and use all our free time to go fight those issues.

 

As long as we're all here, then this is what we have to work with.

 

I would hope/suspect that Courtney and Hillary have thick enough skin to ignore personal attacks and sexual comments, we all agree those at out of line. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, there is clearly a base of frustrated players here.

 

We are passionate about the game, we are here because we love Star Wars. Frankly, if this game wasn't Star Wars, I'd leave in a heartbeat. Everyone has their own personal interests, this happens to be ours.

[ScarletBlaze]

I've been playing since launch and the behaviour on stream was uncalled. You keep saying this is something they need to deal with as it okay in real life. Not so, if this happened in real life charges could and can be brought against people like that. They can be arrested and charged with harrasement. Police and Judges take this seriously. Take a look at what happens in schools and how that is handled.

 

There is never an excuse to believe like this. I don't care how upset you may be over a postponed announcement behaviour that was shown on the stream was uncalled for. No one should have to deal with jerks like that and make no mistake people who act like that are jerks not people anyone will pay attention to.

 

In addition, you keep saying everyone is upset that is not so. I am not upset about the postponed announcement and neither is my guild. It may be the people you play with are upset but not everyone in the community is upset. Some people understand that the announcement was not written in stone and when it was postponed they accepted it with dignity and respect. Were they upset? Yes but they got past it and went on with the things.

Edited October 5, 2014 by ScarletBlaze

[Heat-Wave]

I've been playing since launch and the behaviour on stream was uncalled. You keep saying this is something they need to deal with as it okay in real life. Not so, if this happened in real life charges could and can be brought against people like that. They can be arrested and charged with harrasement. Police and Judges take this seriously. Take a look at what happens in schools and how that is handled.

 

There is never an excuse to believe like this. I don't care how upset you may be over a postponed announcement behaviour that was shown on the stream was uncalled for. No one should have to deal with jerks like that and make no mistake people who act like that are jerks not people anyone will pay attention to.

 

It is not acceptable to protest in real life?

 

What it feels like is that people are so focused on the personal attacks that they can't see the overall message. It is why Dr. Martin Luther King was such an advocate of non-violent protest. The minute you use violence, you lose the moral high ground and give the authorities the excuse they need to crush the protest.

 

So in effect, by continuing to refer to the few who made personal attacks, you draw attention away from the core issue.

[ScarletBlaze]

It is not acceptable to protest in real life?

 

What it feels like is that people are so focused on the personal attacks that they can't see the overall message. It is why Dr. Martin Luther King was such an advocate of non-violent protest. The minute you use violence, you lose the moral high ground and give the authorities the excuse they need to crush the protest.

 

So in effect, by continuing to refer to the few who made personal attacks, you draw attention away from the core issue.

 

Which in effect happens when someone goes past the accepted behaviour of a protest. When either one or two people go past the accepted behaviour and starts acting like jerks, your point in a protest is lost. You should understand that and you should also try to find out and explain that to others. If you truly want something changed then behaviour needs to be above board and never sink to personal attacks.