ImperialSun Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 You are completely off base here. When playing chess you have a fail condition. That being your opponent getting checkmate. You are forced to protect your king from attack. Leveling up in an MMORPG has no fail condition. At no point can you "fail" to continue leveling. Therefore, the only difference in something like dual spec or no dual spec is time consumed. With dual spec I can have one character that heals or does DPS at need, and with dual spec I can achieve the same scenario with two separate characters that both need their own loot/speeders/training etc. The chance of failure is raise by exactly 0% and the chance to fail to get to level 50 in the first place was, in game design terms, 0%. The only thing that can prevent my reaching 50 is deciding that it takes more time doing repetitive, easy tasks than I want to spend. You may call me "lazy" for this, but that is an argument akin to work rather than play. The issue with your chess example is trivially simple. Changing the movement rate of several of the pieces would radically alter the way the game played. Being able to switch specs doesn't alter gameplay in SWTOR except in a social engineering sense. The chance of failure would remain the same, 0%. You cannot fail when playing an MMORPG so your analogy is meaningless. You are again confusing difficulty with time-sink. No, you are confusing difficulty with effort. I'd be happy to have you dual spec with conditions such as prolonged cooldown, cost, requirements to travel to a city or space dock to invoke it etc etc... You on the other hand want it all available from a couple of mouse clicks with no effort. You dont want to have to level a toon, you dont want to have to move or blink or spend creds or shuttle or anything else....you just want your one man army robocop build so you can leet. If anything my friend, that attitude strikes me as 2004....not this game. Driz Driz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImperialSun Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 This already happens because the game has a respec system period. Adding dual specs would actually make your DPS/Healer more likely to have dabbled in healing as he leveled. Your use of the word "right" here is interesting. It has a certain moralizing quality about it. That seems pretty strange when discussing game design, no? Are you sure you aren't falling into the trap of thinking of the game as a job? No hes falling into the trap of thinking that decisions in MMORPGs have consequence. Exactly as it should be. Driz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basiliscus Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) You have 3 class trees....two core and a shared. Why not have tri spec then? Or better yet just have one class type that lets you max out all trees in the game? The perception is "I pay a sub so should have access to max level everyhing no matter what choices I made" after all. Driz I'm sure no one who wants dual spec would be opposed to tri. As I understand it, from just people in my guild, almost no one uses the shared tree (maybe its more pvp?) Might give people more incentive to give it a shot at higher levels. Your taking things so far to an extreme with your second point. No one is asking for an I win button, and dual spec is not, and has never been, in neither rift, nor WoW, an I win button. People either knew how to play their class or they did not. They either had the gear, or they did not. They either held the aggro, healed enough, or dpsed enough, or they did not. A gunnery commando is the same class as a combat medic commando, they just have different focuses that can be switched with credits. People will not be able to magically do 10million dps and 10 million hps during an operation boss fight. Edited December 29, 2011 by Basiliscus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalantris Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 No, you are confusing difficulty with effort. I'd be happy to have you dual spec with conditions such as prolonged cooldown, cost, requirements to travel to a city or space dock to invoke it etc etc... You on the other hand want it all available from a couple of mouse clicks with no effort. You dont want to have to level a toon, you dont want to have to move or blink or spend creds or shuttle or anything else....you just want your one man army robocop build so you can leet. If anything my friend, that attitude strikes me as 2004....not this game. Driz Driz There's a significant difference between effort and dumb time-eating activities. There is no effort in taking a shuttle somewhere to respec. I think you just don't understand what "effort" means and what it should be. Regards, Kalantris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackumDog Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 This already happens because the game has a respec system period. Adding dual specs would actually make your DPS/Healer more likely to have dabbled in healing as he leveled. Your use of the word "right" here is interesting. It has a certain moralizing quality about it. That seems pretty strange when discussing game design, no? Are you sure you aren't falling into the trap of thinking of the game as a job? I definitly don't imagine the game as a job, I work in IT and find it a form of relaxation. but I like to get things right, I play as a healer and I like to spend time getting my charater to work right and perform the best they can. What I do not like to see are people who really want to play DPS and because they cannot get a team, re-spec or because of dual spec magically become healers. They are not, they just know how to be first aiders I would accept dual spec if it were obvious you were dual specced and you were not a full tank, or a full dps or a full healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 No hes falling into the trap of thinking that decisions in MMORPGs have consequence. Exactly as it should be. Driz Are you talking about an MMORPG, or talking to your kids about drugs? All of the language you're using is moralizing and treats MMORPGs like they were jobs. Look back at what you're writing. It sounds like you are describing a *********** job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) I'd be happy to have you dual spec with conditions such as prolonged cooldown, cost, requirements to travel to a city or space dock to invoke it etc etc... I would accept dual spec if it had about a half hour cooldown and could only be activated in a rest area. How about that? Edited December 29, 2011 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImperialSun Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 There's a significant difference between effort and dumb time-eating activities. There is no effort in taking a shuttle somewhere to respec. I think you just don't understand what "effort" means and what it should be. Regards, Kalantris So where is the effort in: Max DPS - I rocks! Click Click, Confirm, Yes Max Heals - I rocks! Click Click, Confirm, Yes Max Tank - I rocks! Click Click, Confirm Yes Max DPS - I rocks! All the above could potentially take place in the space of 2-3 minutes.... Where is the effort in that? Driz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackumDog Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I really miss the days when the max group size in an MMO was whatever amount of players you could herd together, and everyone could just bring whatever they wanted, and you had to work with that. And downing a boss required, along with game skills, also leadership. Not just anyone could herd a 500 player army to down a dragon, and keep them from killing each other instead, before they even got there. Now a _Massively_ Multiplayer game is composed of 4-6 player parties, with a tiny portion of "Massiver" content compromising of maximum of 16-40 players (does wow still have 40 player raids even?), which is what we now call end-game raiding. What I find hilarious is that even in those days, healers and tanks were plenty. What changed? Why has everyone suddenly (apparently, according to pro-dualspecs) moved to DPS? I find solo questing on my healer sorc easier and faster than on any of my dps or tank characters, because even the healers can do respectable DPS, while they heal their companion to invincibility. ahhh Anarchy Online, with massive turn up raids and tower wars, yes small teams within, but when you were a healer a feeling of dread went through you when you felt the enemy had you as a target, and they were all assisiting .. 300 v 1 nanomange Healer...erk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) So where is the effort in: Max DPS - I rocks! Click Click, Confirm, Yes Max Heals - I rocks! Click Click, Confirm, Yes Max Tank - I rocks! Click Click, Confirm Yes Max DPS - I rocks! All the above could potentially take place in the space of 2-3 minutes.... Where is the effort in that? Driz How can one fail to get to 50? If you can't fail it's just busywork man. Edited December 29, 2011 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basiliscus Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) No, you are confusing difficulty with effort. I'd be happy to have you dual spec with conditions such as prolonged cooldown, cost, requirements to travel to a city or space dock to invoke it etc etc... Driz I'd actually have no problem with traveling to the fleet to change specs, Flash points all start out on the fleet anyway, so i could run over and switch em up before we start. But thats just a time sink, it isnt actually 'difficult' it just takes time away from killing things or healing people. Edited December 29, 2011 by Basiliscus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basiliscus Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) So where is the effort in: Max DPS - I rocks! Click Click, Confirm, Yes Max Heals - I rocks! Click Click, Confirm, Yes Max Tank - I rocks! Click Click, Confirm Yes Max DPS - I rocks! All the above could potentially take place in the space of 2-3 minutes.... Where is the effort in that? Driz just because you spec it, doesnt mean you're good at it. Ive seen plenty of fail tanks so far. Edited December 29, 2011 by Basiliscus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverScreemer Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I agree people dont like to do things, but just because they QQ does not make it right. There is nothing worse than finding your healer is really a DPSer who is just doing any job he can to join a team. What about not having a healer at all? I would say that's a bit worse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) I'd be happy to have you dual spec with conditions such as prolonged cooldown, cost, requirements to travel to a city or space dock to invoke it etc etc... I would accept dual spec if it had about a half hour cooldown and could only be activated in a rest area. How about that? That way I can still switch between specs for PvP vs PvE or group vs solo but it isn't like double parking the spec. No cross-AC spec goes without saying. It would be best for the advanced classes to remain separate, with perhaps a once-per-toon mulligan option. Edited December 29, 2011 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImperialSun Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Right, I'm clearly slacking off on the *job.* Look, your quite open about the fact that you want access to all specs at max with absolutely no effort on your part. I'm curious why you would even want to play a MMORPG in that case but each to their own. I just value the RPG in MMORPG and not just the MMO. Bottom line is you can respec any time you like, if you dont like it, no one is forcing you to use it and it wont affect your gameplay if others choose to use the option that is already on offer, remember? Use the tools you already have in game to switch specs as often as you want, or dont. It's your choice. I am just glad that BW have said no to LFD and seem to backtracking on the original statement ref dual speccing too. Driz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackumDog Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 What about not having a healer at all? I would say that's a bit worse... Yes it would be bad, or maybe you all take first aid kits in, look after yourselves and DPS like hell down the mobs, it is possible and there will be those that can do it, its called skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImperialSun Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I would accept dual spec if it had about a half hour cooldown and could only be activated in a rest area. How about that? Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me Driz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I am just glad that BW have said no to LFD and seem to backtracking on the original statement ref dual speccing too. While I would agree that the more recent statement seemed less conclusive, I think "backtracking" is taking it too far. I'd still put the odds of dualspec at something like 99.99% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgetorix Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Yeah, I don't understand all this 'please don't add dual spec' crap. Dual Spec is coming, so get over it! /thread These kind of posts add nothing to the discussion. Yes, it is most likely coming but why does that prevent people from discussing it on the forums? Isn't that what the forums are for, discussion? It's not about winning in the end. I'm against dual-specs but I enjoy reading why people support/are against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexxLT Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I vote for dual-spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 ahhh Anarchy Online, with massive turn up raids and tower wars, yes small teams within, but when you were a healer a feeling of dread went through you when you felt the enemy had you as a target, and they were all assisiting .. 300 v 1 nanomange Healer...erk Last time I had that feeling was flying "healers" in eve online a year or so back. Jump into 2000 people. Everything lights up yellow (indicator that they have you locked), then shortly after, red (indicator that they're shooting). All you can do is pray that your ship is fast enough and that they're close enough, that their big guns can't track you. One wrong turn and ship goes pop. And what an awesome feeling that was. In other news, I'm really hoping we get good space battles in the future here, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me Driz Alright, I guess we can drop this then. Happy trails. FYI: I don't particularly want people switching spec between pulls or switching between ACs either. Edited December 29, 2011 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackumDog Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me Driz To be honest I would prefer a single spec healer to be 100% capabile of their role, as with single spec DPS and single spec Tank. If you want a dual spec Tank/DPS then im happy for you to switch whenever you want, but you should never reach above 80% in capability of the single spec role. This effect would give teams the chance to choose a real tank or real healer if necessary, but in a way be good for dual spec players as they would have to play better to get the same effect as single spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 To be honest I would prefer a single spec healer to be 100% capabile of their role, as with single spec DPS and single spec Tank. If you want a dual spec Tank/DPS then im happy for you to switch whenever you want, but you should never reach above 80% in capability of the single spec role. This effect would give teams the chance to choose a real tank or real healer if necessary, but in a way be good for dual spec players as they would have to play better to get the same effect as single spec. Being a "real tank" or a "real healer" is a wetware skillset that exists in your brain man. It doesn't need to be artificially enforced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SalvorHardin Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 You want to play 2 roles, you play 2 characters. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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