Bioware: Is Crafting to Win™ intended?

[Nepthen]

Of course for the individual quests it would kill anyone's chances to complete it for those who prefer not to run FPs and OPs or PvP, but does do crafting. But since those people don't matter, it's all good.

 

I'm not saying get rid of crafting!

 

To your point, if person A loves to craft but person B loves to PvP, is it fair that person A can generate more points by crafting than person B can by PvP, in the same amount of time spent in-game? They're both doing what they love but Person A has an advantage solely because s/he prefers one playstyle to another. If you take into consideration that Person A can generate additional points while logged off, it's even worse.

 

Crafting doesn't need to be removed, it needs to be adjusted so that it's more in-line with other avenues of conquest point generation.

[ParagonAX]

I can't believe that people are still thinking that:

 

- Crafting is not broken

- We are out to "kill" crafting

- Crafting is the only solution for small guilds to fight big ones

[DarthTHC]

I'm not saying get rid of crafting!

 

To your point, if person A loves to craft but person B loves to PvP, is it fair that person A can generate more points by crafting than person B can by PvP, in the same amount of time spent in-game? They're both doing what they love but Person A has an advantage solely because s/he prefers one playstyle to another. If you take into consideration that Person A can generate additional points while logged off, it's even worse.

 

Crafting doesn't need to be removed, it needs to be adjusted so that it's more in-line with other avenues of conquest point generation.

 

I'm not sure how accurate that highlighted statement is.

 

To get points at crafting, you must first gather the resources to craft. Each 1,000 points (assuming 100% stronghold bonus and bonused crafting objectives) requires at least 24 raw materials, which you have to farm, get via missions, or buy.

 

If you're farming, 35k worth of crafting materials is going to take a while.

 

If you're using missions, 35k worth of crafting materials is going to take you several hours of cycling alts to run the missions.

 

If you're buying from GTN, you're going to need millions so you're going to need time to get those millions.

 

I think you're discounting the time that goes into the crafting points because you assume the raw materials are just there for the immediate taking. That's not the case. You must consider the time it takes to acquire the raw materials by whatever means in the equation.

[DarthTHC]

I can't believe that people are still thinking that:

 

- Crafting is not broken

- We are out to "kill" crafting

- Crafting is the only solution for small guilds to fight big ones

 

Just on the last point, what other method is there for a small, active guild to beat a big, active guild if crafting is capped / nerfed to the extent you'd like?

[ParagonAX]

Just on the last point, what other method is there for a small, active guild to beat a big, active guild if crafting is capped / nerfed to the extent you'd like?

 

You really don't read, do you?

[Foambreaker]

Just on the last point, what other method is there for a small, active guild to beat a big, active guild if crafting is capped / nerfed to the extent you'd like?

 

Do moar WZ...

 

Seriously, this whole thread is basically some people ignoring the cost of mats, pretending you can just log in once a day and craft 25 items.

 

If these people had spent any time running around gathering mats where would not be posting.

 

Sure people had a backlog of mats built up over years where there was nothing worth producing except MK-6 or MK-9 + Augments. When those mats are gone crafting will not be as much of a factor.

[Grayseven]

Just on the last point, what other method is there for a small, active guild to beat a big, active guild if crafting is capped / nerfed to the extent you'd like?

 

None. No matter what, a small guild can't beat a big one unless the big guild actively decides not to compete at all.

 

This isn't a debate of small versus big, it's a debate about crafting being OP compared to all other Conquest activities.

[DarthTHC]

You really don't read, do you?

 

You keep asserting you have it covered yet you can't point me to a post number. No, I'm not reading 600 posts in this thread or your post history just to find that you really don't have it covered.

 

If you have it covered, step up and show it. It can't be that hard... you wrote it so you know where it is, right?

[DarthTHC]

None. No matter what, a small guild can't beat a big one unless the big guild actively decides not to compete at all.

 

This isn't a debate of small versus big, it's a debate about crafting being OP compared to all other Conquest activities.

 

Not really. If the winners won't change regardless what happens, then this really boils down to the winners wanting their wins to cost fewer credits.

[ParagonAX]

You keep asserting you have it covered yet you can't point me to a post number. No, I'm not reading 600 posts in this thread or your post history just to find that you really don't have it covered.

 

If you have it covered, step up and show it. It can't be that hard... you wrote it so you know where it is, right?

 

It's on the page before this one. You know, barely 10 posts above. Sigh.

 

Edit: this is my last post responding to anything from you. You are obviously a troll. And a bad one at that due to lack of effort. I shouldn't even have made as many replies to you as I had. Kudos to you.

Edited October 2, 2014 by ParagonAX

[DarthTHC]

It's on the page before this one. You know, barely 10 posts above. Sigh.

 

You'll have to be more specific because I don't see anything that looks like, "This is how small guild can beat a big guild without crafting." in that post range. Every post has a number. What's the number?

[Grayseven]

Not really. If the winners won't change regardless what happens, then this really boils down to the winners wanting their wins to cost fewer credits.

 

Nope. It boils down to balancing crafting so it isn't the predominant source of Conquest points.

 

Unless you see nothing wrong with 1st and second having 40 million points and 3rd having 4 million.

[ParagonAX]

Do moar WZ...

 

Seriously, this whole thread is basically some people ignoring the cost of mats, pretending you can just log in once a day and craft 25 items.

 

If these people had spent any time running around gathering mats where would not be posting.

 

Sure people had a backlog of mats built up over years where there was nothing worth producing except MK-6 or MK-9 + Augments. When those mats are gone crafting will not be as much of a factor.

 

Seriously, the main people pressing for change are GMs of guilds who have done this before as a guild. Multiple times. To say that we don't know the associated logistics behind crafting is laughable.

 

In fact, I dare say there are no people more knowledgeable on the logistics of crafting than the proponents in this thread.

[Primarch_PWnD]

You really don't read, do you?

 

Of course not, because he views this thread as an attack on Bioware, and he views attacks on Bioware as inherently "wrong".

 

But this isn't a "right versus wrong" issue. This is an issue that needs a solution.

 

There's absolutely, positively, no way the current point-tally for crafting is in-line with the spirit of Conquests.

 

Add in that fact that the large guilds are essentially getting more free crafting materials for placing top-10 than the smaller guilds that can't place that high, and the next weeks' conquest is already "rigged" for a repeat of the top-10 guilds.

 

Look at it this way, if my guild places top-10, and I hit my conquest goal with 6 different characters, I have a free 60-purple grade materials, 60-blue grade materials, and 90-green grade materials. That's tens of thousands of free conquest points for just 1 person in that guild.

 

I think THC himself was talking about how expensive the crafting materials can be, and how that in and of itself is a limiting factor, but ignored all the free mats the large guilds are getting each week, which are essentially giving them free points each week, further adding to the divide between the "haves" and have-nots".

[DarthTHC]

Nope. It boils down to balancing crafting so it isn't the predominant source of Conquest points.

 

Unless you see nothing wrong with 1st and second having 40 million points and 3rd having 4 million.

 

If 3 through 10 are anything like the other guilds I'm familiar with that can consistently place and win once in a while, they probably saw they were up against the 2 juggernauts and decided placing would be fine this week. Guilds actively deciding to limit their point totals because the bigger guild is going to win anyway doesn't mean crafting should be nerfed. It means those guilds know they can't compete.

 

So it still really boils down to credits. Nerfing crafting takes 1st and 2nd from crafting to the tune of many tens of millions of credits worth of materials because they wanted to fight with each other, down to a much smaller number of millions.

 

As you said earlier, they're going to win anyway. The only variable in play is how much they have to craft to do it. The only impact that has on them is how many credits they spend on materials. That's the motivation. Credits.

[Nepthen]

I'm not sure how accurate that highlighted statement is.

 

To get points at crafting, you must first gather the resources to craft. Each 1,000 points (assuming 100% stronghold bonus and bonused crafting objectives) requires at least 24 raw materials, which you have to farm, get via missions, or buy.

 

If you're farming, 35k worth of crafting materials is going to take a while.

 

If you're using missions, 35k worth of crafting materials is going to take you several hours of cycling alts to run the missions.

 

If you're buying from GTN, you're going to need millions so you're going to need time to get those millions.

 

I think you're discounting the time that goes into the crafting points because you assume the raw materials are just there for the immediate taking. That's not the case. You must consider the time it takes to acquire the raw materials by whatever means in the equation.

 

I'm taking all of that into consideration. I have sustained my own crafting by sending out companions, manually farming mats, running dailies for credits to purchase mats, etc. It's boring as hell and I only did it when we were in a crafting war. If I needed to do it again, I would.

[DarthTHC]

I'm taking all of that into consideration. I have sustained my own crafting by sending out companions, manually farming mats, running dailies for credits to purchase mats, etc. It's boring as hell and I only did it when we were in a crafting war. If I needed to do it again, I would.

 

So time-wise, when you factor in all that mission running and such, how does that compare on a points-per-hour basis with war zones or flash points or whatever else you've done?

[Domatron]

If 3 through 10 are anything like the other guilds I'm familiar with that can consistently place and win once in a while, they probably saw they were up against the 2 juggernauts and decided placing would be fine this week. Guilds actively deciding to limit their point totals because the bigger guild is going to win anyway doesn't mean crafting should be nerfed. It means those guilds know they can't compete.

 

So it still really boils down to credits. Nerfing crafting takes 1st and 2nd from crafting to the tune of many tens of millions of credits worth of materials because they wanted to fight with each other, down to a much smaller number of millions.

 

As you said earlier, they're going to win anyway. The only variable in play is how much they have to craft to do it. The only impact that has on them is how many credits they spend on materials. That's the motivation. Credits.

 

Nerfing crafting point totals doesn't make it less expensive, two determined guilds will still craft their butts off to get every available point. Nerfing crafting will only bring it in line with other activities and prevent absurd point totals that your small guild has literally no prayer of ever reaching.

Small guilds will still overtake large ones with more dedication, it's not like the point totals only change for one.

[DarthTHC]

Nerfing crafting point totals doesn't make it less expensive, two determined guilds will still craft their butts off to get every available point. Nerfing crafting will only bring it in line with other activities and prevent absurd point totals that your small guild has literally no prayer of ever reaching.

Small guilds will still overtake large ones with more dedication, it's not like the point totals only change for one.

 

Nerfing crafting points DOES make it less expensive.

 

Let's say you can only get 35k points per character by crafting. You're going to craft 35 items (assuming bonuses) and STOP.

 

If you are uncapped, you might craft for over a million points, costing you almost 30 times as much in raw materials.

[Jadescythe]

Nerfing crafting points DOES make it less expensive.

 

Let's say you can only get 35k points per character by crafting. You're going to craft 35 items (assuming bonuses) and STOP.

 

If you are uncapped, you might craft for over a million points, costing you almost 30 times as much in raw materials.

 

Ok, but what if they just award half the points they currently do for crafting without a cap? Or 1/4 of the points? It's not capped, it just isn't as substantial of a point gain. So the two guilds that do the same number of everything else will be determined by crafting score. But guilds who do more of other conquest objectives aren't penalized so heavily for crafting less, since they can actually make up the points evenly in other activites.

[TUXs]

Ok, but what if they just award half the points they currently do for crafting without a cap? Or 1/4 of the points? It's not capped, it just isn't as substantial of a point gain. So the two guilds that do the same number of everything else will be determined by crafting score. But guilds who do more of other conquest objectives aren't penalized so heavily for crafting less, since they can actually make up the points evenly in other activites.

This is exactly what they need to do imo. No "caps", but reduce the points drastically. They should have done the same for FP's rather than making them once and done. Allow people to craft, do WZ's, do FP's, whatever...but make them all reasonable point totals, not absurdly slanted towards Crafting. Hell, you can craft when your not even online...it's unbalanced for that fact alone.

[Grayseven]

Nerfing crafting points DOES make it less expensive.

 

Let's say you can only get 35k points per character by crafting. You're going to craft 35 items (assuming bonuses) and STOP.

 

If you are uncapped, you might craft for over a million points, costing you almost 30 times as much in raw materials.

 

Nerfing crafting will make it more expensive if guilds continue to use crafting as the major Conquest point source. The points awarded simply need to be in line with the points awarded for other activities. It won't stop crafting from being used to excess but will make it less attractive, encouraging more guild activities and less solo play in Conquest.

[oofalong]

Smaller guilds can indeed compete against bigger ones now, via crafting, but they have to be smart about it. I'm not talking micro guilds with 4 players, but guilds that are still far smaller than the behemoths.

 

Think of it like a distance race. You stay "close enough" until you're near the finish line, then you pour it on.

 

It has been done and will continue to be done unless the OP's proposal to nerf crafting points is implemented.

 

I believe your position is: The only way for small guilds to potentially compete against larger guilds is for the small guilds to do extensive crafting - is this fair? If so, your position assumes that big guilds don't engage in this behavior as well. Assuming a little guild and big guild both try to drop crafting bombs at the end, the big guild will always win by virtue of more members/crafters. In other words, what you perceive to be the great equalizer within Conquests is only true if there is asymmetrical behavior.

 

That said, right now crafting can help small guilds beat larger guilds who choose not to engage in crafting; however, this is a not a good design. Shouldn't there be a viable and unique strategy for small guilds to beat a larger guild? Unfortunately, no one has come up with a good solution. Still, in order to come up with the best possible solution one needs to fully understand the problem. And, part of the problem is in the disproportionate reward the Conquest crafting offers, right?

[ParagonAX]

I believe your position is: The only way for small guilds to potentially compete against larger guilds is for the small guilds to do extensive crafting - is this fair? If so, your position assumes that big guilds don't engage in this behavior as well. Assuming a little guild and big guild both try to drop crafting bombs at the end, the big guild will always win by virtue of more members/crafters. In other words, what you perceive to be the great equalizer within Conquests is only true if there is asymmetrical behavior.

 

That said, right now crafting can help small guilds beat larger guilds who choose not to engage in crafting; however, this is a not a good design. Shouldn't there be a viable and unique strategy for small guilds to beat a larger guild? Unfortunately, no one has come up with a good solution. Still, in order to come up with the best possible solution one needs to fully understand the problem. And, part of the problem is in the disproportionate reward the Conquest crafting offers, right?

 

Here was mine: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7703430&postcount=599

[DarthTHC]

Nerfing crafting will make it more expensive if guilds continue to use crafting as the major Conquest point source. The points awarded simply need to be in line with the points awarded for other activities. It won't stop crafting from being used to excess but will make it less attractive, encouraging more guild activities and less solo play in Conquest.

 

Define "in line with". Does it include taking into consideration the other benefits of the other activities (war zones, flash points, ops, etc.) as well as the Conquest Points?

 

What's the ratio / right balance?