My issues with the Forged Alliances storyline [spoilers]

[Vazili]

Everybody likes to remember how Revs was before TOR. Nobody seems to notice how he is during the Malestron/Foundry arc. At least I don't think they do. Because I.. uhm... didn't read most of the previous comments xD

 

Anyhoo, here's my two cents. Revan, after being freed, wasn't the "good guy" he was when he set off strumping after the Emperor 300 years in the past. Let us not forget he thought the best he could do was stay in the Emperor's stasis chamber, and keep trying to influence the guy's mind. When he gets sprung for jail, he goes for what he considers the second best thing: just kill all the Sith. Does that sound Dark Side to you? It does to me.

 

His pet assassin droid (whose skills HK is happy to tell us his master is in no shame of using) lays out basically what he intends to do. Wipe out, crush, smash, burn and disembowel 97% of the Imperial population. No argument. Got Sith blood? BAM! Dead! Got a Sith great-great-great-great-grandfather? BAM! Dead! Does that sound Dark Side to you? It does to me. He even uses Force Storm now and again, and we all know who was the poster boy for that skill was: Darth Sidious.

 

I found the Foundry the perfect end for Revan. Much better would it be had Bioware not provided any fan service at all, granted, but they did, and in my opinion they could not have done it better. Let Revan die as he always lived - an overrated character to whom the ends always justify the means (clichè anti-hero if ever there was one). At least he died with some dignity that the fans took away from him with all the embellishment and ego polishing. (***FAIR WARNING***: This was my opinion. ***** about it if you want, I won't respond) Of course, before Bioware brought back zombie Revan to haunt our sleep again...

 

So what are his motivations? No idea. The development will tell. What we can be sure is this, or at least that's what I expect. Revan's no longer the good guy, has not been since the Foundry. That means Dark Side. But whatever Bioware does with this mess, we can expect them to keep along the track it has been following, of offering the same story to both sides, with only minute differences and with pubes and imps working together to save the galaxy weeeeeeeeee! Cheesy, lazy storytelling, especially if you compare with the past history of eight different, intertwined but independent stories developped outside of the realm of fan service (talking about the class stories now).

 

PS: Revan's return was annoyingly obvious, the moment Bioware changed his death animation from a proper death animation to a lame flash of lightning that got the fans drooling and speaking of teleports and whatnot (hasn't the EU butchered the Force enough without teleports?). The circumstances of his return, however, should have been better. On a sidenote, when will content once again to be developped outside of tactical flashpoint *****? Give us a planet already! No, Bioware, I'm not interested in visiting refurbished planets from KotOR, keep Kashyyyk to yourself if you please. And no, Bioware, offering an empty planet that's just a two-area platform for your quests does not qualify either.

 

I don't necessarily agree with the criticisms of Revan as a character, but most of this is spot on for me. This whole Revan as Lazarus/Jesus come to cleanse the world storyline that seems to be in the works just seems like the laziest story someone could type up. Just another chapter in the saga of "lets not make the enemies fight, lets make them join together and overcome their differences." If they really must do that sort of mundane storytelling I'd prefer they'd just make up a random generic bad guy so they don't have to keep dragging up and mutilating previous characters.

[Foxtrotmikelima]

Its my opinion that Revan isnt actually Revan. The true Revan died fighting the Sith in the Foundry.

 

But I do agree with you OP. I wish they had never involved him with SWTOR in the manner they have. This whole Revan thing smells of Executive involvement. Someone decided SWTOR needed a Luke Skywalker like NPC that would pull in subs. And Revan fit the bill.

 

When I played the mission freeing Revan..I shook my head at the idea that for 300 years. Revan sat in some prison playing mental pattycake with the Emperor and he was able to step out sane. It didnt make any sense. At the least he would of lost his mind. Been turned to the dark side once more since the Emperor easily had done it before. But still alive....hadnt aged a day in 300 years. It was horrible story telling.

 

As for EU. Theres a reason the EU wasnt considered Film Level Canon. Authors left and right began to try and one up each other with more and more ridiculous stories. Im glad Disney put their foot down.

[Jrr_hypernova]

Everybody likes to remember how Revs was before TOR. Nobody seems to notice how he is during the Malestron/Foundry arc. At least I don't think they do. Because I.. uhm... didn't read most of the previous comments xD

 

Anyhoo, here's my two cents. Revan, after being freed, wasn't the "good guy" he was when he set off strumping after the Emperor 300 years in the past. Let us not forget he thought the best he could do was stay in the Emperor's stasis chamber, and keep trying to influence the guy's mind. When he gets sprung for jail, he goes for what he considers the second best thing: just kill all the Sith. Does that sound Dark Side to you? It does to me.

 

His pet assassin droid (whose skills HK is happy to tell us his master is in no shame of using) lays out basically what he intends to do. Wipe out, crush, smash, burn and disembowel 97% of the Imperial population. No argument. Got Sith blood? BAM! Dead! Got a Sith great-great-great-great-grandfather? BAM! Dead! Does that sound Dark Side to you? It does to me. He even uses Force Storm now and again, and we all know who was the poster boy for that skill was: Darth Sidious.

 

I found the Foundry the perfect end for Revan. Much better would it be had Bioware not provided any fan service at all, granted, but they did, and in my opinion they could not have done it better. Let Revan die as he always lived - an overrated character to whom the ends always justify the means (clichè anti-hero if ever there was one). At least he died with some dignity that the fans took away from him with all the embellishment and ego polishing. (***FAIR WARNING***: This was my opinion. ***** about it if you want, I won't respond) Of course, before Bioware brought back zombie Revan to haunt our sleep again...

 

So what are his motivations? No idea. The development will tell. What we can be sure is this, or at least that's what I expect. Revan's no longer the good guy, has not been since the Foundry. That means Dark Side. But whatever Bioware does with this mess, we can expect them to keep along the track it has been following, of offering the same story to both sides, with only minute differences and with pubes and imps working together to save the galaxy weeeeeeeeee! Cheesy, lazy storytelling, especially if you compare with the past history of eight different, intertwined but independent stories developped outside of the realm of fan service (talking about the class stories now).

 

PS: Revan's return was annoyingly obvious, the moment Bioware changed his death animation from a proper death animation to a lame flash of lightning that got the fans drooling and speaking of teleports and whatnot (hasn't the EU butchered the Force enough without teleports?). The circumstances of his return, however, should have been better. On a sidenote, when will content once again to be developped outside of tactical flashpoint *****? Give us a planet already! No, Bioware, I'm not interested in visiting refurbished planets from KotOR, keep Kashyyyk to yourself if you please. And no, Bioware, offering an empty planet that's just a two-area platform for your quests does not qualify either.

 

Force teleport was part of the eu before tor and there were much much stupider force power that got added by the eu

[Darth_Wicked]

Its my opinion that Revan isnt actually Revan. The true Revan died fighting the Sith in the Foundry.

 

But I do agree with you OP. I wish they had never involved him with SWTOR in the manner they have. This whole Revan thing smells of Executive involvement. Someone decided SWTOR needed a Luke Skywalker like NPC that would pull in subs. And Revan fit the bill.

 

When I played the mission freeing Revan..I shook my head at the idea that for 300 years. Revan sat in some prison playing mental pattycake with the Emperor and he was able to step out sane. It didnt make any sense. At the least he would of lost his mind. Been turned to the dark side once more since the Emperor easily had done it before. But still alive....hadnt aged a day in 300 years. It was horrible story telling.

 

As for EU. Theres a reason the EU wasnt considered Film Level Canon. Authors left and right began to try and one up each other with more and more ridiculous stories. Im glad Disney put their foot down.

 

Had you payed attention to what is said during Maelstrom Prison, you'd know that the Emperor kept him in stasis and alive, using the same kind of Sith Alchemy he used for Scourge, when he made the latter his Wrath.

 

If you wanna nitpick, at least do it right.

[Foxtrotmikelima]

Had you payed attention to what is said during Maelstrom Prison, you'd know that the Emperor kept him in stasis and alive, using the same kind of Sith Alchemy he used for Scourge, when he made the latter his Wrath.

 

If you wanna nitpick, at least do it right.

 

Since youve decided to make this a hostile exchange. Its paid not payed. As for actually paying attention, that fact didnt get passed me. I simply think it was horrible storytelling.

 

Dark Council plots to kill Emperor. He annihilates all of them and replaces them.

 

Jedi Knight, sworn enemy of the Sith, shows up looking to kill the Emperor. Emperor puts him in a prison and mentally links with him for 300 years.

 

So maybe you should take your own advice. Nitipicking? Do it right.

[Darth_Wicked]

Since youve decided to make this a hostile exchange. Its paid not payed.

 

It's not hostile, it's being accurate. Also, english is not my mother tongue, so some slips are bound to happen.

 

As for actually paying attention, that fact didnt get passed me. I simply think it was horrible storytelling.

 

Whether it's horrible or not, that's your opinion. FACT remains you chose to conveniently ignore it.

 

Dark Council plots to kill Emperor. He annihilates all of them and replaces them.

 

At the time, there wasn't a war going on between the Empire and the Republic.

 

I doubt even the Emperor could afford the luxury to remove the Dark Council in one sitting, leaving the Empire leaderless even for a short time.

 

Jedi Knight, sworn enemy of the Sith, shows up looking to kill the Emperor. Emperor puts him in a prison and mentally links with him for 300 years.

 

Again, it is explained in the game as to why he did it.

 

So maybe you should take your own advice. Nitipicking? Do it right.

 

I'm not the one overlooking or ignoring story aspects just because I found them "horrible", the latter coming across as a poor excuse. The explanation is there, aptly contextualized with in the story.

 

If you don't like it, that's YOUR prerogative.

 

Again though, there's an explanation as to why the Emperor acted the way he did. It reflects poorly on you to try and infer such is not the case.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Ershiin]

"I know what you're thinking, but the Foundry was merely a setback. Did you honestly believe I would trust the future with some dingy old Rakatan tech? Hahahaha! Oh, no, no, no, it was merely an instrument, a stepping stone to a much larger plan! It has all lead to this... and this time, you will not interfere!" - Revan doing his best Kael'thas impersonation. Edited September 28, 2014 by Ershiin

[idnewton]

Since youve decided to make this a hostile exchange. Its paid not payed. As for actually paying attention, that fact didnt get passed me. I simply think it was horrible storytelling.

 

Dark Council plots to kill Emperor. He annihilates all of them and replaces them.

 

Jedi Knight, sworn enemy of the Sith, shows up looking to kill the Emperor. Emperor puts him in a prison and mentally links with him for 300 years.

 

So maybe you should take your own advice. Nitipicking? Do it right.

 

Don't be a d*** unless you know what you're talking about. News flash: you don't.

 

It's more like this: Jedi shows up, Emperor mind-controls him as he does with almost everyone else in his service, and sends him back to the Republic to find the Star Forge. A few years later the Jedi shows up again, and tries to kill him again. Emperor puts him in stasis and constantly feeds on his thoughts trying to discover how he broke free of the mind control.

Edited September 28, 2014 by idnewton

[Stinghen]

Force teleport was part of the eu before tor and there were much much stupider force power that got added by the eu

 

But a media such as this, endorsing that ridiculous bit of power, has the potential to reach many more people than some obscure comics lost amidst so many Star Wars comic books. I prefer the Force as it was in Episodes I-VI, where a pretty awesome and sinister display was... Force choking someone, as Vader did to that cheeky admiral on Episode IV.

[DarthBlaide]

I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that not many, if anyone, posting in this has even read the Revan novel. If you had then a lot of the comments and questions here would have been answered in some shape or form.

 

Revan didn't "die" at the Foundry. That has never been the plan from Bioware. As for the OP's sentiments about Revan possibly resurrecting and it taking away from the credit of the story...remember the Emperor has been alive and well for 1000 years. The Force can do whatever the heck it wants

 

The Jedi Council not listening to him is not a new thing. The book tells us how Revan wasn't accepted by the Jedi Council back after KOTOR. Even though he was redeemed, he was still Revan, the one who brought death to the Republic. This Jedi Council would probably share the same sentiments.

 

As for Revan "leading the charge", as a Jedi yes. As a Sith, he was on his fleet when mass shadow generators went off on Malachor V. So we see the difference there.

 

As for this circumstance, I don't see him hiding and letting his lackey's do all the work. He has been hiding in the shadows, biding his time, and waiting for the time to strike. Obviously Revan is not going to lead a strike against Tython and Korriban in person. He can't be in two places at once, and he doesn't need to be. He is playing it smart, and using his strategic mind that is apart of who he is. The war technically did not begin until he revealed himself. I believe we will see him leading the charge once again.

 

I honestly think this is heading in a possible two directions:

 

1. This isn't really Revan. Someone is just using the Revanites to further their plans.

2. It is Revan, and he is doing what he believes is best to defeat the Empire and rebuild the Republic.

 

I am excited to see what will happen. Revan is my favorite EU character. What I really want to see is Revan, Satele and Theron have some interaction since they are his descendants.

Edited October 5, 2014 by DarthBlaide

[Sixaola]

I honestly think this is heading in a possible two directions:

 

1. This isn't really Revan. Someone is just using the Revanites to further their plans.

2. It is Revan, and he is doing what he believes is best to defeat the Empire and rebuild the Republic.

 

 

I think more or less on the same way as you do Blaide. There is a strong possibility that his is not Revan at all, given all the wackos out there in the galaxy.

 

But if it is Revan, we certainly don't know what has happened to him after the Foundry. I am still skeptical that Malgus is really dead (Obi Wan thought Anakin was dead) and what he mentions at the end of False Emperor, makes you think that there are other players here and bigger stakes than just the Republic vrs Sith. To top that off, we really don't know the Emperor is dead, and while many characters mention it during the class storylines, reality is that someone with the leve of power and knowledge of Sith sorcery, will definitively be pltting in the dark.

 

I think we have seen only glimpses or a bigger conflict brewing in the dark.

[DarthBlaide]

I completely agree.

 

On my knight, I keep getting mail about Satele feeling a disturbance in the force. She may have been referring to Revan, or the fact the Emperor is still alive.

 

On my warrior, Thing 1 and Thing 2 (my nickname for Servant 1 and Servant 2) keep sending me mail hinting at the emperor still being alive.

 

So there is much we don't know.

[Darth_Wicked]

I think more or less on the same way as you do Blaide. There is a strong possibility that his is not Revan at all, given all the wackos out there in the galaxy.

 

But if it is Revan, we certainly don't know what has happened to him after the Foundry. I am still skeptical that Malgus is really dead (Obi Wan thought Anakin was dead) and what he mentions at the end of False Emperor, makes you think that there are other players here and bigger stakes than just the Republic vrs Sith. To top that off, we really don't know the Emperor is dead, and while many characters mention it during the class storylines, reality is that someone with the leve of power and knowledge of Sith sorcery, will definitively be pltting in the dark.

 

I think we have seen only glimpses or a bigger conflict brewing in the dark.

 

Malgus already served his purpose. I really don't see where they could take him next.

 

He was never meant to lead but to enforce change, even if he wasn't there to see it.

 

Dead or alive, he already won.

 

I still wish the only way to defeat him was to throw him into the chasm though; Good guys never really "die".

 

I completely agree.

 

On my knight, I keep getting mail about Satele feeling a disturbance in the force. She may have been referring to Revan, or the fact the Emperor is still alive.

 

On my warrior, Thing 1 and Thing 2 (my nickname for Servant 1 and Servant 2) keep sending me mail hinting at the emperor still being alive.

 

So there is much we don't know.

 

They don't hint the Emperor is alive; They affirm he is.

 

Big difference.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[DarthBlaide]

Yeah, I couldn't remember if they actually confirmed it....so I said hinted at it. Thank you for confirming =)

[Kyrrant]

I suppose a lot of this comes down to your interpretation of Revan, and KOTOR itself. Understandable, given that this is a player-defined character in KOTOR, and while Light Side is canon, it doesn't mean that Revan is going to be super-huggy-nice.

 

The problem that I'm having is that, in my eyes, the whole theme of KOTOR (at least, the LS part of it) is that of Redemption. Revan, Bastilla, not to mention her mother, Carth's son, Zaalabar, Mission's brother, the Mandalorians... there's this theme of hope, second chances, a return to glory... or just the chance to make amends for past failures.

 

Given how much of Star Wars at that point was grim and depressing (...this was between EP2 and 3, after all), not to mention how much of a depressing streak popculture was in, this sort of optimism, but not in a childish, patronizing way, was wonderful. Even Malak can see the light as he lays there dying. There was even going to be a bit where a DS Female Revan could get redeemed a second time by Carth, before the scene was cut (probably for sequel reasons).

 

That's why Revan's presence in the Foundry infuriates me so much. For anyone to stoop to Genocide is horrific enough, but for HIM? The man who was the Republic's biggest enemy turned into their savior, who brought his wife back from the darkness, who saw so many evil people turned back to the light, to decide that the only rational thing to do is murder countless billions of people because they're on the wrong side?

 

And then this... there better be more to this than just "Revan went evil again, we need to go take him down". The Foundry already spat on KOTOR's legacy, this would just be rubbing its face in the dirt. I would've been much happier if they never brought up Revan once in TOR, compared to this trainwreck.

[idnewton]

I have an idea, I don't think it's been mentioned yet. Revan was in the Emperor's prison for 300 years. We haven't heard anything about the new avatar the Hand went to prepare.

 

The Emperor never managed to learn the location of the Foundry while Revan was in containment. We're told the Emperor allowed his escape from the Maelstrom Prison so he could learn the location of the Foundry, but maybe there's more to it than that.

 

The Emperor could've conducted any number of rituals on Revan while he was incapacitated. This is my theory:

 

 

Revan is captured by the Emperor, the Emperor locks him in stasis and feeds off of his mind for the next three centuries. The only thing he doesn't manage to discover is the location of the Foundry.

 

In order to learn of its location, the Emperor allows for the release of Revan, hoping Revan will then go to the Foundry. When he arrives, the Emperor attempts to wrestle control of Revan's body and use him as an Avatar, but he fails.

 

It's possible the Emperor also has a fail-safe plan to preserve Revan himself in case something goes wrong, by translocating his body to a location prepared ahead of time. While his attempts to dominate Revan's mind fail, he cannot remove Revan from the Foundry because he still needs to learn it's location. However, once the Imperial strike team learns of its location and assaults it, the Emperor no longer needs Revan to remain within the Foundry.

 

The strike team confronts Revan and defeats him, however, just as he says his last words, the Emperor seizes the opportunity of Revan's weakened state to safely translocate him to the predetermined place. The strike team believes him to be dead, as does the Republic, but in reality the Emperor has contained Revan again, after gaining control of the Foundry, and holds him in reserve for the right moment.

 

With the Hutt Cartel's invasion of Makeb brought to an end, and the Isotope 5 in the possession of the Empire, the Emperor can harness it's power to launch a surprise invasion through the avatar of Revan and complete his master plan of the galaxy-consuming ritual.

 

With the dismantling of Imperial Intelligence and the Dark Council's obedience to the Emperor in question, the Emperor must forge a new army and strike at both the Jedi and Sith alike, specifically Korriban and Tython. The Emperor knows, as Revan did, that the force users are the ones who truly control the tide of the war. He knows he must cripple both of them in order to succeed in his plans.

 

However, he doesn't count on the Empire and Republic uniting together as they did against the Dread Masters. The combined might of the galaxy's greatest powers forces the Emperor to retreat to the jungle world of Yavin IV, where his true body lies in wait.

 

The Empire and Republic join forces to combat the Emperor's Hand and the famed Imperial Guards, leading up to the ultimate confrontation that will decide the fate of the Galaxy.

Edited October 6, 2014 by idnewton

[DarthBlaide]

I pray you are right, my friend...

 

Revan has always been my favorite. Loved him in KOTOR, loved him in the book, and even enjoyed him in TOR. But I agree that this cannot be the Revan we know and love. The Emperor has to be influencing him somehow.

 

The reason Scourge turns against the Emperor in the book is because he knows the Emperor wants to kill every single being in the Universe and use their life force to make him live forever. He even goes on to say that there are more galaxies out there that he can go to and steal their life energies as well. And when the Universe is completely dry of life, he will simply wait for life to start over again.

 

The more and more I think about it, the more I believe Revan is being deceived and twisted by the Emperor. It would allow for Revan's redemption to make sense.

[Branosaros]

I pray you are right, my friend...

 

Revan has always been my favorite. Loved him in KOTOR, loved him in the book, and even enjoyed him in TOR. But I agree that this cannot be the Revan we know and love. The Emperor has to be influencing him somehow.

 

The reason Scourge turns against the Emperor in the book is because he knows the Emperor wants to kill every single being in the Universe and use their life force to make him live forever. He even goes on to say that there are more galaxies out there that he can go to and steal their life energies as well. And when the Universe is completely dry of life, he will simply wait for life to start over again.

 

The more and more I think about it, the more I believe Revan is being deceived and twisted by the Emperor. It would allow for Revan's redemption to make sense.

 

 

Oooooh! That would make sense! That's why he's turned against both the Republic and the Empire! The Emperor transferred his essence into him, and, knowing that now the Empire is under the command of Darth Marr, who, while being War-like, probably does not want to bring about the end of the life in the galaxy due to the fact that that would mean the conquest of the galaxy would be pointless. Therefore, he gets Revan to build an army and this army would wipe out both the Imperial and Republic armies as they were fighting against each other and weakened by the fight. However, the fact that both the Imperial (Darth Imperius/Occlus/Nox, The Emperor's Wrath, the Special Operations Commander (Cipher 9), and The Grand Champion) and Republic Strike Teams (Hero of Typhon, The Squad Leader of Havoc, Barsen'thor, Voidhound) uncover this plan causes both sides to turn their attentions to Revan's threat! It's not the first time that Revan's turned against the galaxy.